Winter tyres... do you bother ?

[Kingstepper]

An unnecessary expense for me (in SE England) and the weather has never stopped me getting about or even feeling unsafe driving so can't justify the cost.

[Saint-Just]

An unnecessary expense for me (in SE England) and the weather has never stopped me getting about or even feeling unsafe driving so can't justify the cost.

Where were you in winter 2009/2010?
Having said that it is an expense upfront, even if over 2 to 3 years the cost is identical since you save on summer tires wear. So I understand your approach.

But at the slightest snow flurry it is people like you who will be responsible for headlines about the country coming to a standstill. I live in a small village and the road across is at a small angle. Every year for the last 15 but one we have had to help out cars not being able to climb that incline. Including defenders.

[Kingstepper]

Where were you in winter 2009/2010?
Having said that it is an expense upfront, even if over 2 to 3 years the cost is identical since you save on summer tires wear. So I understand your approach.

But at the slightest snow flurry it is people like you who will be responsible for headlines about the country coming to a standstill. I live in a small village and the road across is at a small angle. Every year for the last 15 but one we have had to help out cars not being able to climb that incline. Including defenders.

I don't remember the roads being impassable in that winter and have never held up traffic due to inability to make progress. Would probably think differently with rwd though!

The point about saving on summer tyres wear is only valid if relatively high mileages are covered and the car is kept for many years. One pair of tyres on my current car has done 50,000 miles and 6 years old. Will probably replace this winter due to perishing rather than wear so having not used them during winter wouldn't have helped.

[bloater]

I commute by train but the wife drives and isn't in a job where you can really call in saying the snows too bad.
I've talked to her several times about winter tyres but complains about the hassle and cost or getting a 4x4 but she's not keen for various reasons.
The only part of her commute that isn't gritted as a priority is the few hundred yards from our house to the main road, so I can understand her reluctance if it was down to me solely I'd for them.

[Huertecilla]

I commute by train but the wife drives and isn't in a job where you can really call in saying the snows too bad.
I've talked to her several times about winter tyres but complains about the hassle and cost or getting a 4x4 but she's not keen for various reasons.
The only part of her commute that isn't gritted as a priority is the few hundred yards from our house to the main road, so I can understand her reluctance if it was down to me solely I'd for them.

Don't go awd and certainly not to a 4x4 for the sake of a few hundred yards!
Proper winter rubber will do the job. You will need these on awd/4x4 too.
Economy wise they make sense immediately when you don't fit summer rubber.

[Saint-Just]

I don't remember the roads being impassable in that winter and have never held up traffic due to inability to make progress. Would probably think differently with rwd though!

The point about saving on summer tyres wear is only valid if relatively high mileages are covered and the car is kept for many years. One pair of tyres on my current car has done 50,000 miles and 6 years old. Will probably replace this winter due to perishing rather than wear so having not used them during winter wouldn't have helped.

If you're going to change your tires by all mean consider all seasons. remember it is also about stopping distances...

[Kingstepper]

If you're going to change your tires by all mean consider all seasons. remember it is also about stopping distances...

Yes, thinking of Michelin CrossClimate which seems decent compromise.

[Saint-Just]

They are quite good ( that is what I fitted on Mrs SJ's Golf as timing was similar ( changed in December) and she only drives 12 miles a day with it, all family journeys are in the E class

[neebsta]

I have a set of alloys with winter tyres on and a set with summer tyres on, just swap them over at appropriate times of the year. Winter tyres improve driving in the wet and not just snow and ice. They make a massive difference and they should be made compulsory IMHO.

I also use them also for our annual trip to the Alps, and they are a legal requirement for most countries we drive through on route.

[Kingstepper]

They are quite good ( that is what I fitted on Mrs SJ's Golf as timing was similar ( changed in December) and she only drives 12 miles a day with it, all family journeys are in the E class

Thanks for recommendation.

[PipPip]

Swapping over the wheels/tyres on my XC60 to the winter set today. Probably don't "need" them for UK but I always drive to the French Alps once or twice for skiing in Jan/Feb. A storm hit 2 years ago when we were driving home and I really did need the winter tyres and 4wd. The main roads around Lyon were shutting down and we took a very treacherous alternative route that only those with winter tyres were able to use. Lots of stranded cars by the roadside on the hills while we effortlessly cruised past.

Edit - I don't bother with them for our second car, a Mini, which rarely leaves Hampshire.

[Tooks]

I've recently changed my car, and don't currently have a set of winters to fit, but I'll be rectifying that shortly.

I live in rural Lincolnshire, so hardly the alps, but I still see the benefit in winters mainly as stated above for the stopping distance thing.

A couple of winters ago, we had a bit of snow along with sub zero temps the following days, and so the back roads to our village were covered in thin frozen snow and ice for a while.

Eager to justify my winter tyre purchase I went to the nearest hill where I had struggled previously to get going again after being forced to stop by a vehicle in front. I managed to get going again easily, so all good. I also tried some braking and directional change stuff and I was impressed, felt almost normal.

I returned home and did the same route in my wife's company car that didn't have winter tyres, but was a similar size and weight and also FWD.

I stopped on the same hill and really struggled to get going again. Eventually I did a three point turn and went back down and tried again. Maintaining a steady speed I did manage to get up it, but it didn't feel great.

Repeating the braking test was an eye opener, the car sailed way past where mine had stopped, I'd say easily four or five times the distance. That alone convinced me it was worthwhile even if it ever only helps you out once.

I'm sure somebody else has already said this though, if other drivers don't have them on, they'll get stuck and generally you will to. Also, if my braking is great, that's no help if the car behind isn't running winters...

But for general safety and self sufficiency reasons, I'm a fan of winter tyres. I ran a set of cross climates for about 25k miles, I was quite impressed with them and are what I would fit if I only had one set of wheels.

[Tooks]

Swapping over the wheels/tyres on my XC60 to the winter set today. Probably don't "need" them for UK but I always drive to the French Alps once or twice for skiing in Jan/Feb. A storm hit 2 years ago when we were driving home and I really did need the winter tyres and 4wd. The main roads around Lyon were shutting down and we took a very treacherous alternative route that only those with winter tyres were able to use. Lots of stranded cars by the roadside on the hills while we effortlessly cruised past.

Edit - I don't bother with them for our second car, a Mini, which rarely leaves Hampshire.

I was in Caerphilly when they had their 'winter storm' in Feb 2015, it was carmageddon!

The snow had started falling quite suddenly onto frozen ground, and cars were struggling for grip within minutes. Getting to the outskirts of town, it was like some huge human mass migration had started as people trudged through the snow to continue their journeys. I was able to keep going in my humble hatchback running winters, and even gave a police officer a lift with some folding road closed signs he was trying to stick up at the top of a road in.

The worst of the snow was gone the next day, and cars were left where they'd got stuck which looked very odd as the snow was now gone from any hard surface.

It probably all could have been avoided if the council had gritted the roads though!

[amnesia]

They're quite chunky 😀





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[Martylaa]

But on a front wheel drive car do you really need to fit 4 or just 2 winter tyres on the front???

[Saint-Just]

But on a front wheel drive car do you really need to fit 4 or just 2 winter tyres on the front???

2 is much better than none, and if you're on a budget you can get away with it. But it can affect your braking distance as the rear will loose traction quicker, leaving all the braking to the front. If you can stretch do all 4.

[Huertecilla]

2 is much better than none, and if you're on a budget you can get away with it. But it can affect your braking distance as the rear will loose traction quicker, leaving all the braking to the front. If you can stretch do all 4.

Not so sure if it better than none. Breaking in straight line yes but it will also give more traction thus more speed whereas the whole road holding/cornering behavior of the car will change.

[Huertecilla]

They're quite chunky 

Very nice cut up of the chunks!!!

[Kirk280]

But on a front wheel drive car do you really need to fit 4 or just 2 winter tyres on the front???

Think of it this way - would you drive with two bald tyres on the back? On snow and ice that's effectively what you are doing.

(A few years ago I had all season tyres on the back of my rwd w124 E-class, and summer tyres on the front. When it snowed I had traction, but couldn't steer! I quickly parked the car up and walked home....)

[Richard.]

^^This ^^

You will alter the dynamics of the vehicle if you only put winter tyres on one axle. I think it's illegal in some countries.

[Reeny]

But on a front wheel drive car do you really need to fit 4 or just 2 winter tyres on the front???

I had the tail out (deliberately) on the motorhome a few years ago, going to work one morning.
I wanted to see how fast I could turn into a junction on an untreated road in an industrial estate - I found the answer.

The front snow tyres were brand new, the rears were the original Michelin "Camper-X" road type tyres.
It is amazing how slowly and predictable a 3-tonne vehicle can spin out.
I use winter tyres all year round because of the off-road capabilities when driving around camp site access roads.

If you live in the city you probably don't need them.
There are no cities in Northumberland.
Newcastle and Carlisle are in another County - in a land far far away.

Edit - The classic mini will also loose grip at the back with snow tyres up front, and road tyres on the rear.

[Huertecilla]

I use winter tyres all year round because of the off-road capabilities when driving around camp site access roads.

applies for rainy days in summer too.

[Padders]

2 is much better than none, and if you're on a budget you can get away with it. But it can affect your braking distance as the rear will loose traction quicker, leaving all the braking to the front. If you can stretch do all 4.

Really bad advice. Fit 4 or none. In your scenario above, yes the rears will break traction much more quickly than the fonts meaning that if you have any sideways moment, like in a corner, you will get nice snap oversteer and end up heading backwards off the road in a spin. Fun for the first second and then less if you can't catch it.

[Saint-Just]

Really bad advice. Fit 4 or none. In your scenario above, yes the rears will break traction much more quickly than the fonts meaning that if you have any sideways moment, like in a corner, you will get nice snap oversteer and end up heading backwards off the road in a spin. Fun for the first second and then less if you can't catch it.

None will get you stuck. Fine if you're at home without an emergency, not so fine if you're on your way when conditions deteriorate. Ergo 2 is better than none if you can't afford the 4 in one go. The second point I already made in my first post.
If you need to be mobile 2 winter tyres on a FWD work. It's not ideal, but it works. And if the way you drive gives you sideways moments may be you should adapt your driving to your car capabilities and the conditions a little better.
2 is a total no-go on a RWD or a 4x4, though.

[MB2]

I would have thought 2 "bald" tyres always better than 4 but agree neither situation is ideal - however I can see possibly the handling could be made worse by having 2 x winter rather than 4 summers but I expect would still be a safer drive than no winters.

Having said that is 13 degrees here today so I guess the debate is on hold for a week or so !

[Vanguard]

None will get you stuck. Fine if you're at home without an emergency, not so fine if you're on your way when conditions deteriorate. Ergo 2 is better than none if you can't afford the 4 in one go. The second point I already made in my first post.
If you need to be mobile 2 winter tyres on a FWD work. It's not ideal, but it works. And if the way you drive gives you sideways moments may be you should adapt your driving to your car capabilities and the conditions a little better.
2 is a total no-go on a RWD or a 4x4, though.

No you are wrong, this is really bad dangerous advice, you either fit all winter tyres or none at all. You will make the handling of the car completely unpredictable and dangerous. Please anyone reading this do not fit just two winter tyres either front or back.

Better to get stuck and have to abandon the car than end up in an accident and risk killing someone.

[Huertecilla]

Better to get stuck and have to abandon the car than end up in an accident and risk killing someone.

Quite.

P.e. if I HAD to mount 2 on an RWD, I would fit those at the front. That would give steering and ho; WAY more important than go.

[Padders]

None will get you stuck. Fine if you're at home without an emergency, not so fine if you're on your way when conditions deteriorate. Ergo 2 is better than none if you can't afford the 4 in one go. The second point I already made in my first post.
If you need to be mobile 2 winter tyres on a FWD work. It's not ideal, but it works. And if the way you drive gives you sideways moments may be you should adapt your driving to your car capabilities and the conditions a little better.
2 is a total no-go on a RWD or a 4x4, though.

I take your point but to deliberately de-stabilise the rear of the car by vastly increasing the grip at the front is really very dangerous and will lead to the most uncontrollable type of skid. If you can get going on summers (and with FWD you probably can up to a point) the similar level of grip front to rear will be safer as you will likely experience understeer and extended braking rather than spinning like a top, which should encourage you to slow the heck down to a speed and gap suitable for the conditions, even if this is 5mph. Do it your way and you may find yourself sideways into a tree at more like 30mph unless you have the self control to drive as if you had 4 summer tyres on, which with no feedback from the front winter tyres, you likely wont.

Of course the real answer to this is to fit either winter or all-season tyres to all the wheels, which is where we came in...

[Saint-Just]

I take your point but to deliberately de-stabilise the rear of the car by vastly increasing the grip at the front is really very dangerous and will lead to the most uncontrollable type of skid. If you can get going on summers (and with FWD you probably can up to a point) the similar level of grip front to rear will be safer as you will likely experience understeer and extended braking rather than spinning like a top, which should encourage you to slow the heck down to a speed and gap suitable for the conditions, even if this is 5mph. Do it your way and you may find yourself sideways into a tree at more like 30mph.

Of course the real answer to this is to fit either winter or all-season tyres to all the wheels, which is where we came in...

As I said it is far from ideal and you must keep in mind that your car doesn't behave the way you're used to. I had to do it one year on a Peugeot 309 and I genuinely did not have any ill effect, despite significant snow (significant for Kent, mind you, but still.)
Would I do it again? not if I can afford the 4, definitely. But if not? without hesitation. And whilst I am aware of what snap oversteer is, I never came anywhere near to experiencing it on 2 winter tyres, and I am no rallye driver with super human control of car behaviour. Just adapt your speed and if 5 mph is the safe speed with the level of grip you have at the rear, drive at 5 mph on that portion and the front will get you through.

[Padders]

Just adapt your speed and if 5 mph is the safe speed with the level of grip you have at the rear, drive at 5 mph on that portion and the front will get you through.

Yep fully agree, in fact added something similar as an edit while you were typing. Easier said than done sometimes though.

[DandyHighwayMan]

I have been running Goodyear Ultragrips cold weather tyres on my TT for the past 12 months. I didn't bother taking them off after winter and they have performed more than adequately for normal driving. When the weather is warm they do feel different to a normal summer tyre and only once did I push them past their limits on a roundabout when it was a 30 degree centrigrade day in mid summer.

In cold weather though, combined with the quattro system they do feel excellent. We had some snow last winter and they performed admirably. I work shifts and have early starts at 5am so in the recent cold snap where we had minus 5 here they felt excellent.

I will be swapping them over come the spring as I'll be getting some new wheels for the car so they'll stay on the rims they're on now and I'll put them back on next winter as well.

I feel that the benefits of a cold weather tyre in winter justify the loss in performance over a summer tyre during the warmer weather.

[Vampire]

^^^ That's useful to know. I've ordered x4 Goodyear Ultragrips for my estate car which are being fitted on Saturday, I was planning to leave them on year-round as well (it's not a sports car and I'm just an A-B commuter driver).

I've used winter tyres for a few years and they're great. The biggest problem is not everyone else does, and it annoys me when I've spent the money and still get stuck in traffic jams caused by someone else who has gotten stuck.

[vagabond]

Private cars/vehicles (where the user/driver has a choice) are obviously not the only ones on the road; do the commercial fleets and vehicles swap to winter tyres?

I doubt it, certainly in the UK, though a few maybe running on "all-season" tyres.

[Foxy100]

Winter tyres only really work properly below seven degrees centigrade, which doesn't happen that often in the UK. On a day like today in the UK when it's over 10 degrees they won't be doing much good and in the summer they're surely going to kill your handling.

[Saint-Just]

Winter tyres are about equivalent to summer tires from 7 to 11 Celsius. They are significantly better in the wet within those temperatures. I do not know where you live in the UK but in winter I seem to get a lot of days below 11, and quite a few of these are wet too.

[GOAT]

Living on the south coast, not really an issue but I have a hilux 4x4 with mud and snow tyres
i don't get stuck
ever

[Optimum]

Winter tyres only really work properly below seven degrees centigrade, which doesn't happen that often in the UK. On a day like today in the UK when it's over 10 degrees they won't be doing much good and in the summer they're surely going to kill your handling.

Last winter was very mild up until Xmas and I'd be surprised if we had any days under 7 degrees. However, that was the exception and oop North we have plenty of sub-7 degree days and almost nothing over 11 degrees. Yesterday and today are very much anomalies.

[Huertecilla]

in the summer they're surely going to kill your handling.

They don't over her where the ambient summer afternoon tempe easily gets above 40 degrees centigrade.
Yes they will start to smear considerably earlier at those temps but still at way illegal cornering speeds. Imo that is inherently safer.

[bootneck]

Had winter tyres fitted for the past 5/6 years on the Mrs's car wouldn't be without them after having them I bought a set of steel wheels and just swap the wheels over for winter, this will be my first winter not having a 4x4 so I've gone for all seasons on my work car now which seemed to work well in the small amount of snow we had the other week.
After using winter tyres I'd never go back, before we had them I was very sceptical but having a fast rwd car at the time convinced me that they had to be worth a try I'm so glad I did.

[RobDad]

Interesting thread. Lived for years in London, never even knew winter tyres existed really (not widely advertised if you don't read car magazines I assume?) - anyhow, I drive a Volvo XC60 and have no idea what sort of tyres they are (the car is 6 months old so whatever the stock rubber is) - I'm a safety conscious chap when driving, never had an issue driving in snow and genuinely can't imagine buying a separate set of wheels and tyres, just for winter. Ok, I'm sure it's safer but you have to stop somewhere -i guess I could wear a full face helmet while driving the Volvo, but the expense and faff involved in winter tyres (unless facing properly snowy conditions regularly) seems crazy to me. I imagine the chances of getting rear-ended are higher in the uk too, as you come to a brisk halt and Wayne in his souped up Corsa slams into the back of your winter tyre equipped 4x4!

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[Saint-Just]

Interesting thread. Lived for years in London, never even knew winter tyres existed really (not widely advertised if you don't read car magazines I assume?) - anyhow, I drive a Volvo XC60 and have no idea what sort of tyres they are (the car is 6 months old so whatever the stock rubber is) - I'm a safety conscious chap when driving, never had an issue driving in snow and genuinely can't imagine buying a separate set of wheels and tyres, just for winter. Ok, I'm sure it's safer but you have to stop somewhere -i guess I could wear a full face helmet while driving the Volvo, but the expense and faff involved in winter tyres (unless facing properly snowy conditions regularly) seems crazy to me. I imagine the chances of getting rear-ended are higher in the uk too, as you come to a brisk halt and Wayne in his souped up Corsa slams into the back of your winter tyre equipped 4x4!

The difference being that if you rear end someone it's your fault, whereas if you're rear ended it's his.
But again, winter tires are not just for snow, they actually find their worth in coldish wet conditions. The faff is more in storing the other set and handing out a score to your garage to swap them and adjust the pressure.

[Mouse]

A question to those that have used winter/all season tyres.............are the sidewalls typically stiffer than for summer tyres? Is the ride quality better or worse?

[Craig]

Don't forget to check your vehicle handbook. I've been using winter tyres for years and have only just noticed that my Skoda Fabia's handbook recommends running tyre pressures 0.2 bar higher when winter tyres are fitted.

[Craig]

A question to those that have used winter/all season tyres.............are the sidewalls typically stiffer than for summer tyres? Is the ride quality better or worse?

I've never noticed any difference.

[Padders]

A question to those that have used winter/all season tyres.............are the sidewalls typically stiffer than for summer tyres? Is the ride quality better or worse?

If the sizes are the same, the ride will be roughly the same. I don't think there is much difference in stiffness on a like for like basis though often people use narrower, taller rubber for winters meaning the ride is softer and the handling slightly woolier also. I actually really like how progressive my RWD 125d feels on the winter 225s, there is less absolute grip on dry warm roads than on the summers but the breakaway is very progressive and the car is basically more fun. Of course they grip much better than summers in extreme winter conditions. If it weren't for the fact that the winters do wear faster than summers at summer temps then I would leave them on all year, as it is I swap back and forth every 6 months. The summers are 245 rear 225 front and have nearly too much grip.

[Huertecilla]

often people use narrower, taller rubber for winters

Which is the sensible thing to do as it improves grip on wet/snow.

meaning the ride is softer and the handling slightly woolier also.

Which is only partialy so because the winter tires are best inflated to a higher pressure; the 'harder' air compensating for the more flexible wall.

I actually really like how progressive my RWD 125d feels on the winter 225s, there is less absolute grip on dry warm roads than on the summers but the breakaway is very progressive and the car is basically more fun.

AND way safer because the drift is more predictable/progressive and starting from a lower speed meaning far easier to control.
I would happily pay for the higher rate of wear, however because the less wide, higher section tires are cheaper, that about evens out.

[JeffCansell]

Had my 428i fitted with a set on Tuesday (as I'm currently on a project in Edinburgh for the next 6 months - never really needed them before in 18 years in Cheshire).

So now have 225/50R17s all round instead of the usual M-Sport 225/255R18 setup.

Literally appalling (wet) weather in the NW this morning - standing water all over the Motorways until the Lake District at least (12c and sunshine when I got to Edinburgh of course) - it would definitely have been very hairy on the summer wheels in comparison I think.

The car rides a lot nicer on the Edinburgh cobbled streets as well.

[robcat]

A question to those that have used winter/all season tyres.............are the sidewalls typically stiffer than for summer tyres? Is the ride quality better or worse?

Unusually, my winter tyres are the same width/profile/diameter as my summer's, so I can make a more meaningful comparison than most. (I realise that theoretically winters should be narrower, and of course even with summer tyres there can be differences, but it's closer to like-for-like).

There's definitely a bit more play in the steering, but it's not massive, and similarly there's a bit more road-noise (meant to measure it with a dB app, but wife will think I'm mad), but again it's not that significant.

There's less difference in ride quality than some reckon - I can't say I'd really notice it myself, and inflation pressures are only 2-3psi different, so that doesn't really affect things much (probably depends on how your car is set up though there).

I think you could get away with winters all year round TBH. What amazes me, is when you hit standing water on the motorway at 70mph, there isn't a hint of aquaplaning - and we may not get much snow, but we get a lot of rain in this country! I also think that since it doesn't really get very warm here in summer, they're probably not too far out of their optimum range.

(I have read that winters underperform summers in some conditions, so there is a compromise).

[Huertecilla]

There's less difference in ride quality than some reckon - I can't say I'd really notice it myself, and inflation pressures are only 2-3psi different, so that doesn't really affect things much (probably depends on how your car is set up though there).

You go size for size.
That means making less use of the specific properties, thus less difference in all.
It is an alternative option which still gives noticeably more grip in winter and less noticeable disadvantage through the summer.

It is our choice for the two 4x4s. That way we still maintain some off tarmac traction all year round whereas not overheating them during over 40 centigrade summer days.

[Mouse]

Thanks for the information about ride quality