Inconstancy throughout. Seems as if there maybe some history with a particular steward though.
What about KR turning his wheel in...would have been a collision had MV not moved over, pushing all the wheels over the white line.
I think this sums it up well:Mercedes’ Niki Lauda waded into the debate by saying: ”They shouldn't intervene in situations like that. It was a normal overtaking move. You can't be more stupid than that."
Interesting point of view. Bottas must be an amazing driver to be so consistently several tenths of a second per lap behind the guy in the same car. I can't get my head around Mercedes' strategy being for him to finish so far behind the Ferraris though, perhaps you could elaborate on that.Originally Posted by aldfort
Anyone else spot the massive bird shadow going over the track?
I only watched the YouTube highlights of the GP (usually enough for me these days), but I know in the Sportscar races (both WEC and IMSA) that the track limits are a little flexible at the CotA.
There are corners where drivers leave the marked track, but are not deemed to have gained an advantage by doing so, so everyone does, frequently, whilst others are considered advantageous cuts, so are penalised.
This could be part of the 'issue' here.
That said, in a photo posted earlier by 'thieuster', you can see Hamilton's left front wheel is (just) still on the track, whilst Verstappen's is not.
My understanding is that any part of a wheel still on the 'grey bit' (however marginal) is permissible.
M
Last edited by snowman; 23rd October 2017 at 15:06.
yes.
Yes...the 'bird' was big and yellow.
American eagle? :)
Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!
Motorsport.com article here - https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/l...9285/?tp=2&s=1
So, in short, it's Lauda's opinion that the white lines don't define the circuit and that it's absolutely A-OK to cut a corner (clearly defined by a white line and having all 4 wheels out-of-bounds) in order to overtake a competitor for track position. What rubbish.
Sounds like Rallycross to me
It is the inconstancy throughout the day which has caused the issue. Had all those who strayed off the circuit, overtaking or not (the corners were being cut by all and sundry - 4 wheels out-of-bounds- advantage 1/100th-I don't know. But probably an advantage, otherwise why do it) it might be more palatable.
I'm not suggesting NL is right, it is just an opinion he has expressed along with many others, who unlikle me, are not arm chair experts.
In most cases corners arent being cut, the drivers are running wide hence have to cover a longer distance although maintaining a faster speed
but not really gaining an advantage.
As far as I am concerned if you 'cut' a corner and gain an advantage that will always and has always been penalised and the drivers know this. I am sure if this had happened
earlier in the race RB would have told him to give the place back and then of course he could have tried to pass again.
In this case wasnt any time to do that so just moan about it later and see if you can get away with it....you wont.
That's a nice one.arm chair experts
Let's try to get things in perspective - and the fact that English isn't my first language is a disadvantage now, I know...
- A young man rushes forwards with speeds we never have experienced ourselves, under conditions we've never experienced ourselves.
- For 90 mins he has been busy overtaking countless cars (including the 'stay behinds') and ensures himself from a position on the podium.
- He even managed to stay clear of a Ferrari, his Nemesis for the last 1.5 season.
- When he steps out of his car, he's over the moon and the adrenaline is splashing behing his eyeballs.
- Without any consultation or hearing (as agreed after Mexico!!!) the same Steward (Mr Connelly) outs him
- He's sent off like a schoolboy with the whole world watching. (I remember the same room with angry team mates / drivers tossing caps around).
Then the so called arm chair experts come up with: "Well, he shouldn't have done this or that..." or "...unprofessional..." Come on, be realistic. I can't ask you how you would have reacted - simply because you haven't been in the same situation. But surely, it's easier said than done when you're in a situation like that. I remember other drivers cursing... (eg. Vettel on the radio in Mexico)
Personally, I think that MV's responses is in line with what we want from him: a fighter up until the very end, up to the last yard - even after the race. When he overtook the Ferrari, he could hear the cheering from the stands over the noise of the engine. When this enthusiasm is blown out of the water by one single person with a questionable and inconsequent decision, it's hard to sell that you should fork out a ton of money for a ticket in '18 - and to experience something that no-one (bar one) has seen as a rule breaking moment.
Connelly should voluntarily step down and have himself replaced. He will always carry an aura of questionable calls without a hearing. Every next call from him will be questioned - especially when in 'favour' of Ferrari or at the expense of MV.
M
Hear hear.
Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!
No, but I did spot the bird casting a massive shadow with her ample charms when Martin was doing the grid walk, she was one of the grid girls stood in front of the car. You could see the camera man just trying to keep her in shot
I'm afraid there isn't just one person who thought it was a rule breaking incident, most people do. Overtaking outside of track limits is against the rules, there's no question of that and it's been punished before. The problem is only a question of consistency, other moves should have been punished as well as Max's.
Last edited by watchcollector1; 23rd October 2017 at 19:22.
There must be some kind of special award for this at 'Sports Personality Of The Year'.No, but I did spot the bird casting a massive shadow with her ample charms when Martin was doing the grid walk, she was one of the grid girls stood in front of the car. You could see the camera man just trying to keep her in shot
Perhaps not one single person. But contrair to people the opinion of people who are (were) skilled drivers: Lauda - on TV, Luyendijk, Andretti on Twitter. I don't know Connelly's racing pedigree tbh.
Agreed on the inconsistency of the call. I've just read that LH used the curbs during his qualification laps. As an example of inconsistent (or the lack of) judgement.
Stepping away from the discussion: Sure, we can condemn MV or other drivers about foul language etc. But... when we're watching 90 mins of a boring high speed parade without overtaking or drama, we're not satisfied with what we see and hear. This sort of racing and rumbles after the race takes you to the edge of your seat and makes watching and commenting a fun thing to do!
Menno
Warwick Banks used to peddle Mini Coopers in the touring car races of the period. I met him once, I helped man a Mini Cooper Register stand at the NEC back in about 87. Nice older chap (I was 18 so everyone seemed old) came and chatted very happily about the cars, seemed to know his stuff. After he left someone said, do you know who that was? No says I. Warwick Banks. When met with the stare that says "that's nice, who?" they went on to explain why he'd come to the stand, I think he's honorary member.
Anyway he probably won the Breitling or had it new anyway.
David
You can use the curbs, but you may get penalised if you go completely over it to gain an advantage.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
I have watched this over take about 10 times and irrespective of the rule I struggle to see why Max was penalised.
the real shame is that it made bugger all difference to the constructor or driver championship. Plus I doubt Kimi cared whether he came 3 or 4th, especially as he had to let Vettel through.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
For these interested in the law https://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2015/10/...2016-revealed/
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Does this look like a helicopter shadow to you?
Nope.
Hahahahahahaaaaa........excellent!
You say that you struggle to see why Max was penalised and then post the rules quite clearly stating why he should have been.
Ref Garry Connelly being responsible for the decision to reprimand Verstappen (not your post Andy, another one) - Connelly wasn't the only steward present, the decision wasn't solely his. To lay the blame entirely at his feet is unfair and unjust.
I do understand the points being made about the consistency and clarity of what is and is not acceptable with regards to exceeding track limits. The rules appear to be reasonably tight on this though it also feels as if there's a grey area with what constitutes gaining an advatage and the subsequent ruling thereafter.
Which, in that case, strikes me that no other steward present said: "Hold on, it's Mexico all over again. The way we do this now, is not what we agreed upon last year in Mexico!"Connelly wasn't the only steward present, the decision wasn't solely his.
M
As I said, I watched the incident a number of times. Max leaves track limits a couple of times before he catches Kimi. However was he penalised for this or the actual overtake on Kimi. If the later, then I would say its marginal. If the former, then it's unfair simply because lots of other exceeded track limits on those corners.
Anywhoo to late now, but hopefully we will start seeing a bit of consistency moving forward.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Pmsl.
I spotted a background article on a Dutch motoring website with the stewards of last Sunday.Connelly wasn't the only steward present, the decision wasn't solely his. To lay the blame entirely at his feet is unfair and unjust.
- Charley Whiting (off course)
- Gary Connelly. Australian, from the Global Institute for Motorsport Safety (holding a position on finance)
- Ex driver Mika Salo, Finland (...) who made it to the podium twice in his career - for Ferrari (...). Also team mate of Jos Verstappen at Tyrrell-Ford in 97
- Radovan Novak, Czech Republic. In motorsport since 1963 and longtime chairman of the Czech motorsport federation.
There are more stewards on the FIA list. According to the Dutch website, every steward can make his appearance up to 5x/season. Most stewards operate less than 3x/year. Not Connelly, he's making full use of his 'steward-agenda'. MV's anger has also to with the fact that on every occasion where he was penalized during the 16 and 17 season, Connelly had a seat on the stewards' chair.
Some of Connelly's vs Verstappen highlights:
- Japan Oct 16: Verstappen was second after defending his position against Hamilton. There was a stewards' meeting to judge MV's actions seeing the footage. 3-1 voted in favour of MV. Connelly (the 1-vote) went to Mercedes urging them to file a protest. Mercedes refused to file a protest. Connelly was ordered to the FIA HQ for a meeting about his actions.
- The already mentioned Mexico incident where there's also an inconsequent ruling from the stewards
- And in the 2015 season, Max got 8 marks on his license for various actions on three circuits. Two of these with Connelly as steward.
So yes, I begin to understand why Verstappen gets furious when he's gets a 5 sec penalty when Connelly is acting steward. For this year Connelly and Verstappen won't meet again; C's 'stint' for this year is over.
Menno
Did Max deserve his points in 2015? Yep, certainly did. I don’t care who the stewards were, he deserved it.
This race? I just don’t know, but looking at the particular pass, I can see why they thought Max was taking the piss. The difficulty is the consistency, but even then they have far more information than I have. And I still think Max’s overtake was a cheeky punt up the inside.
Connolly is one of four permanent stewards, so it’s unsurprising that MV has been up in front of him several times.
Please don’t let this descend into “is it becoz I is Dutch”
I never said that his '15 penalties were undeserved. No-one mentioned that; it's only that they go back a long way. It's the '16 Japan/Mercedes incident that triggered the whole thing. Even Mercedes, including Hamilton considered that this act was foul play. So did the FIA (Source: Autobild, October 2016)
That's never said or expressed.“is it becoz I is Dutch”
Second (side step, I know): when people are running out of arguments, they come up with imitating accents or similar. Did you ever notice that? Apart from the fact that Max speaks German, Dutch, English and French; the result of Belgian & Dutch primary and secondary education - that's more than most Brits are taught at school, I think. Something I am - as a retired teacher- very proud off.
M
Menno, I was alluding to Hamilton's "is it becoz I'm black" comments from a year or so back, when he (incorrectly I thought) saw victimisation. I think the same is happening here with Max; regardless of who the stewards were in the past few years, he's earned his points. Arguably, the same happened on Sunday - we can certainly discuss the consistency aspect, but I think that even within the context of racers going over the lines at CoTA, his overtake on Kimi was pretty egregious.
So for Max and his supporters to have a go at the stewards and to start bringing up the past seems somewhat duplicitous; he needs to focus on why he was punished, not who did the punishing. This is not to say that all stewards make all decisions well; clearly, they don't. But without them you'd have anarchy, and for Max to suggest that stewards are idiots (and much worse in Dutch, I understand), or that people should boycott F1 is childish. OK, he's 20, but he's enabled in his whinging by Christian Horner, a man who knows how to turn on the crocodile tears.
We need a bit of character in the sport, any sport that is.
It's all so bloody professional and sports personalities are boring old farts to say the least.
Now this is not because of Max, but because, as sort of an oldtimer, I really used to enjoy people like John McEnroe and Ilie Nastase instead of the clean cut well behaved "gentlemen" of today.
Motorsports the same, a bit of fire and emotion, it belongs in the sport, and as Menno stated, gives the punters a reason to discuss and argue :)
Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!
Nastase is not a person to use as a good example for pretty much anything. He's a sexist, racist dinosaur, the sort of person that in the 1970s people called "a real man's man" or "a bit of a wild one" but nowadays you just think of as a hopeless embarrassment.
I agree with that, and I think F1 is getting its mojo back in that regard. There was a period that Senna, Eddie Irvine and Jos Verstappen were the only real personalities on the grid, throwing tantrums and helmets in the sanitised 90s. We got the Damon Hills, Mika Hakkinens, guys who could bore the pants back onto the pitgirls.
Now, we've Vettel smashing his car around, Max being a petulant child, Lewis doing whatever the **** he wants, Kimi not giving a ****, Magnusson and his one man mission to piss everyone off, Alonso and his one-liners, the two Force Indias punting each other off at every opportunity.
But no, we criticise Vettel for being emotional, Max for being young, Hamilton and Kimi for not caring what you think and Alonso for embarrassing his employers. Let's have a grid full of Damon Hills, middle aged, boring, reliable, low risk, toeing the corporate line and not upsetting the sponsors.
I believe not enough people are mentioning that MV only went 4 wheels off when KR gave a steer to the right and forced him to do the same to avoid a collision. Now I am not suggesting there would have been one as KR is better than that but those guys react in a nanosecond and he HAD to take evasive action.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Agreed, an observation I too made.
That's pretty much as I see it.
Yup, I agree with this as well - a little bit of conflict adds a degree of frisson to the sport and certainly provides a talking point.
What stands in Max's favour is that he is such an obvious talent behind the wheel, much like McEnroe was with a racquet. Lesser drivers/players wouldn't, for the want of a better turn of phrase, "get away" with voicing their opinions in the way that MV and JM do/did. Those with less talent are generally told to get back in their respective boxes a lot swifter than those who are skilled at what they do.
He left the track to get past. Without leaving the track, he couldn't get past. It's as simple as that.
Everyone knows, and has for years, that there are certain things that always result in being penalised. If you leave the track to complete the overtake, 99% of the time the team are on the radio with instructions to surrender the position. Couldn't be done in this case, so a 5s penalty was completely appropriate.
Tracking limits have been a fluid concept over recent years, with the do's and donts often evolving over a race weekend. There are areas where it's a strict no, and they're enforced.
But bypassing the apex to complete an overtake has always been a no. If that isn't enforced, how can a driver defend there position?
Had it been lap 7, he'd have been told by the team to hand back the position, and no one would bat an eyelid.
Thank you for your insight. And what about the rule that says a driver cannot force another off the track?
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
err, its car racing, isn't that called defending the position?
MV cheated and was punished,
personally I thing they should have six inch kerbs on the track limits, then the result of trying it on would be a broken car.
Let's stop overtaking at all, and finish the race driving like a train in te starting positions of the drivers.
Can't go wrong I'd say.
Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!
there are no rules against overtaking on the track!
Last edited by adrianw; 26th October 2017 at 09:17.
I'd like to see this too but it's never going to happen.
But you can't have six inch high kerbs for safety reasons. Maybe a kerb should be six inches in width and not six foot+ wide, that way if you stick four wheels off the track you'll be struggling on grass.
I know!
But, it's just soooo dangerous, that overtaking stuff.
Safety first.
Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!
I would have no problem with this
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Certainly the best way to stop it would be to ensure that going off track is slower without being any more dangerous.
I’m not sure how though; watered grass perhaps or some other low grip surface.
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