Reply With QuoteMaybe go All Season, the Goodyears get especially good reviews.Originally Posted by stuie-t
I want to change the cheap tyres that came with my X5 and have been thinking about putting winters on and using them all year round. The tyres are huge (315/35/R20 on the rears) so I figure the summer tyres would be particularly useless in adverse weather and have way more grip than I would ever need in the summer.
Maybe go All Season, the Goodyears get especially good reviews.
These were fitted this week in like for like sizes - 185/55 R15. My initial thoughts (and bearing in mind that I don't drive the car that often) are that there is a slight softening of both steering response and ride. The Fiat 500 has a dreadful ride and anything that takes the edge off is good. I'll wait until conditions deteriorate and report back further.
I won't be getting stuck this winter...
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Peterborough is guaranteed to have zero snowfall now the tyres are fitted.
It works every time.
Always even a FWD car will out pull a Range Rover if its only fitted with summer tyres
Here is mine fitted with its 18" winter rims
Fitted winters to my m3 last week - makes all the difference. I use vredstein wintac extreme
Mastering the weather should do it ;-)
Fair bit of lead btw.
Was nice if chilly yesterday and damp roads only not wet. Great for the car club run.
Since we are still sorting out the springs, and change one thing at the time only, had the summer Michelins on the 340. We had sooooo much fun drifting the thing.
We had taken super-pokemon Karel (Frenchie) with us and him getting a bit thrown about on the rear seat was the limiting factor. On winter rubber the car slides way smoother and easier to control.
You will have fun mastering the winter!
Last edited by Huertecilla; 11th December 2016 at 12:59.
Perfect... I will make the money back by not having the heating on.
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Attention everyone - news flash!
Those who cannot afford a second set of tyres for their car shall no longer be permitted to drive in less than perfect conditions as you are "responsible for ....bringing the country coming to a standstill"
Seriously buddy, get over yourself. For the vast majority of car owners in this country buying a second set of tyres would never enter into their consideration as an expenditure, it's a purchase made by those who have nowt better to spend their money on.
I'll remember that when there is an inch of snow on the ground and I'm stuck behind somebody spinning the back of his 3-series around, but sadly not going anywhere.
Having an AWD Subaru on winter tyres is excellent. It would be even better if it wasn't for the muppets on summer tyres who claim they don't need traction.
Seriously buddy, if you don't have the common sense to buy a car you can afford tires for, you don't have enough common sense to drive a car in the first place.
Since you seem to lack basic understanding of cars I will give crucial enlightenment for free: The contact with the road is the begin and end all of driving. The quality of that contact is set by the tires.
That's a bit OTT and insulting. I've never had winter tyres in my driving life and don't intend to. I never had them as a Police driver and currently don't know anyone that does. My driving skills have held me in good stead thank you.
Just asked an ex colleague from the Met and he's never used them either in his job or private driving.
They should be compulsory like in other European countries, the roads would be safer in winter no doubt.
It's only people that have never had them that say they are a waste of money etc. It's night and day difference
There you are again playing the poverty card on a watch forum. It is becoming a bit of a caricature. Quite a few here may struggle every now and then. I am one of those yet I had winter tyres before I bought a Rolex.
As has been said many times already winter tyres don't work out to be more expensive as when you use your winter tyres you save your summer ones and vice versa. But if you can't be convinced just buy all seasons.
As to the stand still bit, if you care to remove the chip you have on your shoulder you will notice that the country relies on the gritting to be kept on the move. Economically speaking it is a nonsense, thousands of man hours every cold night (I just passed 2 gritters on the M20 near exit 10), only lasts a few hours, only the main roads... whereas winter tyres do not require gritting except where black ice is a risk, which is rare in this country, and allow you to go wherever you need to go without delays, except of course those created by people who do not understand how essential grip is to driving.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
You're been unfair. You can't go wasting money on winter tyres when there are designer clothing emporia, and purveyors of mobile phones to keep in profit. Where are your priorities?
I suppose I've got the funds to buy winter tires if I felt I needed them but I've never ever felt my tyres were letting me down and, for me, that's the crux of it therefore I've never bought them. I adjust my driving accordingly to the conditions and have never experienced any real issues. If I was slip sliding all over the road or couldn't get off my drive then I'd definitely invest in a set.
OMG playing the perceived competence card. Just shows lack of it.
You can decide not to fit them for any number of reasons* but there is no discussing the properties and claiming not needing them because of your driving skills is arrogance fed by ignorance.
* one reason is driving at reduced speeds REALLY matching the tires and circumstances. Unfortunately there is a tension between that and perceived superior driving skills.
10-year average
Typical number of days lost work due to roads being blocked by Numpty drivers unable to get out of Morpeth onto the A1 slip road= £600 worth.
Typical number of days lost work (or late arrival) if we didn't have snow tyres = £1,200 worth.
Difference = £600 (not including accident repair bills)
10-year average
3-pairs of tyres at £28 to £36 each plus £10 fitting = £230 to £280
Not getting the sack because everyone doesn't have a cushy job where we get paid for staying at home in bad weather = priceless
PS - I am staying in tomorrow for a front tyre for the motorbike to be delivered.
Maybe I should have a rethink now and run it through the winter on the 2mm tread that is left until it wears down to the 1mm minimum, or until I fall off - whichever comes first.
Its compulsory to have winter tyres here.
WRT are 2 better than 0?
I was always told new tyres must go on the rear not the front even on a FWD car, my brother since he knows everything got 2 new tyres, the garage refused to put them on the rear so he he came home and promptly jacked the car up and swapped the new tyres to the front and went off.
Around 30 mins later he walked in and asked if we had some rope and a few minutes to help him out, about an hour and a 4WD tractor and a heavy chain later we managed to pull his car out of a field 3 miles away and back onto the road.
Next day after a few small repairs the tyres were back on the rear.
Moral of the story is that your best tyres aways go on the rear, if you best tyres are on the front there is a very high possibility of when braking the worn rears will slide when the fronts grip and then the rear will try to overtake the front which is not ideal at all.
So WRT to winter tyres, if you only bought 2 they would have to go on the rear for stability under braking, which would be useless for traction if you had a FWD car, and useless for steering, therefore you need to get 4.
Last edited by eldrich; 12th December 2016 at 09:26.
The best tyres on rear argument is to prevent sharp oversteer, which is very hard to control (as opposed to understeer, which is easier). So the best tyres go on the rear to provide better grip under cornering/braking to prevent that. However in the case of Winter tyres - the main point is traction. So whilst I agree with the "best on rear" premise, I'm not sure it applies equally to Winter tyres? Hopefully someone will be able to provide a fuller explanation.
I totally agree with the "you need to get 4" argument in this case.
Last edited by vagabond; 12th December 2016 at 09:33.
I think part of the reason why this is a divisive issue, some get it and some scratch their heads, is that the safety advantages of cold adapted tyres are much more obvious with RWD. Those with FWD may well think they just aren't worth it whereas those with a stationary 3 series will be easily persuaded. In fact they are just as vital for both but the advantages are much more obvious when you can't get off your drive without them. I personally think either Winters or All Seasons should be compulsory between November and March like elsewhere. It would save lives and aid the economy.
I do take the slightly sanctimonious point made by some that a skilled driver on summer tyres progressing at an appropriate rate is safe, but why should the rest of us who are better prepared have to slow down to your safe rate (or occasionally stop dead) when our safe rate is way higher?
Last edited by Padders; 12th December 2016 at 09:40.
Well having just driven the 60 miles to work down the A1(M) in freezing fog this morning I can absolutely recommend winter tyres.
Hitting standing water at 60 or 70 mph on summer tyres was a butt-clenching moment... doing so with huge tread gaps didn't ever register as a wobble on the steering wheel. Braking is also massively improved. They are also quieter. Can't comment on the ride quality as the XC90 doesn't notice potholes anyway :)
If you HAVE to drive in winter (some don't) then it could be the best £300 you've ever spent.
I was sceptical at how much difference it would make. I am converted.
Daniel.
I have just come back from Norway where they are of course all fitted with winter tyres and some also have studs (which are deemed excessive and old fashioned for most uses by the locals)
The weather was much the same as here although there was snow on the verges the roads themselves were clear. What wasn't clear were the car parks which had layers of frozen water on them and were trecherous under foot (lethal) - this was completely unnoticeable until the we got out of the car.
I spoke with the driver who said you basically drive like normal on the winter tyres on anything other than sheets of ice - I know they seem an unnecessary luxury to many and indeed they probably are not essential in the UK - I have probably driven on snow twice on my winter tyres, however the benefits of driving in most conditions all winter "as normal" is I think missed by those who have not tried them.
As I wrote; the contact patch with the road is the begin and end all of all driving.
Those 300 quid depend completely on the car you drive; basically reflects the price segment of the car.
In general cheaper cars have skinnier rubber and more expensive cars wider ones. Ditto rim diameter.
Spend a bit less on the car and you have money for tires which are cheaper as a bonus.
As such, the moans about the cost are imo ... beep...
Hi,
I live in the Highlands and started to use winter tyres a good while ago. I started with 2 on the front, then went to having all 4 wheels wheels fitted with winter tyres.
The difference when using non-winter tyres is unquestionable when there is snow on the road,all in my own experience of course.
cheers,
Also depends on the car you have. If I drove a low power fwd car with skinny tyres I doubt I'd bother - but having 2 rwd cars with 330bhp plus I have them fitted (only on one car)
saying that, the bad thing with winters is when the weather fluctuates. Last week was about 14 degrees warmer than the week before and I did find myself sideways one one corner (I may have been a little throttle heavy!) where it was too warm for the winter compound to work properly.
Always use them. So worth while. What price do you put on your life and families safety. Plus just make winter driving more enjoyable and reassuring. It's a non brainier, I don't really get why 'Summer tyres' are a thing in the UK, our weather is so uncertain we'd all be better off on 'all season' tyres.
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+ 1 there. My wife has real winter tyres (Michelin Alpin) on her car but she has to drive 55 kms to work through hill country where it really gets wintry in winter (and she works at Michelin's head office, although as a temp so she has no right to free 'test' tyres like the fulltime employees). The only real difference is grip on ice - the true winter tyres have more small grooves for sideways grip on black ice but on snow, sleet, just cold weather or in rain just above freezing the Cross Climates are supposedly even better than the 'pure' winter tyres, at least that's what Michelin themselves say.
Whatever winter or '4 season' rubber you get, ensure that it carries the '4PMS' or '4 Peak Mountain Snowflake' indication, which is the official winter rating. You need that in some countries (Germany for instance). Just 'M+S' is not enough these days.
Never ever put just two winter tyres on the front. If you have to break or do some quick maneuver, the rear will break out and you'll find yourself in the ditch. The golden 'Michelin Rule' is to always put the tyres with the best grip on the rear, so when breaking the rear end of the car will keep the car going straight. If you only have two winter tyres on the rear and summer tyres on a front-wheel drive, you may simply not be able to get going when conditions are really slippery, so you don't end up killing yourself; the other way around, you have traction so you can drive, but the first real bend you'll go off the road as your rear end gets a life of its own.
I guess you got an inkling of that as you went to all 4... ;-)
On winter tyres the difference is more extreme, as winter tyres on snow brake twice as well as summer tyres (that is, your car stops in half the distance with winter tyres on snow; on ice the difference is ever greater). It's a matter of rubber compound. So while your front wheels then brake normal, the rear wheels will just do nothing - either they slide, or with ABS they won't brake. Thus there will not just be some oversteer, but an awful lot.
It's all about braking. The extra traction is a bonus.
How many days a year do we have conditions to warrant winter tyres in the U.K.?
Used to sell them many years ago but could only see the point for people in rural areas really.
If you have winter tyres fitted and sit behind the majority who don’t what’s the point?
Oh and every year we see some 4x4 drivers who lose it because they think they can grip on ice.
Simply put: on a sunny winter day, on a dry road, 95% of UK drivers will drive exactly as if it was summer. Except their summer tyres will take a few extra metres to stop the car, where winter tyres won’t.
The difference is even greater if the road is wet. People in this country dismiss them because they are also called ‘snow’ tyres and indeed the average snowfall we have do not seem to warrant a specific set.
On a side note, a not insignificant amount of public money could be saved if we didn’t rely on massive salt spreading across the country to get to work or just from A to B by adapting our vehicles to the conditions rather than expecting The authorities to adapt the road network to something we can cope with.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
I think you just answered your second question with the last sentence. Get winter or all seasons tyres and whether 2 or 4wd winter driving becomes both more practical and much safer. Not bothering because others don't bother isn't a good reason IMO, you can pass them when they end up in the ditch or tree.
Last edited by Padders; 26th November 2017 at 10:06.
I've been having the debate somewhere else but spotted this.
First lets be clear. The official advice about having best grip on the rear applies only in a condition where all wheels still have some traction for the reasons you have stated. While your point about not even being able to get going with part worn tyres on the front is both true and amusing that where it ends.
The official advice I've read also always has the caveat, do what your car handbook tells you.
Ask yourself this, even in the modern age of ABS and ESP, what situation would you rather face on ice, a loss of front grip and all steering control or having to possibly manage some oversteer? The reason I ask is simple, generally you discover you are on black ice or aquaplaning when the steering becomes light in your hands, never mind about braking. I would suggest the last thing you want to do in this circumstance is brake what you absolutely do want to be able to do is control your direction.
To get back on topic, I am certainly going to fit some 4 season tyres the next time I need to change tyres on my car. I'll be doing all 4 wheels at the same time needless to say.
This is a good example for those interested..
I have aesthete got BMW, it’s not been cold enough here to use them though.
I live in very rural locations, so for many years I maintained 2x sets of wheels on each car and switched between summer and winter tyres as required. The problem with this is that sometimes the weather arrives unexpectedly, and you find yourself on the wrong set. Also, winter tyres don't last well in the wrong conditions.
So I made the switch to 'marked' all season tyres.
The problem with a lot of all season tyres I have tried is that they aren't that great in the summer if you are a driver who likes to "push on". The Michelin CrossClimates are different, as they are the only all season tyre which started life as a summer tyre. Most all seasons tyres are winter tyres that have been adapted to work OK the rest of the time.
The CrossClimates on the Saab are phenomenal tyres. If anything, a little too confidence inspiring.
The BF Goodrich all season tyres of SWMBO's CRV are pretty good - like driving a mountain goat.
The Pirelli Scorpion Verde all seasons on the XC90 are passable in all conditions. Neither exceptional in cold or warm conditions but "good enough" all the time.
I will be defaulting to CrossClimates in the future, but the tyre sizes aren't available for some of my cars.
I also have a set of these in the boot of each car.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01NBE7522
I used to buy snow chains or socks, but almost never needed them. You also need them in the right size for your wheel / tyre combo, and given the pace at which I change cars, I never seemed to have a set in the right size.
I haven't used them in anger yet, but they might help in a pinch.
There is also no substitute for understanding how to drive in low grip circumstances and taking it easy. I think people these days rely on the tech in the car keeping them on the road a bit much.
Last edited by danmiddle2; 26th November 2017 at 13:34.
I use them and will be finally putting them on in the next few days now the temps have dropped. They’re nokian hakkapeliitta and it’s not just ice etc where I’ve noticed a difference but all weather driving where they just feel ‘better’
I've bought Michelin Cross Climates this year because I needed new tyres. Wouldn't otherwise bother with 2 sets of wheels/tyres.
+1
There are plenty of days between October and March when the ambient temperatures are below 7 degs.
Don’t confuse winter tyres with snow tyres. They aren’t necessarily the same thing (although all snow tyres will obviously also be winter tyres).
Temperature of 6 degs doesn't necessarily warrant winter tyres. They might be marginally better, that's all.
A line has to be drawn somewhere and the tyre manufacturers have chosen 7 degs.
Above that line, you are better off on summer tyres; below it, you will be better off on winters. But, obviously, that line isn’t an absolute and there will obviously be a crossover.
However, there is a common misconception that winter tyres should only be used in icing or snowy conditions. This isn’t the case.
I have two sets of wheels and tyres for the Subaru. On winter tyres the car is phenomenal in the snow.
I’d recommend buying a second hand set of wheels (mine are from an Impreza and cost me £100), use Paisley Freight to transport them. Then ring up local ‘pre-worn’ tyre places and track down winter tyres. I got some Mitchelin Alpins for £40 a tyre, and they have lasted 3 winters. I need some new ones this year.
Your safety will be massively improved for perhaps less than £300. No brainer surely?
- - - Updated - - -
Correct.
I agree with all of this but I'd argue that the number of days when they offer significant advantage (esp. in South England) is relatively small and doesn't warrant a special purchase for most people. Better to drive more carefully and not 'push on'.
Living in the south of England I'm not going to bother.
I had a RWD car on summer tyres and one evening we had a freak snow storm. I got home fine, passing a stopped Merc M thing on the sloping sliproad off the motorway - no idea why he was stopped!
Would I have been better on winter tyres that day? Yes.
But, what about all those winter days when it's 7 or above? I'd be endangering me and those around me if I had winter tyres on!
So, I agree that, on balance, they're not required in southern England.
M
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That is incorrect. The advantage for summer tyres doesn’t exist, and certainly not below 11°C on the dry, much hotter on the wet. The difference is that winter tyres will wear faster in hotter weather.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
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