Shop disputing price after sale

[stefmcd]

Can I ask, was it the same guy who phoned you back?

Yes

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[Hammond]

A similar scenario happened with a friend, it was a case of dual stupidity. His wife spotted a watch in an antique dealers cabinet. The pair of them know absolutely nothing about watches. She perhaps wears a Casio at best. The label on the watch said, what they believed to be, £12.00. They asked to inspect it, and paid on a credit card (I don't know why such a small purchase was made on a card but it was, which is where the problem lied).

It turned out, that the cabinet was full of items being sold on behalf of another dealer, and the assistant had also misread the price label - it was of course £1200 pounds. Somehow, the shop, without my friend being present, managed to charge the credit card again for the whole remaining amount of £1188.

The bank said they'd refund his card and investigate it because they shouldn't have been able to charge it without him present. They didn't investigate it. The owner threated police action stating he'd stolen the watch. My friend took legal advice and, whilst a transaction had been carried out as it should have been on his part, he would have had a 50/50 chance of winning if it ever ended up in court.

My friend elected to return the watch, his card (and the £12!) were refunded.

[MrGrumpy]

Been thinking about this - I don't think this such a issue of morals as some are making out.

We all make mistakes with financial implications (buy the wrong thing, have a misjudgement) and when we do, we have to say 'B****r!' and then take the hit and move on. If I fail to pay attention in a car park and reverse my car into a bollard, I don't then ring up the council and say 'I made a mistake in your car park, so can you send me £300 to fix my car?' - its time to get the credit card out.
So the shop made a cock-up - they have to deal with it.

[alfat33]

Well I'm pleased that someone as respected as Haywood, and with a first hand knowledge of pawnbroker sales, appears to have the same view as me. Can we put the 'villain' comments to bed now?

[Walesy]

I had a similar situation with a well known furniture shop, deal was done but the furniture hadn't been delivered. Which was my fear.

I contacted Trading standards/Consumer protection (South Lanarkshire), they called them on my behalf and communicated that the contract was agreed and finalised with payment etc.
Took a bit of stress off me mate, maybe worth a call. But as far as I am concerned, if you called up and said 'the wife is going to divorce me as I paid to much for this watch, can you help me out?' I am pretty sure the shop in question wouldn't help or shaft you in some form over it buying it back.
I understand you have feelings over the situation, but business is business at the end of the day and there is no friends in business....Harsh I know, but roles reversed, I am sure you would be the one who would suffer.

[PhilipK]

Well I'm pleased that someone as respected as Haywood, and with a first hand knowledge of pawnbroker sales, appears to have the same view as me. Can we put the 'villain' comments to bed now?

Having read both posts, Haywood seems to be saying the exact opposite of what you have posted.

[Itsguy]

Been thinking about this - I don't think this such a issue of morals as some are making out.

We all make mistakes with financial implications (buy the wrong thing, have a misjudgement) and when we do, we have to say 'B****r!' and then take the hit and move on. If I fail to pay attention in a car park and reverse my car into a bollard, I don't then ring up the council and say 'I made a mistake in your car park, so can you send me £300 to fix my car?' - its time to get the credit card out.
So the shop made a cock-up - they have to deal with it.

After a fine meal in a high class French restaurant, and slightly too much wine, you decide to leave a £10 tip. But on your way to the door, looking at your wallet you realise that you have left a £50 note by mistake. You hurry back to the table, to find that the waiter is holding the £50. 'Too late, Monsieur!', he sneers, as he turns and walks to the kitchen.

I presume you're on the waiter's side here?

[crooky13]

After a fine meal in a high class French restaurant, and slightly too much wine, you decide to leave a £10 tip. But on your way to the door, looking at your wallet you realise that you have left a £50 note by mistake. You hurry back to the table, to find that the waiter is holding the £50. 'Too late, Monsieur!', he sneers, as he turns and walks to the kitchen.

I presume you're on the waiter's side here?

Playing devil's advocate, a healthy 12.5 per cent. would have already been included on the bill. There would be no note to leave on the table!

[jonasy]

Since you do seem bothered about the situation, which I can understand, how about some good ol' diplomacy ?

If you really want the watch, and you still think it's a deal for more money than you paid, how about asking to split the difference ? On the other hand, if you think you don't want it for that price, how about returning the item, in return for 10 % off your next purchase ?

I would, out of principle, not return the watch without some kind of compensation. If nothing else, it's a waste of your time, because of their cock up.

Edit: In the restaurant example above, if the food was good and I'd like to return some day, you could tell the waiter you gave a little more than the intended £10 (assuming £10 is a decent tip to start with, and £50 is obviously too generous), and then switch to a £20 note instead, and enjoy excellent service at your next visit.

[Yunsung]

The OP has some strong morals in the fact that he has started this thread.

There is buyers remorse, and sellers remorse. I believe he should swallow the mistake.

Maybe the OP can offer to kindly send some money to the charity of the shop's choosing?

This way, everyone sleeps easy.


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[MrGrumpy]

After a fine meal in a high class French restaurant, and slightly too much wine, you decide to leave a £10 tip. But on your way to the door, looking at your wallet you realise that you have left a £50 note by mistake. You hurry back to the table, to find that the waiter is holding the £50. 'Too late, Monsieur!', he sneers, as he turns and walks to the kitchen.

I presume you're on the waiter's side here?

Ooh!!! In principle I would be - inwardly I'd want my money back! It might depend on whether I'd said £10, or just left the £50 without saying anything. Anyway, I've never even seen a £50 note!

[chrisparker]

After a fine meal in a high class French restaurant, and slightly too much wine, you decide to leave a £10 tip. But on your way to the door, looking at your wallet you realise that you have left a £50 note by mistake. You hurry back to the table, to find that the waiter is holding the £50. 'Too late, Monsieur!', he sneers, as he turns and walks to the kitchen.

I presume you're on the waiter's side here?

These hypothetical non related stories are nonsense and not remotely close to what happened here.

Seller and buyer agree a price and do a deal. 5 hours later seller wants 50% more.

A closer comparison would be 'You agree to sell a watch to a dealer, agree a price, do a deal and leave them with the watch. 5 hours later you call the dealer and tell them you've made a mistake and want 50% more, and ask them to drop by your house and pay the extra or return the watch.'

[alfat33]

PhilipK, I really don't want to fall out with anyone, and certainly don't want to put words into Haywood's mouth. I felt like we were saying the same thing, albeit more eloquently put by him.

Out of interest did you realise at the time that the price was clearly too good to be true? If I had I might now be thinking that it was worth a try but fair play would be to unwind the deal and get a refund etc.

If the OP in his own mind feels it was a fair-to-good price then he should sleep easily. If he had known it was a mistakenly priced item (something which he has not suggested) then in his shoes I would feel honour-bound to try to remedy the position at least in part.

[MrGrumpy]

I would, out of principle, not return the watch without some kind of compensation. If nothing else, it's a waste of your time, because of their cock up.

Yes (apols if this has been suggested already).
I'd ring up the shop, say that you feel that you have no legal or moral obligation whatsoever to do anything, but that you are prepared to return the watch to them if they give you £100 compensation / goodwill gesture. They'd probably go for that as a £100 loss is better than a £600 one, and you'd have your money back and have an extra £100 in your pocket. You wouldn't have the watch of course - you'd have to work out whats most important!

[Itsguy]

These hypothetical non related stories are nonsense and not remotely close to what happened here.

Seller and buyer agree a price and do a deal. 5 hours later seller wants 50% more.

A closer comparison would be 'You agree to sell a watch to a dealer, agree a price, do a deal and leave them with the watch. 5 hours later you call the dealer and tell them you've made a mistake and want 50% more, and ask them to drop by your house and pay the extra or return the watch.'

It was not intended to be the same as the original case. I was refuting the idea hinted at in the post I actually quoted, that the example of rerversing a car into a bollard in a super market car park could be used to create a universal ethical system.

[steptoe]

Wouldn't it be ironic if the buyer later found out the watch was a fake...

[-Ally-]

Wouldn't it be ironic if the buyer later found out the watch was a fake...

Quite. But then I imagine he'd have recourse.

[gunman]

Yes (apols if this has been suggested already).
I'd ring up the shop, say that you feel that you have no legal or moral obligation whatsoever to do anything, but that you are prepared to return the watch to them if they give you £100 compensation / goodwill gesture. They'd probably go for that as a £100 loss is better than a £600 one, and you'd have your money back and have an extra £100 in your pocket. You wouldn't have the watch of course - you'd have to work out whats most important!

I'd doubt it, that would mean the watch has cost the dealer an extra £100. I'm sure he could buy another cheaper than that. We need to understand here, all the dealer is concerned with is profit and loss, he cares not for the OP being put out any and they haven't made a £600 (or actually £700) loss, as I doubt the watch cost them £1650!

[gunman]

Wouldn't it be ironic if the buyer later found out the watch was a fake...

How so? Are you implying this would be some sort of Karma?

[ronin]

OP, check out the watch and make sure it's the real thing! I think £950 for a Tag with no box and papers is a fair amount to pay for it.

I worked in the Jewellery and watch trade for a number of years. It's the fault of the shop. Luckily I never did anything like this but I know one or two people who did..

I would imagine they didn't pay a great amount for it so they didn't make as much as they wanted!

Steve

[-Ally-]

After 5 mins in the nearby watches of Switzerland I returned to the shop. He had placed the watch back in the window.

H&T ?

[stefmcd]

Yes (apols if this has been suggested already).
I'd ring up the shop, say that you feel that you have no legal or moral obligation whatsoever to do anything, but that you are prepared to return the watch to them if they give you £100 compensation / goodwill gesture. They'd probably go for that as a £100 loss is better than a £600 one, and you'd have your money back and have an extra £100 in your pocket. You wouldn't have the watch of course - you'd have to work out whats most important!

This crossed my mind. Then I envisage them being arsey about it!

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[stefmcd]

Wouldn't it be ironic if the buyer later found out the watch was a fake...

It's definitely not. I would have spotted that quickly.

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[stefmcd]

H&T ?

Ally or Sherlock?

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[Nuisance Value]

Yes (apols if this has been suggested already).
I'd ring up the shop, say that you feel that you have no legal or moral obligation whatsoever to do anything, but that you are prepared to return the watch to them if they give you £100 compensation / goodwill gesture. They'd probably go for that as a £100 loss is better than a £600 one, and you'd have your money back and have an extra £100 in your pocket. You wouldn't have the watch of course - you'd have to work out whats most important!

I wouldn't ring them up at all and I wouldn't be talking about 'returning' it or 'compensation / goodwill', it's his watch now. If they want to buy it then let them make an offer for it, otherwise keep and enjoy it. He's already paid a fair price, it's not like he only paid £95!

I don't see the issue really.

[Neil.C]

A proper pawnbroking transaction does not see the item bought but instead used as security for a loan. In the 15-20% of cases where the pledgor does not return, the business has to inform the borrower BY LAW as it happens (with a formal Advice of Sale letter) and in this scenario would have to pay most of that 50k back to the original borrower, on whose behalf it would be selling the item by private treaty.

In a true pawnbroking transaction, where the item is not reclaimed, there is also a legal onus on the pawnbroker to obtain fair market value for the borrower's property.

True pawnbroking is very different from what many people think it is.

The matter is confused by "buy-back" shops and others --- deliberately or unintentionally, you decide.

H

All true Haywood but given the rates that most pawnbrokers charge (around 100% a year) after the loan and interest are repaid there is sometimes very little that goes back to the borrower.

[Walesy]

I wouldn't ring them up at all and I wouldn't be talking about 'returning' it or 'compensation / goodwill', it's his watch now. If they want to buy it then let them make an offer for it, otherwise keep and enjoy it. He's already paid a fair price, it's not like he only paid £95!

I don't see the issue really.

+1...I wouldn't be in discussions with them at all if it were me if I am honest.

[MrGrumpy]

This crossed my mind. Then I envisage them being arsey about it!

Well, that would be their problem, not yours! Then you could walk away with a completely clear conscience.

[Dave+63]

Phoning them up and asking for goodwill/compensation has a whiff of a ransom demand to an outsider.
If it's going to be returned then it has to be at their expense/inconvenience. Let them correct their own mistake or keep the watch.

[snowman]

... I was offered £75. Needless to say I made my excuses and left.

Steve McQueen 'making his excuses' in Le Mans.

Well I'm pleased that someone as respected as Haywood, and with a first hand knowledge of pawnbroker sales, appears to have the same view as me. Can we put the 'villain' comments to bed now?

I don't think many of us gave them any credibility in the first place...

I wouldn't ring them up at all and I wouldn't be talking about 'returning' it or 'compensation / goodwill', it's his watch now. If they want to buy it then let them make an offer for it, otherwise keep and enjoy it. He's already paid a fair price, it's not like he only paid £95!

I don't see the issue really.

Exactly - £950 down from £1250 doesn't seem unreasonable for such a watch with no providence (remember not everyone looking at watches in a pawnbroker spend hours on a web forum about watches every week!).

The shop discussed price with him and agreed on £950. They didn't say "Oh my goodness, that's crazy - Someone's got this wrong". This person was involved in negotiation and didn't budge on price.

I don't think anyone would suggest £950 is a laughably small amount for this watch - A good deal, maybe, but not one that would lead him to 'expect it to be a mistake' (£250 maybe would count for that!)

The shop is trying it on in my opinion - I'd ring trading standards and ask them if they've had reports of anything similar in the past before talking to the shop again, but, honestly, I'd not be talking to them anyway unless they're ringing me back with some kind of compensation for my trouble.

M

[Itsguy]

How so? Are you implying this would be some sort of Karma?

It's an interest perspective. The standard question seems to be, what can I get out of this situation, how can I win. The idea that you will inevitably be on the receiving end of your own behaviour at some point certainly sharpens the mind.

[gregflat9]

So, you buy a watch, and then having bought it, you get home and find it on ebay for x% less.

You phone the watch shop back up and say, "either me the difference back, or have the watch back". What do you think the shop would say?

I doubt very much they'd be cordial about it. Sit it out. Let them get the courts involved... for the cost and only a 50/50 chance of winning... they'll just have to suck it up.

C'est la vie. Come ci, come ca!

[Odat]

Just keep the watch and enjoy it. I'm sure if it was the other way around, they would have probably just let it slide. Pawn shops are in the business of ripping people off anyway so maybe it was karma.

[Haywood_Milton]

All true Haywood but given the rates that most pawnbrokers charge (around 100% a year) after the loan and interest are repaid there is sometimes very little that goes back to the borrower.

I can tell you that just ONE of my shops has paid back a six figure sum to (happily surprised) clients in recent years, from sales of their items that have realised more than the loan capital, interest and costs of sale to which we are entitled.

As for rates, this is where the nonsense of APRs applied to loans of less than a year becomes very confusing. The longest pawnbroking loan contract term I know is seven months. Many independents also charge a lot less than the biggest companies, whom you probably see most.

When it comes to rates on short term loans, I like these three comparisons :

(1) I arrive in London for the night and at hotel reception am offered a room rate of £100. Do I jump up and down screaming "that's £36,500 a year for one room!" or do I remark "My good man, that's a cracking rate for an instant facility available on demand; I shall readily stay here."

(2) While packing for the Cellini Fan Club Annual Convention, a delegate is distracted by the sweet voice of Elaine Paige on R2 and leaves his slimline travel wallet under a copy of Top Gear. On arrival, he has to borrow £50 from a helpful chum. The borrower is later delighted to buy his saviour a Spritzer at the closing bash, by way of thanks. Now, that £2 gesture on a £50 loan would represent an APR in thousands of percent that would have the well-meaning but ignorant frothing at the mouth. In accepting it, has the lender's behaviour been worse than Wonga's?

(3) A taxi is massively more expensive per mile than a train. If trains did what taxis can, we would always travel by train. However, just as you are happy to pay a taxi's rates to get your child home from a party or your pregnant wife to the hospital door-to-door, so many people are willing to pay a commercial rate for a financial facility which is equally immediate and flexible like few others.

Alex.....if I see these three on your website there'll be trouble ;-)

H

[Haywood_Milton]

I'm sure if it was the other way around, they would have probably just let it slide. Pawn shops are in the business of ripping people off anyway so maybe it was karma.

Speak for the USA pawn-shops if you like. UK law and practice is far more honourable, thanks very much.

We did catch "buy-back" shops from the Australians, but that is a different, unregulated business.

[wildheart]

As others have said if your happy with it keep it. No moral issue here.

I know its slightly different ...I'm selling a pair of golf wedges on ebay at the moment, I bought them from the states with duty I paid roughly £120 two years ago. Two guys have got into a bidding (drunken) war and at the moment they stand at £126 +... you could buy new ones for he same price! I feel like telling them to stop but come midnight they start bidding crazy! I only wanted £50!!

[astonandy]

A healthy legal and to some extent moral debate. If we imagine the scenario with a little more (fictional) detail how would this play for everyone?

"Oh hello OP. We sold you a watch yesterday for £950 but now find that someone else who was interested is willing to pay £1650 for it so we'd like it back to sell it to them so we can make an additional £700. We'll expect you shortly."

I am not sure that this is any different than what has been described. They are asking to reverse the transaction because they now realise they could have sold it for more. It's not the £12.00 rather than £1200 misread label scenario from another post. They agreed a price. OP paid it. End of transaction - as another poster said, if it'd been a transaction not requiring a name and address they'd have had no way of contacting him or disputing the sale once completed.

I have honestly never heard of this happening in over 25 years working with luxury goods retailers (not even with genuine mis-pricing mistakes)

[Argee1977]

I think there's lots of opinions, with very little information, if we knew what the actual 'sales corner' value of this watch was, minus box and papers, as well as condition, etc and then marked that against the amount the pawnbroker paid for it i'd say you'd have a clearer picture.

For me personally, i think the prices would be quite close together (buyers price and sellers original cost), so i'm more surprised at the pawnbroker calling the poster out of the blue on this one and asking for its return or more money, it gives me a picture of a shop that isn't as professionally run as it could be, as i'd dare say most areas would write this one off as error that had a very low cost associated and make sure staff are trained properly and protocols are in place to stop this happening again.

[peter2704]

Keep it ,they should know there market and value things correctly.They may not of shown much compassion when the guy who brought it to them walked in? "Mmm no box or papers sir ,that really affects the price we can give you against it,everyone wants boxes and papers,but we will take a chance on this occasion."

[Morning Wood]

I think there's lots of opinions, with very little information, if we knew what the actual 'sales corner' value of this watch was, minus box and papers, as well as condition, etc and then marked that against the amount the pawnbroker paid for it i'd say you'd have a clearer picture.

For me personally, i think the prices would be quite close together (buyers price and sellers original cost), so i'm more surprised at the pawnbroker calling the poster out of the blue on this one and asking for its return or more money, it gives me a picture of a shop that isn't as professionally run as it could be, as i'd dare say most areas would write this one off as error that had a very low cost associated and make sure staff are trained properly and protocols are in place to stop this happening again.

Earlier I did ask for an informed opinion of how much a pawn shop would likely buy in a watch that they eventually have for sale at 1650, but it's no surprise that the silence has been deafening thus far.

[Haywood_Milton]

Earlier I did ask for an informed opinion of how much a pawn shop would likely buy in a watch that they eventually have for sale at 1650, but it's no surprise that the silence has been deafening thus far.

I gave you an answer. Was written English not the preferred medium?

[Saint-Just]

Earlier I did ask for an informed opinion of how much a pawn shop would likely buy in a watch that they eventually have for sale at 1650, but it's no surprise that the silence has been deafening thus far.

May be you need to read the thread more carefully. I ventured an estimate and HM came and re-evaluated it. At the end of the day, the only ones who know are the former owner and the pawn broker. I am personally 100% convinced they paid significantly less than the £950 they got, but I do have HW's knowledge about that specific trade.
Moreover, and based I admit on very little evidence but reading between the lines the OP wrote about how the transaction went, and how they were over the phone I said I would not be surprised if it was a trick they tried on some customers, as they have strictly nothing to lose trying to extract a few more bobs, having already secured the sale at a price they were happy with.

[AlphaOmega]

When it comes to rates on short term loans, I like these three comparisons :

(1) I arrive in London for the night and at hotel reception am offered a room rate of £100. Do I jump up and down screaming "that's £36,500 a year for one room!" or do I remark "My good man, that's a cracking rate for an instant facility available on demand; I shall readily stay here."

(2) While packing for the Cellini Fan Club Annual Convention, a delegate is distracted by the sweet voice of Elaine Paige on R2 and leaves his slimline travel wallet under a copy of Top Gear. On arrival, he has to borrow £50 from a helpful chum. The borrower is later delighted to buy his saviour a Spritzer at the closing bash, by way of thanks. Now, that £2 gesture on a £50 loan would represent an APR in thousands of percent that would have the well-meaning but ignorant frothing at the mouth. In accepting it, has the lender's behaviour been worse than Wonga's?

(3) A taxi is massively more expensive per mile than a train. If trains did what taxis can, we would always travel by train. However, just as you are happy to pay a taxi's rates to get your child home from a party or your pregnant wife to the hospital door-to-door, so many people are willing to pay a commercial rate for a financial facility which is equally immediate and flexible like few others.

H

I'd liken it to being at the top of a mountain, and Haywood pops up with a restorative cup of tea and a sandwich - just what you need to tide you over. The price isn't cheap, but you could always wait until you reach sea level where you'll pay a lot less and have to stand in a three-hour queue.

[Morning Wood]

I gave you an answer. Was written English not the preferred medium?

Sorry about that I must have missed the post and figure you gave, could you tell me what post number you are referring to?

[PJ S]

As others have said if your happy with it keep it. No moral issue here.

I know its slightly different ...I'm selling a pair of golf wedges on ebay at the moment, I bought them from the states with duty I paid roughly £120 two years ago. Two guys have got into a bidding (drunken) war and at the moment they stand at £126 +... you could buy new ones for he same price! I feel like telling them to stop but come midnight they start bidding crazy! I only wanted £50!!

I wouldn’t get too excited yet, you still have to be paid for them – and hope they don’t get broken or lost after being posted!

[thegreatdogwood]

This crossed my mind. Then I envisage them being arsey about it!

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OK then how about you require they donate £100 to a charity of your choice. That really takes the moral high ground then and a good cause is ultimately the beneficiary

[thenikjones]

Sorry about that I must have missed the post and figure you gave, could you tell me what post number you are referring to?

I'll go for #140 - as he hasn't seen it, he can't give a precise figure (assuming I read the post correctly)

[jwg663]

H&T ?

The last time I looked in the window of that emporium in Bath St. (several years ago, I may add), a burly chap demanded that I take hold of the leads of his two bull terriers whilst he entered to transact some business. I believe he said, 'Haud ma dugs while Ah'm in ra shoap.' He didn't quite believe I had the gall to decline & called me several pejorative terms as I walked away.

As to the OP: you've overthunk this. You paid the asking price, from a commercial enterprise. That's all, no need for any angst.

[Morning Wood]

I'll go for #140 - as he hasn't seen it, he can't give a precise figure (assuming I read the post correctly)

I did see that one, but it failed to give a figure to a simple question and only served to produce vague amount of fluff, but did anyone expect a direct answer from someone so heavily involved in the trade, me thinks not.

[Odat]

Speak for the USA pawn-shops if you like. UK law and practice is far more honourable, thanks very much.

We did catch "buy-back" shops from the Australians, but that is a different, unregulated business.

Yes I'm talking about the US. Of course not every pawn shop is the same but the majority will straight up rip the consumer off. I understand they have to make money but they're too greedy!. Many will offer 30% of the value of the gold!.