Winter tyres... do you bother ?

[snowman]

That is incorrect. The advantage for summer tyres doesn’t exist, and certainly not below 11°C on the dry, much hotter on the wet. The difference is that winter tyres will wear faster in hotter weather.

Got some evidence for this? I've driven on winter tyres.

Summer tyres grip better (actually pretty sure most tyres are all season in the uk) on dry roads at even pretty low temperatures, that is why we don't use winter tyres all the time (well some tyres are designed with a low wear rate of course, but that isn't a universal difference).

M

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[bootneck]

I’ve been using winter tyres for as long as I can remember normally swap wheels around the end of October and then back again around end of March, this year I’ve gone for all seasons (cross climates) needed new tyres and couldn’t find sensibly priced wheels for my van to get a second set. On the whole I’ve been very impressed with the cross climates through the warmer months they came into their own yesterday when we had icey conditions on a rear wheel drive empty van they coped extremely well. I’m sure full on winter tyres would be better but for the U.K. I reckon these will be ideal provided they give the mileage I expect I’ll be buying them again and it saves swapping wheels.

[danmiddle2]

(actually pretty sure most tyres are all season in the uk)

I do not believe that is true, most people drive all year on what are considered "summer tyres". Just have a look on the likes of blackcircles or equivalent... you'll see that most of the default options they present are summer tyres.

From what I have read, all but one brand of all season tyres are based on winter tyres, the exception being the Michelin CrossClimates, which started life as a set of summer tyres.

I think it's important not to oversimplify. There is also a huge difference between cheap, mid and expensive tyres regardless of whether they are summer / all season or winter tyres.

[Bravo73]

But, what about all those winter days when it's 7 or above? I'd be endangering me and those around me if I had winter tyres on!

Ridiculous. You would be absolutely fine on winter tyres in temperatures above 7 degs. Better than on summer tyres in temps below 7.

(actually pretty sure most tyres are all season in the uk)

Nope. The majority of cars in the UK (I’d guess at >95%) are sold with summer tyres. All season tyres have a very different tread pattern to summer tyres.


This thread is riddled with the same sort of misperceptions and mistruths about winter tyres that are prevelant throughout the majority of UK drivers.

[Valkyrie]

Just bought some new all-season Vredsteins to put on my new Skoda Kodiak 4x4. Kind of annoying that none of the car makers will supply cars on all season tyres, even as an option. I asked why and was told it's because it might effect the emissions and mpg figures slightly.


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[snowman]

I'm beginning to sense an apple vs ms holy war here.

Let's have some evidence that winter tyres are as good as non winter tyres on a dry road above 7c or 10c or any temp.

I think it's hogwash.

M

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[Saint-Just]

Tests are normalised. Braking tests are made at 25°C. So you’ll be vindicated by any standard test.

[stuie-t]

I had winter tyres on my X5 last year (Pirelli Scorpions) and it seemed to understeer a lot more when not particularly cold (say >5c). I’ll probably just keep the summer tyres (Pirelli p-zero) on this winter.


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[Saint-Just]

Other tests have shown that the deficit in performance at 20°C for a premium winter tyre over a premium summer tyre is around 10%, whereas the reverse at 5°C is around 50%+. That was a few years ago.

[Filterlab]

Winter tyres... do you bother ?

No.

I’m a good enough driver that they offer no advantage whatsoever at an expense I don’t need. 700 miles a week for almost 25 years in every weather condition known to man and not a single problem on ‘normal’ tyres.

[Saint-Just]

The extra expense only exists if you swap cars regularly. Otherwise it’s negligible over the life of both sets.

[Kirk280]

No.

I’m a good enough driver that they offer no advantage whatsoever at an expense I don’t need. 700 miles a week for almost 25 years in every weather condition known to man and not a single problem on ‘normal’ tyres.

Your control is only as good as your contact to the road.

[Kingstepper]

The extra expense only exists if you swap cars regularly. Otherwise it’s negligible over the life of both sets.

Depends - tyres degrade over time and may need replacing after 5-6 years even if there is tread left.

[Saint-Just]

I can’t remember a set that lasted 6 years. But more than 3, yes. I wouldn’t feel the need to replace them based on age.

[Franky Four Fingers]

I'm beginning to sense an apple vs ms holy war here.

Let's have some evidence that winter tyres are as good as non winter tyres on a dry road above 7c or 10c or any temp.

I think it's hogwash.

M

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https://youtu.be/elP_34ltdWI

Im glad I found this video from a few years back where they tested summer and winter tyres on snow in Sweden with the same vehicles,
from about 3 minutes in is very interesting also, I always assumed that winter tyres were pointless for certain temperatures above but I was wrong.

[Bravo73]

I’m a good enough driver that they offer no advantage whatsoever at an expense I don’t need. 700 miles a week for almost 25 years in every weather condition known to man and not a single problem on ‘normal’ tyres.

Mwahahaha.


That statement just proves my previous point:

This thread is riddled with the same sort of misperceptions and mistruths about winter tyres that are prevelant throughout the majority of UK drivers.

[snowman]

https://youtu.be/elP_34ltdWI

Im glad I found this video from a few years back where they tested summer and winter tyres on snow in Sweden with the same vehicles,
from about 3 minutes in is very interesting also, I always assumed that winter tyres were pointless for certain temperatures above but I was wrong.

That, though, proves that the winter tyre is better in the wet at below 7C...

It's a pretty cold day today and the sun is going down, but it's still 7C and bone dry here.

M

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[Kingstepper]

My last tyres were replaced due to perishing after 5 years/40,000 miles.

[Franky Four Fingers]

That, though, proves that the winter tyre is better in the wet at below 7C...

It's a pretty cold day today and the sun is going down, but it's still 7C and bone dry here.

M

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It was only just below 7degress and certainly above freezing, which is typical for most days in the UK

[Padders]

That, though, proves that the winter tyre is better in the wet at below 7C...

It's a pretty cold day today and the sun is going down, but it's still 7C and bone dry here.

M

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I think the point is that yes, while winter tyres have a slight disadvantage in dry traction and wear above 7-8 degrees, they provide massive advantages in very wet weather, ice or snow or on dry roads when the temperature falls near to zero. It isn't a case of the advantages and disadvantages being remotely equal, with winter tyres fitted you may lose a metre braking from 40mph in the dry on that occasional dry warm winter day at 12deg for instance, but gain 5, 10 or even 15m once it lashes down with rain or the temperature falls to nearer zero. Horses for courses, pure winter tyres don't make sense April to October but much more so the other months.

The sensible solution for the UK is probably the all weather tyres like cross climate. Those that say 'I have driven miles and never needed them' sound to me a little like those who refused to wear seat belts or bemoan the drink drive limits. Just because it was done one way for a while doesn't mean it can't be be done better.

[snowman]

If I lived up north, I'd probably buy them now, much the same way I skied without a helmet for 20 years, but now wear one, but I'm not convinced of the value for the odd day I'd benefit from them in the south, personally.

I don't commute, so I'm not often out when the temperate us really low, and it rarely snows in the South, so I'll not bother.

I've not used winter tyres for years. I had a set on my car when I lived in Germany and could certainly see the value on snow then, they're like night and day, but even then I only really got the value for a handful of days.

I suspect they may wear better these days, back then, running them on dry roads (in the winter), they wore out very quickly compared to normal tyres.

M

[Coronet king]

I had a set of Michelin alpine for a BMW 330d. I used them for 2 seasons without hardly any wear they where fantastic & absolute bargain for anybody bidding on them tonight on the bay👍

[MB2]

I use them despite living down South - my logic is you don't wear the summer tyres out and have better grip and braking in all conditions for negligble extra cost as you only wear one or the other out and I change them myslef.

Yes they are a "luxury" but they work much better in the wet & cold as are a completley different size & profile (much more narrow, taller tyres). I am often driving to the airport at all hours and so I fitted them last week and will keep on until March I expect.

Summer tyres will work better in the summer but winter tyres work a LOT better in the winter. My relatives I advise to buy all weather tyres but if you drive a performance car why not have the best performing tyres ?

M&S tyres are safe in the summer (Porsche fit them to some of the Cayenne range as standard) but of course you are better running the appropriate tyre for the road conditions within reason.

[danmiddle2]

I had winter tyres on my X5 last year (Pirelli Scorpions) and it seemed to understeer a lot more when not particularly cold (say >5c). I’ll probably just keep the summer tyres (Pirelli p-zero) on this winter.


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In my experience it's the Pirelli Scorpions that are the problem, not winter tyres in general. Try a set of CrossClimates and I think you'll find a much better balance in the car and grip in a greater degree of conditions.

- - - Updated - - -

Your control is only as good as your contact to the road.

^^
This.

[UKMike]

I think the point is that yes, while winter tyres have a slight disadvantage in dry traction and wear above 7-8 degrees, they provide massive advantages in very wet weather, ice or snow or on dry roads when the temperature falls near to zero. It isn't a case of the advantages and disadvantages being remotely equal, with winter tyres fitted you may lose a metre braking from 40mph in the dry on that occasional dry warm winter day at 12deg for instance, but gain 5, 10 or even 15m once it lashes down with rain or the temperature falls to nearer zero. Horses for courses, pure winter tyres don't make sense April to October but much more so the other months.

The sensible solution for the UK is probably the all weather tyres like cross climate. Those that say 'I have driven miles and never needed them' sound to me a little like those who refused to wear seat belts or bemoan the drink drive limits. Just because it was done one way for a while doesn't mean it can't be be done better.

+1

A lot depends on where you live and when, what and where you drive, but the people who claim their "skill" makes up for any performance deficit of summer tyres in the snow and ice are seriously deluded.

A close friend of mine was a pursuit-trained armed-response driver in the Police until recently and when it snowed quite heavily a few years ago their fleet of 20 BMW 5 series cars was "confined to base" until they were fitted with winter tyres. Needless to say he uses winter tyres on his own cars.

Now if you mainly commute in town or on level ground I can see why you would scoff at winter tyres. However, some of us rely on transportation in hilly and rural areas where no amount of skill will get you up that hill in the snow or ice - and certainly will not stop you effectively on an icy morning. You can't avoid the physics of grip and traction.

The evidence is there for anyone to read and the benefit of winter tyres when the temperatures drop is indisputable. Whether you choose to ignore the evidence and choose not to buy them is another matter altogether.

[tiny73]

I lived in Germany for a few years where they’re a legal requirement. In cold conditions they offer more grip, I understand they have more natural rubber which means an equivalent level of grip in colder temperatures as summer tyres in warmer conditions. Colder temperatures on summer tyres make them harder and the level of grip is thus reduced.

Anecdotally I drove my 2WD 911 to and from Hannover airport in driving snow with winter tyres on and the car didn’t miss a beat driving over “mountain” (think Peak District rather than Alps) roads, hairpins etc.

I now have winter tyres for my both my 2WD 911 and 4WD A5 running O through O (October through Oester) and summer tyres thereafter. The initial cost is offset by running each set for only 6 months of the year.

[Kingstepper]

A close friend of mine was a pursuit-trained armed-response driver in the Police until recently and when it snowed quite heavily a few years ago their fleet of 20 BMW 5 series cars was "confined to base" until they were fitted with winter tyres. Needless to say he uses winter tyres on his own cars.

That's not the same as us is it?

In inclement conditions we can drive more cautiously - they will still be in a hurry.

[jimyu]

I used my winter tyres on my M3 this summer with no problems. I wouldn’t do a track day on them but were surprisingly fine for spirited driving

[zanderpants]

Bought a set for 911 I had a couple of years ago and we had the mildest winter we have had for years................ Never got tested and just ended up being an unnecessary expense. Just ended up selling the car with 2 sets of tyres. With how cold it is getting at the moment I am considering a set fr my current car.

[Steve27752]

Err, no.

[hilly10]

If it’s to bad I just stay home. As said the last two years I think we only had about 3 night frosts in each winter.

[danmiddle2]

If it’s to bad I just stay home. As said the last two years I think we only had about 3 night frosts in each winter.

This winter is allegedly going to be a cold one though....

[snowman]

Yeah, like every other year has been going to be :)

M

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[danmiddle2]

Yeah, like every other year has been going to be :)

M

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I agree, but it's amusing me as your username is "snowman" - surely you thrive in winter conditions ;-)

[snowman]

I agree, but it's amusing me as your username is "snowman" - surely you thrive in winter conditions ;-)

I like skiing and snow tyres are great then.

No quibble there! :)

Must be 5 years since we had enough snow to notice in Hampshire. Wasn't even any on the roads in the German mountains in March

M

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[Bravo73]

I like skiing and snow tyres are great then.

Like I’ve said already, you seem to be confusing snow tyres with winter tyres. They aren’t the same thing.

[snowman]

Like I’ve said already, you seem to be confusing snow tyres with winter tyres. They aren’t the same thing.

How so? I'm not talking about studded tyres

M

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[Padders]

How so? I'm not talking about studded tyres

M

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Because as has been repeated ad nauseum above Winter tyres have been proven time and time again to show significant improvements in handling and braking distances over Summer tyres in any conditions below 7degrees and in heavy standing water at any temperature at all, funnily enough conditions which predominate during a British winter. Yes they are also much, much better in snow but that is just an added bonus.

[robcat]

These discussions seem to go round and round.

I guess the issue is that we don’t really have much snow in the UK, nor that many days constantly below 7c.

In my experience winter tyres are much better in the wet though (especially standing water) - and if there one thing we do get in the Uk, it’s a lot of rain. For that reason alone, I change to winter tyres, and if there’s any snow, it reassuring to be able to deal with it. (And they really are great in the snow - night and-day).

I’m sure if the temperature gets up to a balmy 10/15 degrees, the performance doesn’t deteriorate dramatically - and it’s still likely to be raining. (I do live in the North-West though).

[-Ally-]

Unless I can find a reasonably priced set of wheels and tyres for my m140 I’ll simply be staying at home on days where summer tyres risk leaving me stuck somewhere or doing damage to my car.

[snowman]

Because as has been repeated as nauseum above Winter tyres have been proven time and time again to show significant improvements in handling and braking distances over Summer tyres in any conditions below 7degrees and in heavy standing water at any temperature at all, funnily enough conditions which predominate during a British winter. Yes they are much, much better in snow but that is just an added bonus.

Well, no confusion then.

I've just got up and it's 10C, so no need for winter tyres even if I had to drive somewhere.

If people want to fit winter tyres that's fine, but it seems an unnecessary expense for me (the argument that you use your tyres less doesn't work so well if you've a lease car for two years)

M

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[PipPip]

We fit winters to our XC60. We do drive it to the Alps a couple of times per winter so we have to have them on for that. Also they are just safer to use when it is very cold and wet. We don’t bother on the second car.

[Padders]

Well, no confusion then.

I've just got up and it's 10C, so no need for winter tyres even if I had to drive somewhere.

If people want to fit winter tyres that's fine, but it seems an unnecessary expense for me (the argument that you use your tyres less doesn't work so well if you've a lease car for two years)

M

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Clearly it never rains in Hampshire and stays a balmy 10degrees + all winter, global warming must be worse than I thought. Lease cars can be got on cross climates with a bit of effort, no need to change those. Like you say, no one is forced to do anything but to refute the positives by quoting the temperature of one day in November is a bit blinkered lol. That said, maybe the positives are more obvious for those of us stuck in the frozen wastes north of St Albans.

[Reeny]

It won't be cost effective for short term gain.

However, I am self employed, so it is very worthwhile for me:
No show => no work => one-day lost pay (on none urgent jobs)

And it could get a lot worse for urgent / time critical work,
No show => no work => lost customer => no pay, no repeat work, and a loss of business reputation => no business.

It's not rocket science when the last tyres for the mini were only £34 each + £6 fitting, and 4x steel rims were £60 second hand = £220
The last 2x tyres for the motorhome were £42 each, and only £55 before that + £10 fitting, and they stay on all year round = £214

I am sure there are many others on here who would be sacked if they regularly failed to arrive on time for work, in areas of the country where bad weather is a foreseeable risk.
In the 1980's, a lot of school teachers had Fiat Panda 4x4's to get to work in the rural areas of Cumbria, Yorkshire, Northumberland.
Although teachers & school workers these days appear to be exempt from working in bad weather.

[oldoakknives]

I think you just answered your second question with the last sentence. Get winter or all seasons tyres and whether 2 or 4wd winter driving becomes both more practical and much safer. Not bothering because others don't bother isn't a good reason IMO, you can pass them when they end up in the ditch or tree.

My point in the last sentence was no tyres grip on ice. Maybe could have put it better, but some are given a false sense of capability by winter tyres.

[Reeny]

My point in the last sentence was no tyres grip on ice. Maybe could have put it better, but some are given a false sense of capability by winter tyres.

MrsR is asking for the winter tyres to swapped over ASAP for December.
She reminds me of last year when she came around a corner to see two cars (one was a BMW 4x4) stuck in the ditch,
She braked on black ice, slid a few feet off the road but managed to stop, reversed out, and drove away.

The winter tyres skidded, and nearly crashed the car - but didn't.
The softer rubber, narrow profile, and the aggressive tread found just enough grip on the ice to keep everything safe, even if it was a bit scary.

[solwisesteve]

My point in the last sentence was no tyres grip on ice. Maybe could have put it better, but some are given a false sense of capability by winter tyres.

btdt... SIII Land Rover in 4wd with M&S tyres... ice on the road at a corner. Result straight into the ditch and then a 2 mile walk home and a grands worth of damage (broken engine mounts, knackered radiator, new wing, etc....). Been fine going up the snow covered rise leading up to the corner - maybe I was feeling a bit too cocky ;-)

[snowman]

Clearly it never rains in Hampshire and stays a balmy 10degrees + all winter, global warming must be worse than I thought. Lease cars can be got on cross climates with a bit of effort, no need to change those. Like you say, no one is forced to do anything but to refute the positives by quoting the temperature of one day in November is a bit blinkered lol. That said, maybe the positives are more obvious for those of us stuck in the frozen wastes north of St Albans.

I'm not refuting anything (As I say, this smacks a bit of a holy war - We got by without winter tyres for how many decades?), I can see the benefit, but the cost-benefit analysis makes no sense for me.

There's plenty of evidence that winter tyres work well in the wet and below 7C as well as on snow, but those circumstances are rare enough around here, even in the winter, to make their purchase a marginal call (I'm sure, not even the advocates are suggesting that the advantages are anything other than a sliding scale, both ways - or is it just the benefits of non-winter tyres that are easy to discount?). If winter tyres are advantageous in the wet, why don't people leave them on all year? It can rain any time in the UK. Because, obviously, people (and the manufacturers themselves) decide that the balance swings against them at a certain point.

Of course, if they ever decide to make it a legal requirement, I would abide by it and hope everyone else did, but until then, it's a choice made upon your own personal circumstances and needs.

As for the climate in Hampshire - There are lows, but the averages are all above 7C... - https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/public/...mate/gcp46pp1c - Hertfordshire is a tad lower - https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/public/...mate/gcpy6znsw

Again, there are people for who they make little sense and people for who they make lots, not based on belief, but on experience and needs. If I was commuting at 6:30 - 7:30 in the morning, I may have a different view.

M

[jamesianbriggs]

We live in the sticks and are recent converts. They make a noticeable difference when the roads get crappy.

If you have an S-Max and want to feel the difference at a bargain price then head to SC now!


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[danmiddle2]

I've just been told by a colleague that you're supposed to notify your insurer when you switch to winter tyres as it constitutes a modification. That can't be right, surely?