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Thread: Formula 1 2017

  1. #1

    Formula 1 2017

    I would like to start with a request.

    The reason I decided to take a break from contributing to last year's Formula 1 thread was the trolling and thread spoiling by two factions whose involvement makes any thread on Formula 1 descend into a tragic mess of sniping and name-calling.

    These factions are the semi-literate followers of MotoGP who keep popping up and telling everybody that Formula 1 is boring, and the tedious Lewis Hamilton fanboys, whose principal contribution is to aim childish insults at others.

    I would be the first to admit that alternative forms of motor sport can be very exciting to watch, and that Lewis Hamilton is an excellent racing driver, particularly when he's in a car with a tangible performance advantage.

    Should anybody wish to start a thread extolling the virtues of MotoGP (which is an entirely different sport to Formula 1) or Lewis Hamilton, the facility is available to you. Please don't spoil a thread about the virtues, problems or technicalities of Formula 1 though. If you have something relevant to contribute, great. Let's have an open discussion about Formula 1 - there are enough of us on here who enjoy the sport for the racing, the personalities and the technical challenge to be able to enjoy the changes that the 2017 season will undoubtedly bring.

    I'll post a couple of updates on driver and personnel changes and the likely impact of the new technical regulations later.

  2. #2
    Master
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    Cool

    Look forward to your informative posts again.

  3. #3
    Grand Master hogthrob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward point View Post
    Please don't spoil a thread about the virtues, problems or technicalities of Formula 1
    Well said. Might I also request that people do not respond to the trolls?

  4. #4
    Grand Master Dave+63's Avatar
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    It's going to be an interesting season, will Mercedes manage to maintain their dominant position in light of the rule changes?

    My guess is yes but it will be somewhat closer than previous seasons.

  5. #5
    Journeyman
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    Well said that man...

    I'm a big Formula 1 fan and have been for many years... it's not perfect but it's still good fun. So much discussion of Formula 1 recently (not on here, pretty much everywhere) has been about it being boring, not enough happening, this person is lucky, that person is unlucky etc. and it spoils talking about it for me.

    I've been to a few Grand Prix, a Moto GP race, several rally stages and to a crazy American event called the World of Outlaws, thoroughly enjoyed the lot.

    Looking forward to the 2017 season and seeing what impact the driver changes and new rules will have!

  6. #6
    Grand Master JasonM's Avatar
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    Nice one Ian, you were missed.
    I read this the other day, could get interesting if the top 2 have to redesign this late in the day.

    http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/127615
    Cheers..
    Jase

  7. #7
    Grand Master Foxy100's Avatar
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    Many moons ago a journalist I know interviewed Hamilton, who mentioned how he wasn't really interested in F1 and was weighing up the possibility of racing in Moto GP instead. Naturally none of it made it past the PR people who'd set up the interview, much to the disappointment of the journalist, who thought he was onto a big scoop.

    I'm hoping the new rules make the racing interesting enough to keep my attention this year. While I appreciate the minutiae of rule changes, driver swaps, rule transgressions and so on can be interesting, as someone who's progressively lost interest in F1 over the last few years the actual racing is all I really want to see. A couple of years ago I would watch the 10-minute highlights on the BBC website but that stopped with Channel 4's involvement. I'll give it a go again and will see how it all goes, and will try not to mention Hamilton or Moto GP. Again.
    "A man of little significance"

  8. #8
    Thanks, Jase. That saves me having to attempt to explain the grenade lobbed into the FIA bunker by Ferrari - basically, for anybody who doesn't want to trawl through the entire Autosport article, Red Bull and Mercedes are using hydraulics to maintain the car as level as possible in order to maximise the aerodynamic downforce. Ferrari have queried this with Charle Whiting, as it pushes the outer extremities of the rules over what the suspension is allowed to do, namely to separate the body of the car from the track undulations, and is essentially using the suspension to actively optimise downforce.

    On to the personnel changes. it's not all about the drivers.

    Nico Rosberg probably surprised members of his immediate family when, five days after clinching the 2016 title, he announced his retirement. This must have come as a shock to the management of the Mercedes team, who were under the impression, supported by signed documents, that he had committed to another two seasons with them.

    Barely had the shockwaves spread from Brackley than speculation commenced as to his likely replacement, with Pascal Wehrlein as the front runner, given the fact that he is a Mercedes Junior driver. However, Mercedes may have felt that with only limited experience at the rear of the field, albeit with some distinction, Wehrlein wasn't yet ready for a full-on Championship assault. Formula 1 thrives on speculation, and there has been much to speculate about, but the mists are beginning to clear and through the murk has emerged Valtteri Bottas. The more you think about this, the more logical a choice he becomes. He ticks the "Experience" box, he's pretty much unflappable and unlikely to create waves within the team. An ideal candidate for the role which he will be asked to perform, specifically as back-up to Hamilton and capable of winning races should the need and opportunity arise, while maximising Constructors' Championship points.

    But any move of Bottas from Williams creates a sizeable vacuum at Grove. Williams are sponsored by Martini, who, for advertising and promotional purposes require a driver of at least 25 years of age. With Bottas gone, they are left with Lance Stroll, who fails the age criteria, although on the other hand he arrived at Williams with $20m of his father's fortune. So Williams turned to Felipe Massa, who easily fulfils the age criteria, and apparently didn't actually want to retire in the first place. The deal with Massa has yet to be completed, but seems to satisfy all parties.

    Current rumour has Williams turning down an offer from Mercedes for the services of Bottas in exchange for a half-price engine deal for 2017, and Williams playing hardball and insisting on their engines for free - this is believed to be worth c. €17m.

    The off-season rumour mill seems to revolve entirely around Williams, with Pat Symonds deciding to retire and his likely replacement touted as Paddy Lowe, who's contract at Mercedes finished at the end of 2016. Lowe's likely replacement at Mercedes is James Allison, who left Ferrari during the 2016 campaign following the sudden death of his wife.

    After the moves outlined above, the rest of the changes seem unimportant somehow. Driver-wise, Wehrlein has now joined Sauber alongside Marcus Ericsson, leaving Felipe Nasr temporarily under-employed and likely to end up at Manor. Nico Hulkenburg signed for Renault several months ago, where he will be joined by Jolyon Palmer, who had a tentative start to 2016 but improved as the season unfolded. Kevin Magnussen moves to Haas, alongside Romain Grosjean, clearly undeterred by his brake-related problems of last year.

    At McLaren, Jenson Button's widely-predicted retirement left the door open for Stoffel Vandoorne. Honda need to up their game if Fernando Alonso's talents aren't to be squandered again in 2017, although the team must be on the back foot after the night of the long knives which saw Ron Dennis ousted by his fellow shareholders, including his former close friend and long-term ally Mansour Ojjeh.

    Force India punched well above their weight last year and were rewarded with 4th in the Constructors' Championship, and the increased budget which comes with it. Even so, it's going to require another loaves-and-fishes performance in 2017 if they are to continue to snap at the heels of the "big three". Esteban Ocon and his Mercedes backing will be welcome, and Sergio Perez showed in 2016 that he's the real deal.

    There are no changes at Red Bull, Ferrari or Toro Rosso, and at the time of writing the only empty seats are at Manor. Felipe Nasr and his Banco di Brasil backing seem destined for one, while Rio Haryanto was favourite for the other, although I believe that there may be issues with his sponsorship which are yet to be resolved.

    More later.

  9. #9
    Master tiny73's Avatar
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    Welcome back Backward point, your insight was sorely missed last year, hopefully the main protagonists will leave this thread alone as has been repeatedly requested of them (hoping I'm not one of them... )

    Regarding the suspension clarification from Ferrari and the subsequent TD from Charlie Whiting, Mercedes claim this will have no impact on the W08 development and indeed their pace after the banning of FRIC last year suggests that they have got a handle on the suspension elements.

    The rumours are that Red Bull will be more affected since their trick heave spring element thing (I've read countless articles on this and still only have a limited understanding of what it actually does save for keeping the car level through corners to maintain a stable aero platform) allows them to run their huge rake and massively aids their full aero package.

    Should be be a good season, only 80 or so days to go .

  10. #10
    Grand Master Dave+63's Avatar
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    Formula 1 2017

    It's a tricky one!

    If the suspension is to isolate the body of the car from the track undulations then surely the aim is to maintain the optimum ride height and stance for aerodynamic performance. The hydraulic system just helps to improve the suspension's performance.

  11. #11
    Grand Master PickleB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward point View Post
    I would like to start with a request...Please don't spoil a thread about the virtues, problems or technicalities of Formula 1 though...
    Quote Originally Posted by hogthrob View Post
    Well said. Might I also request that people do not respond to the trolls?
    Those that cannot comply might post in Formula 1 2017, instead.

  12. #12
    Master Reeny's Avatar
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    There will be an old rule banning active suspension - remember the 1992 Willams / Mansell combination.

    From reading the posts above, the new system can mimic active suspension.
    And because Ferrari can't get theirs to work properly - they want it banned.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Reeny View Post
    There will be an old rule banning active suspension - remember the 1992 Willams / Mansell combination.

    From reading the posts above, the new system can mimic active suspension.
    And because Ferrari can't get theirs to work properly - they want it banned.
    I suspect that you're right. It's a whole new rabbit-hole, and the FIA might consider that the development of these systems will further distance the "haves" from the "have nots". Anything which involves the teams spending vast amounts of money developing a means to shave a tenth of a second from their lap times has been received with displeasure by the FIA - stalling the rear wing by means of the so-called "F-duct", active suspension, dual chassis etc. will always benefit the bigger teams and detract from the "spectacle". The problem is that unless the FIA act now to either ban or allow the hydraulic heave-springs, nobody knows whether to try to develop their own system or not.

    How, for instance, would the likes of Force India or Sauber find the resources to develop active hydraulic heave-springs? There's a yawning chasm between them and the "big three" as it is.

  14. #14
    Technical changes for 2017.

    The cars will be bigger, and will look more aggressive thanks to swept-back front wings and a rearward-canted (and slightly larger and lower) rear wing.

    But the biggest change is that the diffuser, which creates downforce using the underbody at the rear of the car to create a venturi, will be much larger than before. The intention is to use the underbody to create a greater proportion of the total downforce, thereby limiting the effect of turbulent air from following another car. DRS remains.

    There is some concern that this, coupled with wider tyres, will shorten braking areas, to the detriment of overtaking. Nobody knows whether this will happen until the season gets under way.

    The cars will be wider overall, which will alter the airflow around the sidepods and brake ducting, the latter in particular having been an area of intensive development in recent seasons.

    Power unit development will no longer be subject to the "token" system, and manufacturers will be able to develop their engines and energy recovery/deployment systems with fewer restraints. Drivers will still be restricted to how many of the "component" parts are available for the season, but the rules have been changed to prevent "stockpiling" components as Mercedes did with Lewis Hamilton at Spa. Only the final "new" component will be penalised immediately, with other grid penalties carried forward.

    Pirelli have developed the new tyres as best they can, using cars from Mercedes, Red Bull and Ferrari modified to try to produce the downforce levels anticipated from the new cars. The current system of having three compounds available at each race, with teams making their choices well in advance of the race weekend remains, although Pirelli will decide which compounds will be used for the first five races. Paul Hembury of Pirelli has stated that the regulation changes will cost Pirelli "tens of million pounds" in development and additional freight costs.

    The "Halo" cockpit protection device does not become mandatory until 2018.

    At the moment, the only confirmed car launches are Mercedes at Silverstone on 23 February and Ferrari at Fiorano on 24 February. The first of two pre-season tests starts at Barcelona on 27 February.

  15. #15
    Another article on the hydraulic heave-spring discussion:

    http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/op...l&utm_content=

  16. #16
    Grand Master AlphaOmega's Avatar
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    Glad you're back on point for this, BP.

    One day I may rekindle the love I used to have for F1. Perhaps it will be this year.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by PickleB View Post
    Those that cannot comply might post in Formula 1 2017, instead.
    Bob, I'm so sorry - I didn't even see this. In my defence, it's become well-hidden.

    Perhaps the title could be changed to "Formula 1 2017 whinge, moan and rant thread"?

  18. #18
    Master tiny73's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave+63 View Post
    It's a tricky one!

    If the suspension is to isolate the body of the car from the track undulations then surely the aim is to maintain the optimum ride height and stance for aerodynamic performance. The hydraulic system just helps to improve the suspension's performance.
    It is indeed a tricky one. Arguably the suspension trickery keeps the the car flatter through the corner keeping more of the tyre in contact with the tarmac and thus providing more mechanical grip. However, this has the secondary benefit of keeping a car flat through the corner and thus more predictable airflow allowing further increased cornering speed through aerodynamic grip (if I'm understanding the general principle correctly). Can the teams argue that the primary benefit is an increase in mechanical grip?

    So so the question is, do the teams that "have" risk wasted development up to Australia following the inevitable challenge from numerous teams, or do they move in a "legal" direction? The rumours are that Red Bull have something revolutionary in their design that will invariably be aided by the trick suspension elements.

  19. #19
    Grand Master PickleB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward point View Post
    Bob, I'm so sorry - I didn't even see this. In my defence, it's become well-hidden.

    Perhaps the title could be changed to "Formula 1 2017 whinge, moan and rant thread"?
    No problem...and no apology necessary. Let's hope that one of them will stay on topic.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by tiny73 View Post
    It is indeed a tricky one. Arguably the suspension trickery keeps the the car flatter through the corner keeping more of the tyre in contact with the tarmac and thus providing more mechanical grip. However, this has the secondary benefit of keeping a car flat through the corner and thus more predictable airflow allowing further increased cornering speed through aerodynamic grip (if I'm understanding the general principle correctly). Can the teams argue that the primary benefit is an increase in mechanical grip?

    So so the question is, do the teams that "have" risk wasted development up to Australia following the inevitable challenge from numerous teams, or do they move in a "legal" direction? The rumours are that Red Bull have something revolutionary in their design that will invariably be aided by the trick suspension elements.
    I believe that the clue is in the ever-increasing "rake" of the Red Bull. The hydraulics may, I understand, be used to reduce the rake (and co-incidentally the drag) of the car at speed. And, rumour has it, Red Bull have also found a means to stall the rear wing at speed. Which is beneficial if you're a little short of power, as it reduces the drag still further, to the benefit of top speed.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward point View Post
    And, rumour has it, Red Bull have also found a means to stall the rear wing at speed. Which is beneficial if you're a little short of power, as it reduces the drag still further, to the benefit of top speed.
    Is this technically similar to the F-duct? Or in Ferrari's case, one handed driving...
    Last edited by StackH; 5th January 2017 at 16:43.

  22. #22
    The new season can't come soon enough for me, really looking forward to it.

    It's a shame that Nico retired when he did, with Jenson leaving the sport loosing another Driver's Champion isn't ideal, however if it gives Bottas the chance that Williams are unlikely to provide that may be sufficient recompense. I'm very interested in how the two drivers will compare, Lewis vs Valteri could be quite exciting, and has already been said Valteri has proven himself to be a fast and steady hand.
    I'm concerned that the possible decrease in braking distances coupled with wider cars will be at the detriment to overtaking in the braking zones, yet this could be balanced out with the less disruptive wake created by the car in front allowing for easier nose to tail action around the longer, faster bends where the previous chassis lost a percentage of stability. Overtaking whilst braking may be more difficult, though there may be more opportunities to try to do so.
    There's always the chance that one of the teams will pull something unique out of the bag and make something of the new regulations that others haven't found, some twist or legal loophole unseen by their rivals. Merc have got to be the favourites for the '17 titles simply due to their momentum and (I'd guess) being able to apply more R&D resources at an earlier stage than other teams once they'd calculated that '16 was in the bag - roll on Melbourne!

  23. #23
    Master
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    So is this a case of Ferrari struggling with their development, so deciding to throw a spanner in the works of the other teams?

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by jaytip View Post
    So is this a case of Ferrari struggling with their development, so deciding to throw a spanner in the works of the other teams?
    It might be. Or it might not. You never know with F1!

  25. #25
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
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    I must say I am really looking forward to seeing the new cars perform, I read somewhere that lap times are likely to come down by 3-5 seconds on some tracks.

    Plus I am interested to see Max and Danny Compete to become team number one.

    Any news on the German GP - is it still off?

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
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  26. #26
    Craftsman cinnabull's Avatar
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    I am also a keen F1 follower. Myself and one of my sons went to Singapore last year for the race, its the second time we have been and it was mind blowing, Queen was an added bonus. We have also done Kuala Lumpur, Abu Dhabi and Monaco.

    I am not so well up on all the technicalities as some of the learned posters above who clearly have a much better understanding of these matters than me. However, I can say this. I have heard that lots of people have complained about the latest engines being a fair bit quieter. Now, the first time we went to Singapore was actually the last year of the 'old' engine. We we in the Connaught Grandstand, which is basically at the end of a long straight and on a 90degree right hand bend. We were pretty close to the track, maybe aroun 20 or 30 m away. When the cars came down the straight and braked to take the corner, the backfiring and actual noise was, to me, uncomfortable. I noticed many folk around me with ear plugs, jeez I wish I had some. The next year we went to Sepang, again a similar distance from the track, and for me personally, it was a much more enjoyable experience. They were still noisy, not like the prev year, but bearable. You could have a conversation with the person next to you allbeit having to shout.

    Another thing I will throw out for discussion is the penalty system. I like to think there is really 2 championships going on, the Constructors and the Drivers. Now, I find it unfair that when an engine, gearbox or whatever is replaced that is over the quota, the driver gets punished. I think the constructors, say Merc, Ferrari or whoever, should cop this, not the driver. He is being, in my mind, unfairly punished for the manufacturers possible shortcoming in reliability. I have seen arguments that a driver may be 'overstressing' an engine, but lets face it, he is paid to press the go pedal as hard as he can for as long as he can, period. The manufacturer should be given a deduction of sorts for this not the driver. Clearly, flip side, if the driver cocks up and causes an incident, then he should cop the punishment and not the constructor. I dont know how this could be implemented, but I'm sure someone a lot smarter than me can devise a working system.

    Hey and heres another. Last year I think it was, when the preliminary fixtures were announced, Malaysia and Singapore were within a week of each other. Great I thought, for a 10 day break I can take in 2 F1's is nice places. The cost to get from Singapore to KL isnt massive. Then they shifted them 2 weeks apart, meaning its no longer a 10 day jaunt. The actual cost of staying in either KL or Singapore isnt to be sniffed at. Now we hear then Malaysia may be axed due to falling crowds. I would suggest far more Europeand would be tempted to do both if they were 1 week apart, but 2 weeks, no way. And Singapore will allways win over KL.

    Anyways, I will follow this thread with interest. I also follow Moto GP and WSBK, but havent been to a bike race for years. Who knows, with the ever increasing cost of going to an F1 event, I may look into the bikes again.

    Stuart

  27. #27
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    You can’t believe how welcome t is to read this thread, Ian.

    As you know, I packed up posting into these threads some 2+ years ago because it had gotten quite silly and tribal (actually just like most F1 fora) so a return to basics would be most welcome – almost like 2009 again when for all the world it seemed like there were only a few F1 fans on TZ-UK and we were trying to educate the masses!

    Anyway lots of water under the bridge, so a fresh start (I believe the expression is “reboot” if you are "down with the kids" - which I'm definitely not) is very much my cup of tea.

    The engineering really floats my boat, so all-new technical regs will be very interesting, plus the youngsters are bringing a new dimension to the sport (whatever you may think of the characters) actually on the track itself – so perhaps we are witnessing a real changing of the guard.

    Anyway, back to the point, thanks for revitalising my interest in posting here again!

  28. #28
    Craftsman tifosotony's Avatar
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    Welcome back with your insightful posts. The news today doesn't seem to bode well for Silverstone post 2019 http://www.itv.com/news/2017-01-05/f...ruinous-costs/.
    Last edited by tifosotony; 5th January 2017 at 23:51.

  29. #29
    Grand Master Chris_in_the_UK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tifosotony View Post
    Welcome back with your insightful posts. The news today doesn't seem to bode well or Silverstone post 2019 http://www.itv.com/news/2017-01-05/f...ruinous-costs/.
    Indeed - but (if it is true) who is going to host an event which looses money?

    Whilst it is no huge surprise that F1 charge for hosting th event, £17 million per race is never going to be sustainable.
    When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by cinnabull View Post

    Another thing I will throw out for discussion is the penalty system. I like to think there is really 2 championships going on, the Constructors and the Drivers. Now, I find it unfair that when an engine, gearbox or whatever is replaced that is over the quota, the driver gets punished. I think the constructors, say Merc, Ferrari or whoever, should cop this, not the driver. He is being, in my mind, unfairly punished for the manufacturers possible shortcoming in reliability. I have seen arguments that a driver may be 'overstressing' an engine, but lets face it, he is paid to press the go pedal as hard as he can for as long as he can, period. The manufacturer should be given a deduction of sorts for this not the driver. Clearly, flip side, if the driver cocks up and causes an incident, then he should cop the punishment and not the constructor. I dont know how this could be implemented, but I'm sure someone a lot smarter than me can devise a working system.



    Stuart
    I certainly understand where you're coming from though I see it differently. Despite having two Championships the drivers are just as much team members as their crews, engineers, tea ladies etc. It is, ultimately, a team sport - if one goes down, they all go down.

  31. #31
    Grand Master Dave+63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_in_the_UK View Post
    Indeed - but (if it is true) who is going to host an event which looses money?

    Whilst it is no huge surprise that F1 charge for hosting th event, £17 million per race is never going to be sustainable.
    With tickets for race day at Silverstone starting at £145 and going up to £600, say an average of £300 and 100,000 spectators gives an income from ticket sales of around £30million. Add in everything else and it's still a very profitable weekend for the circuit.

  32. #32
    Master petethegeek's Avatar
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    It's great to see the TZ-UK F1 cognoscenti reassembling themselves again. I for one am extremely grateful for the information and insightful analysis they provide and I hope it is allowed to continue thus.

    Whilst there have already been several comments and observations on the personnel and technical aspects for the new season, I have seen little mention yet on the potential affect of the acquisition by Liberty Media Corp. Is it too early for the impact to be seen this year?

  33. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by petethegeek View Post
    It's great to see the TZ-UK F1 cognoscenti reassembling themselves again. I for one am extremely grateful for the information and insightful analysis they provide and I hope it is allowed to continue thus.

    Whilst there have already been several comments and observations on the personnel and technical aspects for the new season, I have seen little mention yet on the potential affect of the acquisition by Liberty Media Corp. Is it too early for the impact to be seen this year?

    It is indeed satisfying to see some of the cognoscenti back, and particularly Peter! Here's hoping that we can have some intelligent debate about Formula 1 between those of us who care for the sport. Thank you also for the kind words. It's good to know that my efforts are appreciated.

    Liberty's impact has yet to manifest itself, but from comments made by Chase Carey, the man charged with making F1 "work" for Liberty, he seems well aware of the problems, financial and otherwise, faced by the circuits hosting the races, and (thankfully) the risk to F1's heritage in having races in tin-pot dictatorships while historic, proper circuits struggle and drop from the calendar. My own view is that any country which wants to host a Grand Prix should have their hosting fee doubled if they have a Presidential Palace, with the excess used to subsidise the races at proper circuits.

    The comment above about the noise is interesting, and highlights one of the major problems facing the sport. The previous generation of V8's were painfully shrill, and more than fulfilled the requirement for Formula 1 cars to have an element of "shock and awe" about them. The hybrids, by their very nature, can't replicate this, but sound "techy", and you can indeed hear the technology working, with turbos spooling down as the cars brake. It's not "thrilling", though. FOM, and in particular Bernie Ecclestone, are concerned about this, and moves are afoot to make the engines louder. Leading on from this, one of the prime requirements driving the new 2017 regulations was to make the cars look more exciting.

    More later!

  34. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave+63 View Post
    With tickets for race day at Silverstone starting at £145 and going up to £600, say an average of £300 and 100,000 spectators gives an income from ticket sales of around £30million. Add in everything else and it's still a very profitable weekend for the circuit.
    I think that there's more to it than that. Silverstone state publicly that they lose £2m over the weekend. The Hosting Fee is only the beginning of FOM's cut.

  35. #35
    Master tiny73's Avatar
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    Re: noise. Whilst not the same as the shrill, piercing, visceral V10/8 engines the V6t engines are loud and noisy (in a good way) in their own right and certainly when physically present the sound is electrifying in its own right. I was at Abu Dhabi for the last race of the 2015 calendar in the pit straight grandstand with lots of sound reflecting surfaces and needed earplugs such was the noise.

    I've heard anecdotally that the major issue is the "tuning" of the TV microphones not being aligned to the different frequencies from the V6 engines resulting in a general feeling that the noise isn't up to much vs the V10/8 engines.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiny73 View Post
    Re: noise. Whilst not the same as the shrill, piercing, visceral V10/8 engines the V6t engines are loud and noisy (in a good way) in their own right and certainly when physically present the sound is electrifying in its own right. I was at Abu Dhabi for the last race of the 2015 calendar in the pit straight grandstand with lots of sound reflecting surfaces and needed earplugs such was the noise.

    I've heard anecdotally that the major issue is the "tuning" of the TV microphones not being aligned to the different frequencies from the V6 engines resulting in a general feeling that the noise isn't up to much vs the V10/8 engines.
    I'll never forget the noise that the cars made when I was at Spa back in 2011, just a fantastic sound... I thought that Renault sounded quite a lot like one of the Star Wars pod racers as it slowed for the corners.

    I was at the Hungaroring last year and, whilst not as loud, they still made a very good noise!

  37. #37
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    Are you suggesting that only monarchies can host F1 GPs (in which case we can expect a GP from this beacon of democracy that is the kingdom of Thailand) or do you mean Presidential in a more general way, in which case we have to say good bye to the French (Le Castelet from now on I believe, I shall not miss Magny Court which was always a political present from Mitterand to his friend Guy Ligier and the vain hope of developing a French F1 pole near Nevers), Spa, Monaco, Monza, Catalunya, Hockenheim, etc. not to forget Silverstone...

  38. #38
    Craftsman cinnabull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CardShark View Post
    I certainly understand where you're coming from though I see it differently. Despite having two Championships the drivers are just as much team members as their crews, engineers, tea ladies etc. It is, ultimately, a team sport - if one goes down, they all go down.
    I get the team sport/members ethos and ideals. However, I still think there could/should be a fairer way of who should cop for the penalties. The driver has no control realistically of the engine, gearbox, turbo or whatever reliability, yet when it fails he gets punished by grid penalties if a replacement other than the agreed amount is fitted, and as we have seen this can effect his championship quite dramatically. I feel the constructor should cop this, as they are totally responsible for the development, design and manufacture of these components. I dont know of any other event, sport, or whatever, where someone is punished for something they have no control over, althought there may be examples out there I dont know about. I doubt it will change and obviously different folk have different views, but I cant help thinking there must be a fairer way.

    Stuart

  39. #39
    Cant wait for the season to start up again.

    Have Mercedes decided on their driver line up?. Seems to have gone quiet on Bottas.

    Should be a exciting season and I hope we have a closer gap within the top 3 teams.

    Max is the man this year me thinks.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by cinnabull View Post
    I get the team sport/members ethos and ideals. However, I still think there could/should be a fairer way of who should cop for the penalties. The driver has no control realistically of the engine, gearbox, turbo or whatever reliability, yet when it fails he gets punished by grid penalties if a replacement other than the agreed amount is fitted, and as we have seen this can effect his championship quite dramatically. I feel the constructor should cop this, as they are totally responsible for the development, design and manufacture of these components. I dont know of any other event, sport, or whatever, where someone is punished for something they have no control over, althought there may be examples out there I dont know about. I doubt it will change and obviously different folk have different views, but I cant help thinking there must be a fairer way.

    Stuart
    I agree, I think it would be a much fairer system if the constructors are deducted points for mechanical failures, as opposed to the driver taking a grid penalty.
    The penalty is still applied, but at least it won't affect the driver in their bid for the championship.

  41. #41
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cinnabull View Post
    I get the team sport/members ethos and ideals. However, I still think there could/should be a fairer way of who should cop for the penalties. The driver has no control realistically of the engine, gearbox, turbo or whatever reliability, yet when it fails he gets punished by grid penalties if a replacement other than the agreed amount is fitted, and as we have seen this can effect his championship quite dramatically. I feel the constructor should cop this, as they are totally responsible for the development, design and manufacture of these components. I dont know of any other event, sport, or whatever, where someone is punished for something they have no control over, althought there may be examples out there I dont know about. I doubt it will change and obviously different folk have different views, but I cant help thinking there must be a fairer way.

    Stuart
    In practice it is extremely difficult to differentiate between Manufacturers and Drivers to deduct points. You mentioned the excessive engine parts replacement, but let me suggest a slightly different set of circumstances:
    We have 2 teams fighting for the Manufacturer's crown. Team A is ahead on points, but the momentum is with B (take a Lewis/Nico scenario in Abu Dhabi and apply to 2 different manufacturers). Team A ask one driver to make sure Team B doesn't get more points than them. Driver A pushes a Team B car out of the track as it was trying to overtake, is judged guilty and has his points deducted, but Team A keeps the points as it was a driver's fault and wins the crown.

  42. #42
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    Manor Racing enter administration and are on brink of collapse
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/38530855

  43. #43
    Master Omegary's Avatar
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    Just read that Manor Racing have gone into administration.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/38530855

    Cheers,
    Gary

    P.S. Welcome back Ian your insight has been sorely missed.

  44. #44
    Craftsman cinnabull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    In practice it is extremely difficult to differentiate between Manufacturers and Drivers to deduct points. You mentioned the excessive engine parts replacement, but let me suggest a slightly different set of circumstances:
    We have 2 teams fighting for the Manufacturer's crown. Team A is ahead on points, but the momentum is with B (take a Lewis/Nico scenario in Abu Dhabi and apply to 2 different manufacturers). Team A ask one driver to make sure Team B doesn't get more points than them. Driver A pushes a Team B car out of the track as it was trying to overtake, is judged guilty and has his points deducted, but Team A keeps the points as it was a driver's fault and wins the crown.

    Haha, yeah I can see that as well SJ. Like I said, it may well be complicated to enforce/apply. However, in the example quoted, radio messages can be replayed and reviewed, and if a driver of say team A does take a driver from team B off, and it can clearly be shown beyond any doubt its is to ensure team A get the Constructors title after receiving an istruction allbeit veiled, then perhaps both should suffer. I know there are probably a hundred and one scenarios, but surely a working group could iron these out for the penalties to be applied in a fairer manner. Its just like when Max exploded on the scene, and new moving under braking rule was applied. Things can be tweeked as they go to ensure fairness to all.

    Stuart

  45. #45
    I'd lost track of the happenings at Manor. Has Justin King walked away? It seemed for a while that he was looking to take the team over and instal his son Jordan, who has made a name for himself in the lower formulae, and was looking for an F1 drive. there was also a rumour that Graham Lowdon was hoping to arrange to buy the team, backed by new investors.

    If Manor fails, it will be the last of the "new" teams which joined Formula 1 on a wave of optimism and the promise of a funding cap, along with HRT and Caterham. It's a tough business, Formula 1.

  46. #46
    Craftsman cinnabull's Avatar
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    It will indeed be a great shame if Manor, or indeed any of the teams go bust. The more cars on the grid the better the spectacle.

    On the subject of costs, I wonder if anyone has thought of the dates schedule. Looking at the calendar, it seems they zig zag across the world in a haphazard fashion. This must increase shipping and other associated costs. I know weather may play a part here, and speccies will more than likely want a dry race, butmaybe to travel in a more 'sensible' order may help the teams. I'm sure if a courier had to deliver parcels to each of these destinations they wouldnt choose the current schedule.

    I have already mentioned the Malaysia and Singapore races being 2 weeks apart, and my thoughts if they were 1 week apart.

    Stuart

  47. #47
    The problem, Stuart, is that the cars are usually returned to "base" (Europe) and completely stripped down and rebuilt between races, for reasons of safety (crack testing of suspension components, for example), and specification changes as no two tracks are the same.

    Also, as all of the teams are based in Europe, so are their employees. Back-to-back flyaway races are not popular among those who have to administer to the cars. The journalists and TV crews aren't keen on them either. Formula 1 isn't the life of jet-setting glamour that people imagine.

  48. #48
    Craftsman cinnabull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward point View Post
    The problem, Stuart, is that the cars are usually returned to "base" (Europe) and completely stripped down and rebuilt between races, for reasons of safety (crack testing of suspension components, for example), and specification changes as no two tracks are the same.

    Also, as all of the teams are based in Europe, so are their employees. Back-to-back flyaway races are not popular among those who have to administer to the cars. The journalists and TV crews aren't keen on them either. Formula 1 isn't the life of jet-setting glamour that people imagine.

    Ah right. I didnt know the cars came back to Europe. Jeez no wonder its so expensive to run a F1 team then. I wouldnt mind being flown around the world to film it though !!

    Stuart

  49. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by cinnabull View Post
    Ah right. I didnt know the cars came back to Europe. Jeez no wonder its so expensive to run a F1 team then. I wouldnt mind being flown around the world to film it though !!

    Stuart
    An acquaintance of mine used to work as a technician for the TV crews at each race weekend. When he first got the job he was ecstatic - traveling the world following a sport he loved doing a job he was very capable at was his dream.

    Year 1 - loved it.
    Year 2 - still got a buzz though the constant travel and being away from home started to grate.
    Year 3 - started to dread the long-haul flights and back to back race weekends.
    Year 4 - started to look for other (TV tech) employment.
    Year 5 - got out.

    It also killed a small part of the love for the sport - he just couldn't follow it while at work, he certainly couldn't follow it as a spectator. He's recovered since, so I believe.

    With regards to the transport of the cars, I believe that the cars from each team all fly together on specially chartered aircraft thus spreading the cost for all, still not going to be cheap though! I think that the cost for this is paid up front before the start of the season as well, may well be wrong on that though.
    Last edited by CardShark; 6th January 2017 at 14:23.

  50. #50
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    I love watching Formula One but don't really know the ins and outs of the teams and tech spec etc so this thread is great for me. Thanks for posting.

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