I can imagine it might not suit everyone. I have been filming Rugby League (my other love) for the past 20 years, mainly in the UK, but I also fly to Catalans once or twice a year. I'd give it up in an instant to film and get paid in F1 though. I am convinced I wouldnt move from Year 1 above !!
Stuart
It is: today the manufacturer would not get the points if the driver's points for that race were voided. In a system that only deducts points from the party at fault as was suggested (team or driver) the scenario I described could occur. Add to that the difficulty of determining who is responsible for what in an infringement.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
No, because the scenario you gave (or at least that's how it read to me) was asking one of the drivers in your team to take another team off track, allowing the others driver in the team to take the win and get the points. If that is indeed what you are saying, then they would still get the first place points despite their second driver receiving a penalty for forcing another car off the track.
Last edited by jaytip; 7th January 2017 at 14:08.
I see. I never said the driver took himself off the track at all, just that he pushed the B driver off the track. In my example the driver from A finishes the race, the driver from B doesn't (I played it on 1 driver to make it simple...)
Also the taking out request happens before the start, not over the radio.
True but the point was that the team could give orders that would penalise the driver without preventing them from benefitting from the offence. It was purely hypothetical and just to illustrate that blaming the team only for an engine replacement was as unfair as blaming a pilot for something ordered by the team. In other words, in my view the status quo in this matter is fine in regards to points, and the matter of multiple changes in one go as in this year has been addressed.
Hypothesising about a potential "professional foul" ignores the fact that the Stewards of the Meeting, along with the FIA, have access to full telemetry, which shows such parameters as steering angle, throttle position and brake pressure. Combined with in-car footage and additional video evidence, fault or blame can be easily established.
Any driver or team causing a crash to manipulate a race result could look forward to punitive punishment, which can range from points deduction through fines to exclusion from races and/or Championships.
Formula 1 is the most-watched global sport apart from the Olympic Games, and the FIA is well aware of their role in ensuring that the sport remains above reproach.
It was precisely that which got Briattori banned for life and Nelson Piquet junior rendered unemployable IIRC.
Yes and no. Yes it was team order (to help F. Alonso) but Piquet Jr just threw himself out, no other driver involved. And it came to light because Piquet opened his mouth. Twice stupid. Briattore and Symonds had the ban overturned.
But in this case it would be more akin to a Schumacher, Senna, etc. where the other driver takes out his direct opponent rather than defend legally and risk being passed.
But my example was never meant to be a likely scenario, just a way to refute the fact that punishment for drivers and constructors should be separated, with one not affecting the other.
And no telemetry would ever catch a team instructing his pilot before the race to push another car out if it came to try a pass: it will show quite clearly the driver committing the professional foul but there would be no way to link this to a team order. As things are, the problem doesn't exist as both parties (driver and constructor) would have points deducted, on top of any penalties that could come on top.
Teams are announcing launch dates for their 2017 contenders, and so far we have:
21 Feb Renault
22 Feb Force India
23 Feb Mercedes
24 Feb Ferrari
Don't be surprised if, in these more austere times, many of the teams announce their new cars by whipping the dust sheets off in their garage at Barcelona on the 27 February, the first day of pre-season testing. Gone are the days of the no-expense-spared junket at some flash hotel, with the champagne piled high and the caviar flowing.
In other news, Honda are believed to have re-packaged their power unit, presumably having agreed with McLaren that the latter's insistence on "size zero" packaging for the rear of the car was forcing engineering compromises, which in turn resulted in reliability issues. No details as yet, but my money's on something which bears more than a passing resemblance to the Mercedes layout. The previous Honda unit placed the MGU-H (which recovers energy from the turbo) adjacent to the exhaust (or hot) side of the turbo, which never seemed like a good idea.
Confirmation of what was pretty much known anyway, Paddy Lowe has left Merc to join Williams.
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/lo...1-team-864295/
It's not yet confirmed as to if Valtteri Bottas will leave Williams for Merc.
I think I read somewhere that Honda's 2017 engine is pretty much a new design. Although I am a merc supporter, I would like to see a bit more of a threat coming from other teams.
TBH I was surprised at how poor the Honda power unit performed last year, because I always thought that once HRC turned their mind to something, budgets went straight out of the window. Their R&D department was always top notch, yet they couldnt seem to get the last engine right.
Maybe, just maybe, this years model will be the one they have been planning for a few years and the last years one was just a stop gap till they unleash the beast,
Stuart
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^^^^^ God I hope you are right. I'm a McLaren fan and it's heartbreaking seeing them so far down the field.
Are Honda starting this new engine from scratch or is it just the turbo layout that has changed?
I'm not 100% sure what it is. I found the article on my phones Sky Sports app under F1 a few days
http://www.skysports.com/share/10719864
It suggests that for 2017 they will have a 'completely restructured engine'. What that means I'm unsure, maybe a few tweaks on the original powerplant, or hopefully a total new lump which isnt a GP2 engine
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Hmm so starting from scratch... another few years of development ahead then. There's no reason to think Honda can leap ahead of the top 3 teams with a new engine with no testing on it. I think the engine formula will change before Honda can beat Ferrari, Red Bull and Mercedes and maybe one other team. Hope I'm wrong. There's nothing more cool than watching McLaren develop during the season and I hope Honda give them a decent engine to allow that.
Mmm, well let me throw something out there. Honda came in with little time to prepare and develop. What if the 2017 engine is the one they have been throwing all the yen at behind closed doors for quite a few years. I mean, why would Alonso stay, he's a competitor and wants to win, and make no mistake, if Merc wanted him they would have bought his contract. Perhaps he has had someone give him a heads up about the 'new' engine. Pure speculation and wishful thinking perhaps, but what if ??
Stuart
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While it's a nice thought, I highly doubt it. It costs tens of millions to develop an F1 engine, I really can't see Honda bringing out a stopgap engine while working on a new one for 2017. After all, they started development on the current (last season) engine a whole year before they came into F1.
Watch out for Renault this year.
They had a stealth one make series mule running last year which was essentially running the "current engine and tyres" with a GT body. No mention of the series or a GT challenge emerging. Was it a free year of testing for 2017??
I'm wondering why the supposed Bottas to merc switch is taking so long. I know there will be contract negotiations, but really, at that level i would think its relatively clear, as all the parties know the others and their capabilities. Should be just a case of hey wanna drive this car for £x yes or no?? SIMPLES. Unless there are other things stirring, i mean, who wouldnt want to see what Button could do in a merc. Bottas is a seasoned F1 driver, but I cant help thinking he'd always be a yes man to the merc hierarchy, and I dont see him as a long term prospect, or even first second or third choice if the field was open.
Stuart
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Do you have a link for this? I would have thought that any form of "stealth" testing would be severely frowned upon. "Current engine and tyres"? As in 2016 spec? Wouldn't have thought they'd gain much info for 2017 considering the raft of changes to the regulations. Where would they get 2017 spec tyres from anyway? Certainly not Pirelli!
I'm glad to see the F1 thread back again
an interesting read so far and as previously mentioned it's good to see some of the more insightful posters return
Looking forward to see how the regulation and driver changes affect the teams,
I hope the wider cars and braking distances don't have too much of a detrimental effect on overtaking
Having only followed F1 with interest for the last 10 years I've always rooted for Mclaren and the British drivers Hamilton but mainly Button,
I'm not entirely sure where my allegiance will be this year although I do hope Mclaren and Hamilton/Palmer do well.
As cinnabull mentioned I'm also disappointed with the change to the provisional calendar regarding Singapore and Malaysia,
I was looking forward to another trip to Singapore but with the date change I'll have to settle for Sepang,
roll on March for the season start and for October...
Ian
Nigel Roebuck's (final) column in Motor Sport this month is interesting, it's mostly about his annual lunch with Martin Brundle and they mostly talk about Hamilton and Rosberg.
What occurred to me while I was reading it was that Brundle and free-to-air coverage were the main reasons I lost interest in F1. A few years ago I blagged a ticket at a preview of the Senna film and various people stood up at the end to talk about their relationship with him, including Brundle. He spoke for 10 minutes and was completely engaging. I really like his commentary and don't think the BBC (and Channel 4) have come anywhere close to replacing him. I'm reluctant though to pay the cash for the Sky F1 but I might look into it and see if it resparks my interest.
"A man of little significance"
I refuse to pay for viewing commercials.
If it is not free reception then tant pis. I don't care what it is. The worst thing about not seeing sports or what live on tv is me having more time for other things in life first hand.
No doubt tv will get ever more commercial and that will simply mean equally less time with it switched on. For the news et al it is all national propaganda and demagogy so nothing missed there either.
Others may disagree (which is fine) but I'm a big fan of Brundle's analysis and it was one of the deciding factors in subscribing to Sky for F1 back in 2012. For my money Sky make a good job of the coverage, and while I'd rather have all races and the BBC presenting team for the price of the license fee I understand that public service broadcasters will never match the financial clout of a Sky or BT. And, as it stands, Sky will be the only game in town come 2019.
Last edited by StackH; 11th January 2017 at 13:46.
Unless by some miracle they can "do a Brawn", Renault will be also-rans for a few seasons yet. The lack of investment over the last few years has left the team desperately short of personnel (they are apparently looking for 40 aerodynamicists) and car development has suffered. It's going to take a long time for them to regroup. And Frederic Vasseur has just left, as well.
You're over-simplifying the issue. The move of a driver between teams is easier when he's out of contract, but to extract a driver from a complex series of contracts not just with the team but with the sponsors undoubtedly requires the lengthy engagement of a team of very expensive lawyers, and then there is the equal and opposite engagement with the new team and their backers. And the agreement between the driver and the new team itself.
Mercedes are due to launch their new car on February 23 at Silverstone, and may not wish to confirm Bottas until then. If they don't want to announce it earlier, there's no reason why they should.
Sky's coverage is far better than any previous broadcaster, at least in the UK. There's something for everybody - Brundle's calm expertise, Crofty as the excitable co-commentator, Ted Kravitz's insights from the pit lane and paddock, Ant Davidson's analysis and Natalie Pinkham when she's not having babies. I can't wait for Melbourne.
I'm still pessimistic about Honda. Even in full speculaion mode I can't put the pieces together to see a successful outcome in the short term. The only positive I can find in Honda is that they finished 2nd in the constructors championship in 2004 with BAR. This was near the end of the V10 era against a dominant Ferrari. This shows that they do have the ability to catch up and I dare say McLaren can build a better car than BAR, so in the long term it could be successful.
I started a Moto GP thread last 2 years... I also contributed on the 2016 thread and sometimes it does spill over especially when coming up with ideas of how to make it more exciting which is what many motorsports forums discuss.
I didn't realise I or others who posted on F1 2016 and on the Moto thread were semi-literate ....there was very little slagging off of others or F1 itself... and most comments were in good humour and taken as such.....
Won't make any difference to any one I'm sure whether I post on an F1 thread here but I will start another Moto GP one and leave you to it as obviously caused offence and strife.....
Will watch F1 as usual but no bother to avoid posting and discussing....shame....
Last edited by lordloz; 11th January 2017 at 18:31.
As I understand it McLaren forced Honda to design an engine that was really small to fit a strict aero package, this caused a lot of the issues in 2015 with reliability, Honda redesigned the engine in 2016 but were still heavily restricted on the size of the engine to accommodate the aerodynamics. Since the regulation changes come into effect Honda are free to expand the size of the engine and McLaren will build the aero around the new design engine. I do not think that it will be a complete redesign but a chance to build on the existing engine but without so many restrictions on the size to accommodate the size zero form that McLaren enforced. I think we might see a big step in the Honda this year and aware they are again looking for more customers in the future. if they have a good year this year which I hope they do, then I see them gaining in popularity. I just wish that Button was around to be benefit as I do not see him returning now.
The Brawn was designed with the Honda Specification engine and when it was pulled at last minute they had to shoehorn the Mercedes in to the chassis. If they had the Honda engine it was designed for and it was a good engine then there was a chance they would have been even more dominant. However we will never know if the Honda would have done as well as the Merc engine but we do know how good the double defuser was.
My second and last post here as I return to the knuckle draggers....
so one last loosely connected F1 post as ex F1 driver and dad of Jolyon Jonathan Palmer buys Donington on 21 year lease...
may or may not be F1 related....what the hell, I care not...........
(I met Tom and Kevin Wheatcroft years back and Kevin used to give me free Paddock tickets and he isn't daft to give up whole freehold)
Tom told us about the European deal bartering with Bernie one afternoon at lunch in Brooklands before it went in his book. Fascinating it was....
Who knows what may happen if Silverstone have a break......?
Should see MSV improving facilities etc over time which it needs and have done a good job with Brands.
(was in the box next to JP at a BSB round too and thoroughly nice guy)
That's me done and I'm out of here
http://www.crash.net/wsbk/news/23683...gton-park.html
The two threads aren't mutually exclusive.
As a fan of both F1 and Moto GP, I intend to post on both.
But then I'm just a rebel!
Zanardi says the same as I wrote earlier in the 2016 thread:
http://en.f1i.com/news/86247-zanardi...-great-f1.html
but alas; we will see.
Again no winter tests at Jerez this year so I can't go see in person :-(
Ah well, have been for several years so can't complain.
Much as I would love to see another Grand Prix at Donington, I can't imagine that it will happen.
MSV have done a good job at the circuits that they operate, but bringing Donington up to Grand Prix specification would require a massive investment in order to fund a loss-making event, something that MSV and the Wheatcroft Trust would probably manage to control their enthusiasm for. Of course, with the rumour that Silverstone might invoke the break clause in their contract and forego the opportunity to lose money in 2019, there is speculation that other circuits might step up, although only Donington and Rockingham* are believed to be feasible, albeit with considerable investment required.
The issue of hosting fees and their contractural increases is near the top of the agenda for Liberty Media, who are reported to be concerned that the traditional European venues are teetering on the brink, and cannot afford to continue to host Grands Prix. Hopefully, something will be done soon - Bernie's worst nightmare almost became reality a few years ago, when the Australian Grand Prix promoter got together with other promoters to form an allegiance, but this seems to have withered and died, sadly.
*Mr Fox will be along shortly to present the case for Brands Hatch.
Are you out of your mind?! Have you seen what they started doing to Donington trying to make the environs compliant with F1's demands? They'd wreck Brands. I want to see WEC at Brands and not lost going round the bland, empty concrete mess that is Silverstone, with it's 73 corners rammed in to provide more TV camera positions for slow motion shots of cars, line astern, braking into corners. Silverstone is like a ghost town for the WEC weekend, Brands would be packed to the rafters.
Sportscars at Brands:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81hSGCLrXUs
"A man of little significance"
I was at Silverstone for Porche's return to the top flight a few years ago, was quite surprised by how small the "crowds" were. I doubt that WEC would work at Brands though, neither the Indy or the GP circuit are fast enough IMO. Spectacular venue, granted.
On the subject of F1 I'm still waiting for news on both Nico's replacement and where Paddy Lowe is off to, plenty of solid speculation but no absolute confirmation.
We'll never know how well the chassis would perform with the Honda engine, however to swap from that to Merc at such short notice was no mean feat. The cooling requirements would be completely different which would then affect the aero, packaging would affect just about everything, and I'd guess that it would be a different gearbox which would then mean a change of rear suspension. Sure, the Merc engine was strong, though if memory serves me correct it was the chassis/aero (I'm thinking double diffuser) that won them the two championships.
Derek Warwick as steward for the first 4 races looks to be a step in the right direction.
He is quite outspoken about F1 having become to 'vanilla' and it needing to become a bit harder; more about letting the drives RACE, allowing them to make mistakes and not penalize it all.
He even wants to scrap the blue flags; 'let them sort out how/when to overtake or not.'
This article http://en.f1i.com/magazine/86147-201...ower-unit.html gives an insight into the effect of the 2017 regulations on engine and fuel management. The drivers will be using full throttle for a greater proportion of the lap at most circuits, but increased drag (the trade-off for increased downforce) will use more fuel.
The reduction to four power unit "components" per driver (down from five last year) is the result of a 20-race Championship, rather than 21 in 2016, so there's a potential reliability issue, given that the power units will be working harder. And there's no opportunity to "stockpile" components and just take a grid penalty hit for one race, as Mercedes did with Lewis Hamilton at Spa last year.
Great article that, thanks for posting.
Unless I'm misunderstanding something, how can previous fuel flow restrictions still be in force for 2017 when there's a 5kg increase in fuel capacity? Surely the maximum fuel flow rate should be increased to allow for the increase in fuel load?
Bottas now confirmed at Merc, he's currently live on Facebook from the team's HQ. Massa had been confirmed in the 2nd Williams seat earlier today.
^^^^^
The worst-kept secret in Formula 1 is now out in the open, and it will be interesting to see how things work out at Mercedes. I like Valtteri Bottas, and he's done a good job at Williams, starting with the occasional Friday session, having impressed in GP3 and not really bothering with GP2.
Toto Wolff has a hand in managing him, so I'm not sure how that will affect the intra-team dynamic. On which subject, as Foxy has already mentioned, Nigel Roebuck (now back at Autosport) and Martin Brundle's pre-season lunch and devil's advocacy session included some interesting comments on Lewis Hamilton's behaviour. Mention was made of the fact that his social media photos, of which there are many, usually show him alone, or in the company of his dogs, when he's not cosying up to someone in the music business, and he's usually found alone with headphones on when participating in the race-morning drivers' parade. Coupled with his antics during the drivers' press conference in Japan last year, it provides an insight to his general demeanour. Many talented sportsmen and women are quiet and withdrawn in private, but Hamilton seems to be quiet and withdrawn in public.