Private road help

[pitbull666]

Hoping someone on forum can offer some advice on this please

I live at the end of a private road where there is a turning area, two of my neighbours also face onto this so in essence all three of us own and are responsible for a section of it.

My business is registered to my home address but my job is an appliance engineer so I'm on the road in my van all day but once a week I will get a delivery of appliances these will turn up on a 2 axle lorry now the lorry drivers differ most weeks but most of the time they'll drive down the road and then three point turn in the turning area and drive back out.

Now my issue is one neighbour has complained that these lorries are damaging the road surface and will occur him costs due to the road needing to be resurface earlier then expected, now given I've been in the house 5 years and have had deliveries since week one I can't see any real change in the road surface but I'm not expert.

He has suggested that I request the driver reverse down but as said I tend to get different driver each time, and to be honest I have asked them to before and they never bother if it is a repeat driver, even mention it to the supplying company to note on the delivery instructions.

He's a nice neighbour and I'd prefer to sort it at both parties agreement but before I speak with him I wondered were I legally stand getting business deliveries to my home and can he really say these lorries are doing that amount of damage when I can't see any.

Any advice welcome

On a side note I was going to just say to him if the road does need to be resurfaced I'd pay a higher % of the cost.

[andy armitage]

Well you did ask :) if I were your neighbor it would really piss me off with someone running a business from home that resulted in appliances being delivered I would check that you don't need planning permission for this use as receiving regular deliveries does have an impact on neighbors!

I did live in a 4 house private drive and if a neighbor had done this I would not have been happy at all! I certainly wouldn't want to pay for any damage caused by regular deliveries to your house even if you did pay more as there is no doubt a lorry will cause damage in time.


This is worth a read http://blog.thebigpropertylist.co.uk...work-from-home

Your home is a home not a warehouse:)

[pitbull666]

Well you did ask :) if I were your neighbor it would really piss me off with someone running a business from home that resulted in appliances being delivered I would check that you don't need planning permission for this use as receiving regular deliveries does have an impact on neighbors!

I did live in a 4 house private drive and if a neighbor had done this I would not have been happy at all! I certainly wouldn't want to pay for any damage caused by regular deliveries to your house even if you did pay more as there is no doubt a lorry will cause damage in time.


This is worth a read http://blog.thebigpropertylist.co.uk...work-from-home

Your home is a home not a warehouse:)

A valid point but personally feel one delivery a week will not impact on my neighbours to any real degree! This delivery is the only event arising from my business being based at home,

For background I run a small van and with the nature of my business no one comes to my house to do with business etc I just tend to get 1-3 ovens delivered a week in one delivery which goes straight in the garage until needed, so for the fact of this lorry once a week there is no other indications or effect on my neighbours.

[afcneal]

1-3 ovens will fit in a small Transit van. Logic says ask your supplier to decant the load - same as he would if access was difficult?

[andy armitage]

A valid point but personally feel one delivery a week will not impact on my neighbours to any real degree! This delivery is the only event arising from my business being based at home, I run a small van and no one comes to my house to do with business etc I just tend to get 1-3 ovens delivered a week in one delivery which goes straight in the garage until needed.

It's still one delivery a week and it would still annoy me and I am a very tolerant person but your home is your home not somewhere that warrants a lorry coming once a week delivering ovens and if the neighbor has told you of his concerns then there must be some!

[andy armitage]

1-3 ovens will fit in a small Transit van. Logic says ask your supplier to decant the load - same as he would if access was difficult?

Good point and if I were the neighbor a transit van wouldn't bother me at all but a lorry would.

[Agd47]

I've no idea of the legality of your situation, but is 1 delivery of goods a week that big of a deal! Crikey he's hardly having a rave every wknd it's one van!! I'd ask him to point out exactly where the roads degraded in the time you've been getting deliveries.

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[pitbull666]

Actually that is an idea as I could get them dropped off at a friends unit and I could collect from there.

Just for context though said neighbour does have a caravan next to his house which are forbidden in the deeds or whatever it is, I know this doesn't cause damage like the lorry but you would of thought as I turned a blind into it when I another neighbor complained about that (but not my deliveries) but there you go.

I'll approach him in the new year and offer the above solution.

[andy armitage]

I've no idea of the legality of your situation, but is 1 delivery of goods a week that big of a deal! Crikey he's hardly having a rave every wknd it's one van!! I'd ask him to point out exactly where the roads degraded in the time you've been getting deliveries.

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It's not a van it's a lorry a bit of a difference a van I wouldn't have a problem with but a lorry I would, I can almost hear it beeping going back and fro to get out of the drive if it were me I would meet the lorry and get the delivery into my van and consider my neighbours.

[andy armitage]

Actually that is an idea as I could get them dropped off at a friends unit and I could collect from there.

Just for context though said neighbour does have a caravan next to his house which are forbidden in the deeds or whatever it is, I know this doesn't cause damage like the lorry but you would of thought as I turned a blind into it when I another neighbor complained about that (but not my deliveries) but there you go.

I'll approach him in the new year and offer the above solution.

Great solution but don't get me going on caravans at a private address I hate them they are an eyesore and no way should be allowed on a drive hmmm maybe I am not that tolerant after all :) offer him the solution so long as he gets rid of that caravan :)

[pitbull666]

Thanks for advice.

In all honest I agree and think one delivery is not a problem but I do have to live here so would prefer to get on with them even if I don't agree.

Maybe I'll offer the van solution and mention the caravan at the same time, if he backs down then fine if not I've just collect in the van and be done, to be honest the caravan didn't bother me so not pushing for that to be removed.

[Agd47]

It's not a van it's a lorry a bit of a difference a van I wouldn't have a problem with but a lorry I would, I can almost hear it beeping going back and fro to get out of the drive if it were me I would meet the lorry and get the delivery into my van and consider my neighbours.

This is where things can get quite petty but I have a lorry delivery of windows once a week and live in a Cul de sac. Now I've never had an issue with the neighbours but as I have one van and they have two cars per household and every Friday and sunday they regularly block the road with relatives and grand kids visiting sometimes 6 cars at a time. I would argue that there's more wear on the road with their smaller but larger volume of traffic than 1 lorry once a week.

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[Velorum]

Great solution but don't get me going on caravans at a private address I hate them they are an eyesore and no way should be allowed on a drive hmmm maybe I am not that tolerant after all :) offer him the solution so long as he gets rid of that caravan :)

I agree with this. In certain road / housing layouts they are a dreadful eyesore.

I live in a small cul de sac and my wifes Peugeot campervan (parked on the drive) sticks out like a sore thumb. I will be pleased to get rid of the damn thing come spring time.

[pitbull666]

I'll update once spoken with him.

If my next question is about patio laying it clearly didn't go well!

[aldfort]

Tread very carefully OP.

One word to the council about running such a business from your home could see you re-rated for business rates. This too might be a no-no in your deeds, it's not uncommon.
Our local council has guidance on working from home v running a business from home and one of the things it mentions as a specific is the receipt and dispatch of deliveries of goods or materials.

[deryckb]

Tread very carefully OP.

One word to the council about running such a business from your home could see you re-rated for business rates. This too might be a no-no in your deeds, it's not uncommon.
Our local council has guidance on working from home v running a business from home and one of the things it mentions as a specific is the receipt and dispatch of deliveries of goods or materials.

My understanding was that this sort of business would be exempt, do you know different?

[stifflersmom]

This is where things can get quite petty but I have a lorry delivery of windows once a week and live in a Cul de sac. Now I've never had an issue with the neighbours but as I have one van and they have two cars per household and every Friday and sunday they regularly block the road with relatives and grand kids visiting sometimes 6 cars at a time. I would argue that there's more wear on the road with their smaller but larger volume of traffic than 1 lorry once a week.

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Unlikely....road damage scales with the 4th power of axle weight so as vehicle weight doubles the road damage is multiplied up 16 times.

[Bristolian]

Firstly you need to know whether it is a public highway or not. Being privately owned doesn't stop it potentially being subject to a public right of way.

If it isn't you'll need to find out who owns the land on which the road is laid out (someone will) and what your (private) rights over it are.

You should, having found the answers to those points, be able to work out if your use of the road for a business related purpose is permitted or not. If it is, then your problem seems merely to be one of keeping good relations with your neighbour - always a sound investment.

[pitbull666]

Tread very carefully OP.

One word to the council about running such a business from your home could see you re-rated for business rates. This too might be a no-no in your deeds, it's not uncommon.
Our local council has guidance on working from home v running a business from home and one of the things it mentions as a specific is the receipt and dispatch of deliveries of goods or materials.

Council are aware of my business and I'm exempt due to the nature/volume it's all above board the only thing I have to do is dispose of my buiness waste at my cost (funnily enough I do work for them), as said other the postman pat and the odd DPD visit once or twice a month the only traffic my business receives is this delivery which is once a week.

My query was more if he complained etc concerned the above could be changed or stopped totally which would have a negative impact on me, that's why liked the option above about decanting it into a smaller van which up until recently I ran an astravan which wouldn't of been big above but just changed to a connect which would hence not thinking about that as an option before.

[pitbull666]

Firstly you need to know whether it is a public highway or not. Being privately owned doesn't stop it potentially being subject to a public right of way.

If it isn't you'll need to find out who owns the land on which the road is laid out (someone will) and what your (private) rights over it are.

You should, having found the answers to those points, be able to work out if your use of the road for a business related purpose is permitted or not. If it is, then your problem seems merely to be one of keeping good relations with your neighbour - always a sound investment.

I assume if that was an issue it would of came up when dealing with the council, how would I go about finding these details?

[aldfort]

I assume if that was an issue it would of came up when dealing with the council, how would I go about finding these details?

Land Registry, your deeds and whoever did your conveyancing are all good sources of information.
You live on a road which is unadopted or over which you have a right of access.
The council may also be able give you some information.
Who is responsible for maintaining the road? What documentation do you have to make these responsibilities clear?
Is there some sort of residents committee?

[reggie747]

You mention that there is no damage to the road what you can see. What can he see then or is he speculating on damage before it's occurred ?
You also say he's a nice neighbour. Maybe he needs to be re-classified as a not so nice neighbour (i.e. A tosser, in fact).
Does this tosser work or not PB ??

[BillyCasper]

I have no opinion on this. Am neutral.

There are a number of studies on the disproportionate road wear caused by multi axle HGVs.

I can't remember it exactly, something like:

Say a car is 2t
Say an HGV is 40t

The HGV is 20 times heavier than the car.

The wear of the HGV is (power of 4) 20x20x20x20 = 160,000 x greater than the car.

It sounds mad, but it's something like that.


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[pitbull666]

I have no opinion on this. Am neutral.

There are a number of studies on the disproportionate road wear caused by multi axle HGVs.

I can't remember it exactly, something like:

Say a car is 2t
Say an HGV is 40t

The HGV is 20 times heavier than the car.

The wear of the HGV is (power of 4) 20x20x20x20 = 160,000 x greater than the car.

It sounds mad, but it's something like that.


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My deliveries are coming in a 2 axle so max load is I think just under 20t and doubt they are loaded anywhere capacity as it only washing machine and ovens.

Yes even this will wear more then a car but we have 1-2 bin lorries a week plus everyone uses it to turn their car around and going from pic I have not long after we moved in I cannot see any difference in the road surface.

But I'm going to have a chat and see if we can come to some sort of agreement

[BillyCasper]

So a RCV is 26t and car 1.5t.

26/1.5 = 17.67

17.67(4) = 98,000 more wear from a RCV than car,

Your neighbour might argue that the RCV performs a communal service. I guess the design spec of the road is also important.

Turning HGV can cause problems, I experienced this on a distribution centre where the surface had not been laid properly.

As I said I have no PoV on this matter. Agreement between you and your neighbour sounds very sensible.


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[seikopath]

Surprised no one has mentioned a letter box yet

[burnside]

Although it is always nice to be friends with your neighbours one delivery a week is hardly onerous or taking the piss. Neither is it forbidden in the deeds unlike his caravan.

Road damage, sounds unlikely.

I think he is not being a good neighbour or particularly fair to you. But that's just my opinion.

Why not offer him one of your items at a keen price as a sweetener.

Good luck with it all.

Regards

Ben

[Morning Wood]

I agree with this. In certain road / housing layouts they are a dreadful eyesore.

I live in a small cul de sac and my wifes Peugeot campervan (parked on the drive) sticks out like a sore thumb. I will be pleased to get rid of the damn thing come spring time.

You mean the Peugeot?

[Morning Wood]

Your neighbour seems to be one of those one rule for him and another set for everyone one else, remind him that his caravan is in contravention of the deeds and propose that both issues will need to either be addressed or left as they are.

[draftsmann]

Your neighbour seems to be one of those one rule for him and another set for everyone one else, remind him that his caravan is in contravention of the deeds and propose that both issues will need to either be addressed or left as they are.

"Dear Neighbour,

Following our recent conversation and despite my business being properly registered to and operating from my address I have, in the interests of neighbourly relations, made alternative arrangements so that in future appliances will be delivered to and from my premises by panel van instead of lorry.

In the course of examining and taking advice on the title deeds for our respective homes and shared private road, I find that your keeping a caravan on your premises is in contravention of a covenant preventing such vehicles being parked there. I therefore trust you will remove it in the near future.

As a further demonstration of neighbourliness on my part, I am prepared to leave that matter for fourteen days from the date hereof, after which action may be taken without further notice.

Yours sincerely,

PB"

[wombleh]

The council recycling truck keeps causing pot holes in a private road near our house by doing three point turns on it and that only comes once a week. They also denied it and expected the guy living at the end to pay for it, until presented with photos at which point they came and patched the hole.

I don't think he is being out of order. If your business operation is causing cost then it seems fair to ask you too either cover that cost or change things. Personally I'd avoid getting into tit-for-tat over covenants as it'll never end well and do you really really want to spend your time that way?

[walkerwek1958]

Agree with some of the points raised, but disagree with others.

I don't think the OP is doing anything unreasonable provided the deliveries are only once/week. I also believe it makes a lot of sense to keep on good terms with neighbours if possible. The neighbour's concern regarding the road may be genuine, or it could simply be his way of justifying the fact that he doesn't like it. As for the potential to cause damage, I'm no expert, but if this has been going on for 5 years and there's no sign of localised damage I would contend that the road surface is bearing up to the stresses without problems. Perhaps this should be pointed out to the neighbour?

If the local bin wagon and recycling wagon also turn around once/fortnight it could be argued that the access road is already having to carry similar axle weight to the delivery lorry. It's therefore a matter of degree and frequency, it's not as if the delivery lorry is exclusively the only vehicle with high axle weight that uses the road.

I don't know how easy it is to do this, but getting a friendly civil engineer to assess whether the road is suitable for the axle weight is another possible way forward. Getting an expert opinion might help placate the neighbour if his objection is based on genuine concern, but if it's an excuse to grumble it won't do any good because he'll find some other reason to object.

As for the caravan, I wouldn't mention it. It smacks of playing tit for tat and I don't see how it helps the relationship with the neighbour. However, It might be worth checking the by-laws to see whether he is breaking any rules; caravans aren't allowed on driveways on our estate because the'd stand in front of the building line. If the relationship deteriorates this could be a useful bargaining tool.

If all else fails you could always invest in a new patio to coincide with the neighbour's mysterious disappearance

Paul

[johny]

hi op.

as you say that your neighbour is a reasonable person perhaps having the road professionally inspected would be the thing to do.

[Tahiti]

The council recycling truck keeps causing pot holes in a private road near our house by doing three point turns on it and that only comes once a week. They also denied it and expected the guy living at the end to pay for it, until presented with photos at which point they came and patched the hole.

... And shortly after required all bins to be placed in a public space rather than having to travel up the private road?

[Agd47]

"Dear Neighbour,

Following our recent conversation and despite my business being properly registered to and operating from my address I have, in the interests of neighbourly relations, made alternative arrangements so that in future appliances will be delivered to and from my premises by panel van instead of lorry.

In the course of examining and taking advice on the title deeds for our respective homes and shared private road, I find that your keeping a caravan on your premises is in contravention of a covenant preventing such vehicles being parked there. I therefore trust you will remove it in the near future.

As a further demonstration of neighbourliness on my part, I am prepared to leave that matter for fourteen days from the date hereof, after which action may be taken without further notice.

Yours sincerely,

PB"

That's the ticket!! Type it up and get it sent.

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[seadog1408]

That's the ticket!! Type it up and get it sent.

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Really?, thought it was crass, petty and up its own arse, would cause more problems IMO.


mike

[Kingstepper]

... And shortly after required all bins to be placed in a public space rather than having to travel up the private road?

Just what I was thinking. If the road isn't suitable are they supposed to build one?

[JasonM]

I think the earlier suggestion of having the road surface inspected is a good one, if its fine then you can prove to the neighbour there is nothing to worry about, if its not ok and the lorry is genuinely causing damage then you can be glad you found out and stop the deliveries to your door, I suspect however the neighbours worry about the road surface is an excuse and his issue is that he doesn't want to see or hear a HGV beeping near his drive once a week.
Good luck with it, getting on with your neighbours is a good thing.

[Agd47]

Really?, thought it was crass, petty and up its own arse, would cause more problems IMO.


mike

Yes it probably is and will cause a fair ammount of bad feeling between the neighbours. But sometimes diplomacy doesn't work with these type of individuals and it has to be met with kind. This is a guy earning a living, with deliveries I'm assuming being made throughout the day and not a night once a week. I'm sorry but this neighbour sounds like a tool! Send it! Lol!

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[draftsmann]

Really?, thought it was crass, petty and up its own arse, would cause more problems IMO.


mike

As an opening gambit it would be all the above, yes. But if politeness and diplomacy fall on deaf ears then why not let the neighbour reap what he sows?

[thieuster]

I have read the whole thread and wise things have been said, including the OP's 'What's you opinion?' opening, leaving room for all sorts of suggestions. One thing's not mentioned yet: at what time does the truck deliver the goods? That can be important for the neighbour; let's say it's at 6 AM, things are different from 11 AM! (I used to live across a plant nursery. And yes big lorries went in and out to deliver plants. But I knew that before we bought the house - and I didn't mind. As a side effect: it was the best burglar defense possible: all day long, men and women were working facing the front of my house. Once, a guy tried to brake into the house but was stopped in his tracks and chased off by 5 blokes from the nursery!)

The complain about the road being destroyed is only a 'tool' for him to tell you that he's annoyed. Is he at home all day? Perhaps that's his real problem: not getting out enough!

Like the others say, a survey of the road would be a good idea. However, I wouldn't mention it on forehand. Just keep quiet and have it inspected. Try to find one that works for the council as well, or for a council next to yours. Have it done while you're not at home so that he cannot connect the surveyor and you together. If he's at home all day, he'll be rushing out to ask the surveyors what they are doing. Make sure they don't mention you as the person who asked them!

Same goes for the caravan. Don't mention it until you know where you are, legal-wise. He surprised you with his complaint, surprise him with the fact that you took action without saying and that -being a good neighbour- you didn't mention the caravan as a result of his complain.

Menno

[eagletower]

My opinion is forget the caravan. They're your neighbours after all and it's best to get on with them.

I don't think he's being unreasonable personally. He's asked you to get the drivers to reverse down the lane. Not stop them altogether.

[johny]

hi op. do your neighbours have kids/grand kids? a reversing lorry in the street may be very dangerous.

[pitbull666]

To answer a few Q's

I'm the only one on the street with young children as most of my neighbors are retired.

Deliveries are always scheduled between 10-4 for the above reasons

I think I may have got to the bottom of the reason why it's come to a head and I'm going to speak to the delivery company about one of their drivers.

Thanks for input and got a few angles to try and come to a reasonable solution with my neighbour.

[Tahiti]

I think I may have got to the bottom of the reason why it's come to a head and I'm going to speak to the delivery company about one of their drivers.

I have visions of the delivery driver taking a short cut over your neighbour's specimen lawn.

Hope you get it sorted. Private driveways can be an interesting issue when it comes to maintenance (ours needs fixing, and with four houses involved, I can't see everyone agreeing on the same plan of action).

[reggie747]

speak to the delivery company about one of their drivers.

Sounds like you're a step closer to dealing with the root cause. A big gob in the midst ?

[wombleh]

Just what I was thinking. If the road isn't suitable are they supposed to build one?

I'd have to ask my my neighbor, the road is effectively a shared driveway between 4 houses which the council denied using at all, possibly they made the wrong argument and would have done better to just deny liability but I don't know the detail, I mention it more to show that such infrequent use can damage road surfaces.

Good to hear the OP can resolve it amicably, always better to get on with your neighbors.

[pitbull666]

I have visions of the delivery driver taking a short cut over your neighbour's specimen lawn.

Hope you get it sorted. Private driveways can be an interesting issue when it comes to maintenance (ours needs fixing, and with four houses involved, I can't see everyone agreeing on the same plan of action).

Sounds like you're a step closer to dealing with the root cause. A big gob in the midst ?

Well apparently on my last delivery the driver was a little eager/hasty on his three point turn and caused my neighbour some alarm as the lorry narrowly missed his car, no damage done but can see where this concern has come from (keep in mind though the both his cars where parked side by side taking up most of the turning area!)

I've spoken to him and my delivery company and just request a call prior to each visit by the driver and I then request the reverse down the road, I'll see how this goes while possibly looking to arrange either a driver every other week or to a different location (and to add if the lorry was to reverse down that's having them three point turn on another part of the private road so just moving the issue, which was my neighbours suggestion)

[johny]

what was the decision about the road damage?

[pitbull666]

what was the decision about the road damage?

Well no argument really as visually there is no change in the road in the last 5 year we have been here, during and after the above conversation its wasn't taken any further so I've not had it inspected.

Also as above I think it just came to a head over one delivery and he used all possible issues to add weight to his argument.

Want to keep my neighbours happy so I've done the above and see what happens.