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Thread: Formula 1 2017

  1. #201
    Craftsman carlt69's Avatar
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    @jaytip yeah I know, it sounds crazy!!

    @Steveh yeah fingers crossed they can actually be more competitive this season, the more cars fighting for the front the better the racing will be. :-)


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  2. #202
    Grand Master hogthrob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward point View Post
    The team have elected to make a feature of the now-ubiquitous fin

    Holy cow, that side view's like


  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward point View Post
    Some artfully dark photos of the new Williams:

    http://www.pitpass.com/gallery/1907/...aunch-Williams

    The team have elected to make a feature of the now-ubiquitous fin, and have rather optimistically positioned the car alongside some of their Championship winning cars from the past.
    The clipped wing in the second to last shot looks 20 times better.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Backward point View Post
    I'm led to believe that the Mercedes will have a full-size fin when it emerges from the garage in Barcelona on Monday. Briefly, that area is largely unrestricted by the regulations and the fin contributes to straightening the airflow to the rear wing, and directs more air to the wing when the car is in yaw, i.e. when cornering. So there's an aerodynamic advantage, which means that everybody will have them..
    From what I've read and probably miss understood , the dimenions for engine covers dates to the V10 era (2004 from memory) when the FIA increased the minimum size to protect the smaller teams ability to sell the prime advertising space when the trend was for shrinking engine covers.

    Throughout the V8 and now V6 era the dimensions for engine covers has remained the same which is why we've had the "lip" where there's a clear outline of the air box as the engine cover follows its contours, but a thin straight edge protruded out (shown on the launch spec Mercedes engine cover) to comply with the minimum dimensions required.

    I think most teams have chosen to extend the protruding part to create the shark fin for the reasons you mention, but I think ideally the designers would prefer to package the engine cover as tightly as possible without using an extension or fin.


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  5. #205
    Craftsman carlt69's Avatar
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    MercedesF1 have already brought out a revision for their car :lol:

    https://instagram.com/p/BQ8wuAbBK-x/


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  6. #206
    Red Bull, Toro Rosso and Haas have revealed their cars today. Fins are much in evidence.

    For the committed F1 geek, Sky have daily summary programmes and Ted's Notebook every evening at around 9pm during the Barcelona tests.

  7. #207
    Craftsman carlt69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward point View Post
    Red Bull, Toro Rosso and Haas have revealed their cars today. Fins are much in evidence.

    For the committed F1 geek, Sky have daily summary programmes and Ted's Notebook every evening at around 9pm during the Barcelona tests.
    I forgot all about skyF1 I'll have to have a look now

    Thanks


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  8. #208
    Grand Master andrewcregan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward point View Post
    For the committed F1 geek, Sky have daily summary programmes and Ted's Notebook every evening at around 9pm during the Barcelona tests.

    Got it all set to record. Thanks for the heads up

  9. #209
    Grand Master hogthrob's Avatar
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    First day of testing, and McLaren haven't started this year very well at all (just two laps all day, so far).


    Current lap times:

    1 Hamilton Mercedes 1m21.765s
    2 Massa Williams 1m22.076s
    3 Vettel Ferrari 1m22.236s
    4 Bottas Mercedes 1m23.169s
    5 Perez Force India 1m23.709s
    6 Sainz Toro Rosso 1m24.494s
    7 Magnussen Haas 1m25.260s
    8 Ricciardo Red Bull 1m25.666s
    9 Hulkenberg Renault 1m25.966s
    10 Ericsson Sauber 1m26.841s
    Alonso McLaren No time

    http://www.autosport.com/live/commen...1-test-day-one

  10. #210
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    Mercedes the most, >100 problem free, laps and fastest time.
    Oh dear.

  11. #211
    Vettel now a tenth behind Hamilton but on the medium tyre, any guesses what the quickest time is going to be at the end of the test?

    last years first pre season test the quickest was in the 22.8's after 4 days

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by hogthrob View Post
    First day of testing, and McLaren haven't started this year very well at all (just two laps all day, so far).


    Current lap times:

    1 Hamilton Mercedes 1m21.765s
    2 Massa Williams 1m22.076s
    3 Vettel Ferrari 1m22.236s
    4 Bottas Mercedes 1m23.169s
    5 Perez Force India 1m23.709s
    6 Sainz Toro Rosso 1m24.494s
    7 Magnussen Haas 1m25.260s
    8 Ricciardo Red Bull 1m25.666s
    9 Hulkenberg Renault 1m25.966s
    10 Ericsson Sauber 1m26.841s
    Alonso McLaren No time

    http://www.autosport.com/live/commen...1-test-day-one
    McLaren - no time. has a familiar ring about it. I hope poor start to testing does not carry forward to the season like it has in previous years.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by paule23 View Post
    McLaren - no time. has a familiar ring about it. I hope poor start to testing does not carry forward to the season like it has in previous years.
    Alonso eventually completed nearly 30 laps in all after losing most of the day with oil circulation issues, his fastest lap was around 3sec slower than the fastest of the session, set by LH. Not the best start for Honda and McLaren.

  14. #214
    I wouldn't draw any conclusions from pre-season testing. It's the "Phoney war", nobody knows who is running high fuel loads, or simply sandbagging.

    Qualifying in Melbourne will give a better indication of relative performance, but even then it's hardly representative of other circuits, so we won't know for sure until the season is three or four races old.

    Today, most of the "headline" fast laps were set on Soft tyres, although Sebastian Vettel was second fastest in the Ferrari on Mediums. Ferrari and Mercedes comfortably managed 100+ laps, as did the un-retired Felipe Massa in the Williams.

    Mercedes are sharing the driving duties between Hamilton and Bottas by using one in the morning session and one in the afternoon, as they did last year with Rosberg and Hamilton, to avoid over-tiredness. Understandable, as the new regulations demand more of the drivers.

    The rest of the week will see the cars running with intricate arrangements of pitot tubes attached to them, and gallons of flo-vis paint will be spread liberally over the new bodywork, and probably the track surface. One day of this week's test will see the track watered in order for Pirelli to gather information and data on their new wet and intermediate tyres.

    More anon.

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward point View Post
    I wouldn't draw any conclusions from pre-season testing. It's the "Phoney war", nobody knows who is running high fuel loads, or simply sandbagging.
    This is the hope I've had for McLaren during the past five pre-session testing sessions - only to find out everyone else is sandbagging and the delta is worse come Australia than it looked in testing!

  16. #216
    Grand Master hogthrob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward point View Post
    I wouldn't draw any conclusions from pre-season testing.
    You prompted me to have a look and see

    2015 testing
    1. Nico Rosberg, Mercedes, 1m 22.792s, 254 laps
    2. Lewis Hamilton, Mercedes, 1m 23.022s, 124 laps
    3. Valtteri Bottas, Williams, 1m 23.063s, 179 laps
    4. Felipe Massa, Williams, 1m 23.262, 205 laps
    5. Kimi Raikkonen, Ferrari, 1m 23.276s, 216 laps
    6. Sebastian Vettel, Ferrari, 1m 23.469s, 272 laps

    2015 championship
    1 LEWIS HAMILTON GBR MERCEDES 381
    2 NICO ROSBERG GER MERCEDES 322
    3 SEBASTIAN VETTEL GER FERRARI 278
    4 KIMI RÄIKKÖNEN FIN FERRARI 150
    5 VALTTERI BOTTAS FIN WILLIAMS 136
    6 FELIPE MASSA BRA WILLIAMS 121


    2016 testing
    1 Kimi Raikkonen Ferrari 1:22.765 403
    2 Sebastian Vettel Ferrari 1:22.810 0.045 488
    3 Nico Rosberg Mercedes F1 W07 Hybrid 1:23.022 0.257 656
    4 Nico Hulkenberg Force India-Mercedes VJM09 1:23.110 0.345 357
    5 Carlos Sainz Toro Rosso-Ferrari STR11 1:23.134 0.369 515
    6 Felipe Massa Williams-Mercedes FW38 1:23.193 0.428 411

    2016 championship
    1 NICO ROSBERG GER MERCEDES Mercedes car 385
    2 LEWIS HAMILTON GBR MERCEDES Mercedes car 380
    3 DANIEL RICCIARDO AUS RED BULL RACING Red Bull Racing car 256
    4 SEBASTIAN VETTEL GER FERRARI Ferrari car 212
    5 MAX VERSTAPPEN NED RED BULL RACING Red Bull Racing car 204
    6 KIMI RÄIKKÖNEN FIN FERRARI Ferrari car 186


    So while 2015 was a fair indication of which cars were good, Mercedes were clearly sandbagging last year.
    Last edited by hogthrob; 27th February 2017 at 20:54.

  17. #217
    Happy to be proven wrong however I'm reasonably confident that sand-bagging doesn't really happen anymore. I can understand the perceived benefits of not showing your hand until as late as possible though, in doing so, you wouldn't be pushing the car to its reliability limits and gaining the data that's there to be given. Pushing a car in simulators isn't the same as doing it for real on a circuit. Fuel loads can also be estimated however only after dissecting data from multiple sessions, though it requires a level of mathematical understanding that flies well over my head. At some point the teams will be doing full race simulations, in such instances they'll have no option other than to start with full tanks.
    Merc have, from memory at least, dominated test sessions for the last 2-3 years, why would any other team sand-bag behind them? From a PR, sponsorship, team moral and raw data gathering POV it doesn't make any sense. We also have a brand new spec tyres for this season, teams won't learn about them if they're not pushed to their limits.

    Edit - just read hogthrob's post above. I still don't fully understand why a team would sand-bag, even though the '16 figures suggest that Merc might have been. It doesn't make any (medium/long term) sense for Ferrari to have achieved their times using an illegally spec'd car either. If the fastest '16 test times were achieved under identical circumstances then that doesn't explain Merc's race pace dominance (unless they were sand-bagging), perhaps these fastest test times were under different fuel/tyre/spec/track temp etc conditions?
    Last edited by CardShark; 27th February 2017 at 21:49.

  18. #218
    Only time will tell. I'm in awe of Gordon's devotion to the cause in looking up and posting the comparisons above!

    There's a fine line between showing your hand before the first race and obtaining meaningful data which will enable the teams to establish the baseline performance of their new cars and having enough data to confirm that the windtunnel results accurately reflect on-track performance.

    The Barcelona tests are also vital for Pirelli, as the tyres for this year are completely new, and the objectives set by the FIA and FOM are to have tyres which will allow the drivers to push without having to "manage" the tyre degredation.

  19. #219
    ^^ Agreed, on all counts. Was going to look up previous season's test times myself though I CBA...

    Even if the '16 times were set under identical circumstances with most of the milage being achieved on race weekends a team's ability to develop a car through the season is vital. Sure, to be the fastest in testing is a great start, though it means diddly squat if you can't progress as fast as your competition from there.
    Last edited by CardShark; 27th February 2017 at 22:09.

  20. #220
    A chilly start to Day 2 at Barcelona, with the track temperature down to around 12c.

    Anybody having a slow day at work can keep up with today's activities here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/formula1/39046208

  21. #221
    Or, if you don't want to do any work at all, here are some photos from Day 1:

    http://imgur.com/a/CFnvn

  22. #222
    Grand Master Foxy100's Avatar
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    Sniff Petrol sums it up quite nicely

    http://sniffpetrol.com/2017/02/28/me.../#.WLVQTxCLT5I
    "A man of little significance"

  23. #223
    Grand Master hogthrob's Avatar
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    The figures were a fairly simple c&p from formula1.com; it wasn't a huge amount of work.


    Is it possible that some teams use setups that allow them to do quick lap times, in order to generate publicity, in the same way they used to in qualifying?


    A few years ago, didn't McLaren complete pre-season testing with a suspension part that was incorrectly and illegally fitted, which had the effect of improving their lap times?

  24. #224
    Hamilton 1:20.983....If Mercedes are sand-bagging the others are in the s...

    Seriously though with the new tyres this year as well I would have thought less likely see people holding back but its much easier for
    Merc and Ferrari when they seem to have the reliability straight out of the box to also go for a quick 1 lap time.

  25. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by TBKBABAB View Post
    Hamilton 1:20.983....If Mercedes are sand-bagging the others are in the s...

    Seriously though with the new tyres this year as well I would have thought less likely see people holding back but its much easier for
    Merc and Ferrari when they seem to have the reliability straight out of the box to also go for a quick 1 lap time.
    Hamilton did that time on Supersofts. So far, Ferrari haven't even used Softs.

    Confusing, this testing lark.

  26. #226
    Ian, I tried watch the Sky report last night, but didn't hear what tyres or lap (hotlap or long run) Massa set his time on?


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  27. #227
    Soft tyres, Matt. No other info than that, I'm afraid. Williams seem to be "managing expectations" in their press releases, but didn't have a bad day yesterday. I'm not sure how long it will take for Paddy Lowe to start to make a difference.

  28. #228
    News just in...

    Williams will not run any more today. Lance Stroll had an "off" after 12 laps, and the damage will take the rest of the day to fix.

    Good job his Dad's put lots of money into the team.

  29. #229
    More news, this time relating to the hydraulic suspension controversy:

    http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/op...l&utm_content=

  30. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Backward point View Post
    News just in...

    Williams will not run any more today. Lance Stroll had an "off" after 12 laps, and the damage will take the rest of the day to fix.

    Good job his Dad's put lots of money into the team.
    Stroll's stroll into the gravel trap...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XISo-RqufMQ

  31. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Backward point View Post
    Soft tyres, Matt
    Cheers Ian. Hopefully I'll be able to concentrate on the Sky program a bit more tonight.

  32. #232
    The end of Day 2. Raikkonen fastest on Softs, Hamilton second on Supersofts, A good day for both Ferrari and Mercedes, 100+ laps for each, with Mercedes looking bulletproof. Bottas was back in the car for the afternoon, and ran a full race simulation.

    Meanwhile at McLaren it was another day of mechanical frustration, with Stoffel Vandoorne managing 40 laps, finishing ahead of Lance Stroll in the Williams, although the Williams was damaged after Stroll's spin with only 12 laps completed, and new parts are being taken to the circuit overnight from the Williams factory. According to the BBC's report, the only damage was to the front wing, and if that is so, it's surprising that Williams didn't have a spare.

    Jolyon Palmer only emerged from the garage for an installation lap before the lunch break, but managed some meaningful running in the afternoon.

    So a mixed day, with the better-resourced teams able to get down to the job of running as many laps as possible, and learning about the demands of the new cars while others continue to struggle with reliability issues.

  33. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Backward point View Post
    The end of Day 2. Raikkonen fastest on Softs, Hamilton second on Supersofts, A good day for both Ferrari and Mercedes, 100+ laps for each, with Mercedes looking bulletproof. Bottas was back in the car for the afternoon, and ran a full race simulation.
    Have you seen any long run analysis yet? I'm intrigued by the Ferrari pace, but suspect it's Mercedes sandbagging. I'm also intrigued with Red Bull, I don't think they're as far back as the time suggests.



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  34. #234
    I'm struggling to find any meaningful long-run analysis, Matt. If anybody knows where I can find something, let me know.

    More long runs today, with Vettel covering 139 laps, which is more than two race distances. Ferrari and Mercedes are really getting the hard yards in, and must be racking up vast amounts of data. On the other hand, although McLaren have had a better day today, with Alonso getting 72 laps in, they have had a humiliating time so far and at least one failed Honda engine has been airfreighted back to Japan for urgent investigation. Before the restrictions on testing they would have gone to Silverstone, posted security guards on all access points to the circuit, and done their testing in private. Now, with the advent of what is essentially public testing, their failures are beamed around the world, and it must be hard for any team to remain motivated in the circumstances.

    Similarly, Lance Stroll has now had three "offs" in two days, and when you're a young driver in your first public outing in a Formula 1 car, that must have an effect. There are calls to re-name the "Has Maldonado Crashed Today?" website.

    It's the final day tomorrow, so expect more long runs and the occasional headline grabbing quick lap on low fuel and soft tyres to keep the team motivated and the sponsors happy.

  35. #235
    Craftsman carlt69's Avatar
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    Hmmm I've only just noticed the tiny extra rear wing.

    They look awful and should be banned!


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  36. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by carlt69 View Post
    Hmmm I've only just noticed the tiny extra rear wing.

    They look awful and should be banned!


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    The "T-Wings" as they are known, along with the "shark-fin" were discussed in an interesting interview with Ross Brawn by Ted Kravitz on Sky last evening. Both were described by Brawn as "an unintended consequence" of the new regulations, and will be discussed by the FIA and FOM before Melbourne.

    With so much publicity centred around the improved, more aggressive appearance of the new 2017 cars it seems careless to have them disfigured by these aberrations, and I suspect that they might not be a permanent feature.

  37. #237
    Craftsman carlt69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward point View Post
    The "T-Wings" as they are known, along with the "shark-fin" were discussed in an interesting interview with Ross Brawn by Ted Kravitz on Sky last evening. Both were described by Brawn as "an unintended consequence" of the new regulations, and will be discussed by the FIA and FOM before Melbourne.

    With so much publicity centred around the improved, more aggressive appearance of the new 2017 cars it seems careless to have them disfigured by these aberrations, and I suspect that they might not be a permanent feature.
    I am watching g the repeat of that interview now.

    I do hope they get the boot :-)


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  38. #238
    It was a really good interview. Ross Brawn is one of the more measured and intelligent inhabitants of the F1 paddock, and he now has some real influence. The sport is in safer hands.

  39. #239
    Craftsman carlt69's Avatar
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    Yeah it did give me hope for F1 again, Ross has to be the best man for that job


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  40. #240
    It's the final day of the first pre-season test, and it's a wet one.

    It's actually a wet one at the behest of Pirelli*, who needed track time on their Wet and Intermediate tyres. The teams (and drivers) haven't actually entered into the spirit of things yet, and are keeping their enthusiasm well under control. Stoffel Vandoorne has done most laps (not very many) in the McLaren, as they desperately need all the running that they can get. I actually feel sorry for Eric Boullier. He seems like a decent chap, he's obviously very clever, and he's spent his time in F1 either trying to fight off the creditors at Lotus or having to explain why McLaren are so crap. I do hope that somebody gives him a job where he can just concentrate on running a team, because I'm sure that he'll do it very well.

    Williams won't be running today. The reason why Williams won't be running today is that Lance "Maldonado" Stroll damaged the chassis beyond immediate repair yesterday. Felipe Massa can spend the day contemplating what he would have been doing right now had he not become unretired.


    * I just read this again, and realised that I implied that Pirelli can control the weather. On this occasion, several large tankers of water were involved.
    Last edited by Backward point; 2nd March 2017 at 10:43.

  41. #241
    Whatever Stroll did to the Williams it was enough to require a new monocoque, which has arrived in Barcelona:



    Most of the transporters and equipment will remain at the circuit for the second test, which starts next Tuesday.

    Nothing really earth-shattering to report. Bottas on a long run, Raikkonen fastest from Verstappen, and a relatively trouble free day for McLaren.

  42. #242
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    There's been a bit of talk about the shark fins, and the general consensus is they are ugly. I recall seeing these appear on cars a few years back and then they went away again, presumably as a result of some rule change. Is it possible we could have a similar late rule change again prior to the season? The cars really do look shocking with the fins.

  43. #243
    As a side note, Sports Prototypes such as LMP1 and LMP2 cars are legally obliged to have them (I think!), something to do with aero stability and a reduction in the chance of flipping as they have a very large, and flat, underfloor surface area. The F1 cars have them only because the designers generally deem the feature to give an aero advantage though the regulations have left a bit of a hole when it comes to what is and isn't acceptable around that part of the car.

  44. #244
    Grand Master thieuster's Avatar
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    Surely one of the most beautiful cars ever made.




    An icon.

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  45. #245
    Master alfat33's Avatar
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    Formula 1 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by thieuster View Post
    Surely one of the most beautiful cars ever made.

    An icon.

    Menno
    Very true, but maybe even a little better without the fin?


  46. #246
    Grand Master andrewcregan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward point View Post
    It was a really good interview. Ross Brawn is one of the more measured and intelligent inhabitants of the F1 paddock, and he now has some real influence. The sport is in safer hands.
    Yes, I thoroughly enjoyed it too, and was delighted that Sky had the sense to make it a full feature.

  47. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Backward point View Post
    The "T-Wings" as they are known, along with the "shark-fin" were discussed in an interesting interview with Ross Brawn by Ted Kravitz on Sky last evening. Both were described by Brawn as "an unintended consequence" of the new regulations, and will be discussed by the FIA and FOM before Melbourne.

    With so much publicity centred around the improved, more aggressive appearance of the new 2017 cars it seems careless to have them disfigured by these aberrations, and I suspect that they might not be a permanent feature.
    I would hope they will be discussed ahead of the next test (but given that it's only a week away would suggest that it's not possible) and therefore if the decision is taken to amend the current regulations to outlaw them teams will be able to run the next test without them.

    That said it might make the first race more interesting if the teams prep with one aero-bodywork and then suddenly have to race with something different!

  48. #248
    I suspect that if the teams believe there's a prospect of the fins and t-wings being banned before Melbourne they will be running wind-tunnel and CFD tests without them right now, and will turn up on Tuesday in Barcelona with two sets of bodywork.

  49. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward point View Post
    I'm struggling to find any meaningful long-run analysis, Matt. If anybody knows where I can find something, let me know.

    More long runs today, with Vettel covering 139 laps, which is more than two race distances. Ferrari and Mercedes are really getting the hard yards in, and must be racking up vast amounts of data. On the other hand, although McLaren have had a better day today, with Alonso getting 72 laps in, they have had a humiliating time so far and at least one failed Honda engine has been airfreighted back to Japan for urgent investigation. Before the restrictions on testing they would have gone to Silverstone, posted security guards on all access points to the circuit, and done their testing in private. Now, with the advent of what is essentially public testing, their failures are beamed around the world, and it must be hard for any team to remain motivated in the circumstances.

    Similarly, Lance Stroll has now had three "offs" in two days, and when you're a young driver in your first public outing in a Formula 1 car, that must have an effect. [b] There are calls to re-name the "Has Maldonado Crashed Today?" website.[b]

    It's the final day tomorrow, so expect more long runs and the occasional headline grabbing quick lap on low fuel and soft tyres to keep the team motivated and the sponsors happy.
    Looks like it happened!

    Has Stroll Crashed Yet?

  50. #250

    Fantasy F1?

    Not starting a separate thread as it kind of petered out last year but for those interested, I've set up a Fantasy F1 league again!

    Go here: http://www.pfrl.net login or register and create a team. This is the website you are looking for...



    Then join the Individual Private League "GPGuide.com 2017"
    password "gpguide.com"



    Max two teams per entrant. There may be a small prize this year, from GPGuide.com*, but more on that later. Anyone can join, please feel free to pass it on to interested people.

    Paul

    *As some might remember, GPGuide.com is a website I co-own that maintains all the F1 statistical history, track layouts, times, drivers, tyres, lap records and so on, on the basis that, well, someone should
    Last edited by Tokyo Tokei; 4th March 2017 at 06:27.

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