I never used to bother until a few years ago when I completely lost traction on the snow and couldn't get up a hill, I was mortified as I consider myself a decent driver and had never had any previous issues. This spurred me into getting winter tyres fitted and I've never looked back. They completely transform the car on snow and offer benefits in other conditions too. Plus as previously said if you're planning on keeping the car a while your overall outlay is very little more really and far outweighed by the benefits of having the correct rubber on at the right time.
It is worth considering the 'why fit summer rubber' option as well. We bought a used Fabia 4 years ago as a runaround for the wife and I fitted Continental winters in late autumn. Come spring I was about to put the summers back on, which were a brand I'd never heard of, Wanli aka ditchfinders! I decided not to bother switching back and left the winters on all year to no detriment as far as I'm aware. They've even worn really well still having over 5mm tread left after about 15k. Knowing the car has decent winter rubber on this time of year with the Mrs and kids on board is worth every penny imo.
Having said that though last year I had some Michelin Crossclimates fitted to our Zafira after spotting a great deal on them in Costco. They have been outstanding tyres, I tested them on snow last year and whilst not quite as good as winters I feel they are good enough for the small amount of snow we get in the UK. I would probably try the Goodyear Vector 4 seasons gen2 next time after reading this review http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/accesso...r-tyres-tested
Got some for my sons car as he drives 50 miles a day and we have got stuck on the hill outside our house a few times (south coast and rear wheel drives) He's now done 45000 miles from new and will need two new summer tyres in April but the winters still have another season in them - so broadly cost neutral and gives me some peace of mind when he is out and about.
When I lived "up north" in the 60/70's I always had a spare set of wheels with "town and countries" on but most of you youngsters won't have a clue of what they were!
http://www.saveontyresdirect.co.uk/4...-Studded-Track
The Disco has Pirelli Scorpion Zero all season tyres (m&s rated) so we don't bother with winters - but in the snow last year the Subaru on winter tyres was noticeably better!Originally Posted by Optimum
Being retired I just look out the window and think sod that today if it's really bad, winter tyres would make me want to go out and try them.
We live in Cumbria and mainly drive in Scotland, and have all season tyres on one of our cars. Definitely worth it in my view. They're Vredsteins, because Michelin Cross Climate wasn't available in the size, and are so much better than summer tyres in cold conditions, and marginally better in the wet than the Sport Pilots that were on before. They don't hang on quite as well in the summer, and dry braking distances seem a bit longer, but are absolutely fine then too.
Not sure I'd bother if I lived in the Home Counties, but here - a sensible choice, I think.
I have been using Federal Himalayas.
They are good in snow but I have had michelin crossclimate on my wife's car.
The Himalayas are good in the snow.
Not tried the cross climate yet.
The day I couldn't even get a Range Rover off a level car park in Switzerland (while the local post van was still flying around the snow covered hills like it was summertime) I became a convert to winter tyres. A 2WD vehicle with winter tyres is significantly better than a 4WD without. The right 4WD with is almost unstoppable.
As for M&S, I've found them to be very good on mud but have regularly been stuck on snow (in a Defender).
Started fitting winter tyres when I owned a BMW, which was hopeless when it snowed. The price of a second hand set of alloys and Vredestein Quatrac 4s was cheaper than losing a few days pay. Also bought a spare set for my Octavia VRS.
I used to put them on at the end of November and leave them on until March time.
This year I have a Rav4 which has tyres down to 4mm. I am currently waiting for an order of Goodyear Vector 4 all seasons tyres to arrive at my local Costco.
The wife only uses her car for short commutes, so its a set of snow socks for her Micra.
Thought about them but haven't bothered as of yet. The A4 quattro hasn't let me down yet with a mixture of conditions. Another set of alloys with winter tyres could be on the card in the future though
I used to swap to winters from November onwards & revert back to trackday rubber end of Feb when I had an MX5.
I think we are all broadly pro winters on here so I am preaching to the converted but the thing some forget is while 4WD will get you going on summer tyres it makes no difference to stopping so in some respects can be more dangerous than 2WD where you are slithering along at 5mph.
fitted them to mine and the wife's cars since we moved to a hilly town, first year we couldn't get to the street if we had any snow. The winters are great in low temperatures, also an added benefit is giving your car a different look for the winter!
No, not really, as there is no need in the UK, plus I've been thought to handle my vehicles rather well ;)
Fas est ab hoste doceri
Narrow and high winter rubber grip illustrated.
Have a look especially at photo 2; awesome grip needed to squash the tires like that!
Summer hoops would simply slide straight on round.
Last edited by Huertecilla; 30th November 2016 at 22:19.
Not hugely wise advice TBH (sorry).
This will increase the contact area of the tyre - which is not what you want in these conditions.
Secondly, if you are unfortunate enough to have an accident you risk a ticket for under inflated tyres.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
And since most 4x4s tend to be way heavy buggers that makes it rather more dangerous still: A heavier car at higher speed with the same limited stopping grip.
ABS does not add grip either.
Especially in limited friction situations, the rubber is the crux.
It's elementary.
Btw another common confusion is rwd vs fwd traction in limited grip conditions.
Fwd has in general* more traction because of more weight on the front wheels.
This weight bias is the problem with the often mentioned BMWs; those are light at the rear. This has giver rwd a way worse rep than deserved. A porsche 924 p.e. is a totally different animal and a rwd rep based on that would be a nice one.
The pitfall of fwd is that steering and propulsion are on the same wheels, resulting in that rwd can be driven quite safely by a driver experienced with that: There is good reason they reigned in rallies till awd.
* Going uphill the weight transfers to the rear, giving rwd less disadvantage, possibly an advantage over fwd, especially since the steering and propulsion are separated.
Last edited by Huertecilla; 30th November 2016 at 22:51.
I live in North East Scotland , 1 mile uphill from a public road. I have used winter tyres and they do make a difference.
3 of our cars are 4WD - that makes a bigger difference.
Having said that, from past experience, getting up here through the snow in a Scooby WRX STi Type UK or Audi ur quattro turbo on low profile tyres was "a challenge", 4WD or not.
Our neighbour (much further down the hill) always fits winter tyres to her 2WD Golf each November and swears by them
Ok, now what about DOWNhill.
That always worries me way more summer or winter.
Not enough traction going up you stop, loosing grip going down ... you go down!!
In very slippery conditions, in traditional rallying fwd had an edge.
A legend that needs killing: you do not need to have snowy / icy winters to benefit from winter tyres: they will match a summer time on dry road between 7C and 11C for braking distance, and will very significantly outperform them in the wet and in colder temperatures. I live in Kent and I can absolutely guarantee that it can be cold and wet here as well. And that doesn't factor the driver's skill in, as whilst I believe a competent driver is able to avoid putting himself in a situation out of control by adapting his speed and road awareness to the grip he has, he cannot do anything without grip if somebody else loses control and requires him to suddenly take evasive action.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
I really don't get why some people still have the old fashioned attitude that it is a sign of inferior skill or a slight on their manhood and a waste of money to consider swapping over to winter tyres. If you experience winters in severe weather or very wet conditions you pretty quickly realise that it is a no brainer to use them and bearing in mind the balancing of load across the year, they are nearly cost neutral too as long as you aren't swapping cars which need different sizes too often. I guess the only real drawback is that of the storage requirement and a small fee to swap if you are unable to do it yourself.
it would seem two of us disagree with you, I have been doing it for years, also living in Scotland through many a bad winter.
The principle of winter tyres is about compound (temperature optimised) and contact patch - wider tyres equals more rubber in contact = bad, less contact patch is better.
Not sure why living in Scotland is an issue?
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Releasing air pressure is good in the sand to stop you from sinking in. But it does nothing to increase safety on the snow. You're much better off with snow socks
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Ever seen rally cars set up for icy snow stages? Skinny winter tyres are used. A reduced contact patch vs a gravel or tarmac stage as what you want in snow as it increases the pressure between the contact patch and road. Lowering pressures is great for loose sand, don't get too much of that in the UK though as a rule.
EDIT, cross posted with the above, seemingly in full agreement with them.
Maybe in the UK but even that I doubt very much.
Hence my question about summer rubber.A legend that needs killing: you do not need to have snowy / icy winters to benefit from winter tyres: they will match a summer time on dry road between 7C and 11C for braking distance, and will very significantly outperform them in the wet and in colder temperatures.
Unless one goes boy racer on good tarmac on a nice day, ignoring speed limits and risk to the rest of the world in the public space, summah wubbah has little advantage.
An observation: Winter tires; narrower and higher section do good on widish rims. Stay within specs but whereas a low section 175 should best not be put on a 6J rim, a 175/70 does very well on one and even meets specs of premium brands for winter rally rubber.
This observed, 175 is already rather wide for snow and ice rally rubber. You find 145 on 5,5J there!! And that is for really powerful cars too.
Moral: Do ride the high and narrow on snow/ice.
Last edited by Huertecilla; 30th November 2016 at 23:17.
I think we are basically saying the same thing but in different ways, 'snow tyres' or thinner tyres are designed to cut through the snow with less of a contact point, to try and hit the road surface underneath, they also make steering a bit easier.
normal tyres not designed for winter, work better when deflated a bit, there is more contact with the snow and allow a bit of play in the rubber.
then of course we need to get into actual tyre pressure due to the cold or hot environments.
then there is the debate about how effective 'winter tyres' are when they are not on snow, but compacted snow/ice, or dry ice.
I dont think there is a definitive answer to all of this, just your own experiance.
and Scotland has a lot to do with it, the winters are longer/colder/more snow/less light than were I am now in London.
I was referring to the mini in Monte Carlo, the Saab, the Citroen DS, and probably a few more: never fast enough on a season but in specific conditions they thrived.
As to the winter tyres used all summer, you can do it but the wear is increased ( not a big issue) as well as the braking distance
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
The way to go is all season tyres.
One set no issues with changing and storing wheels and extra expense involved.
Simples
Ah, the exceptions confirming the rule ;-)
Yes, on good tarmac under warm conditions braking distance is a bit less with summer rubber. Also max cornering speeds are higher since there is more friction available.
At legal speeds however, the cons outweigh the pros imo.
To the wide = best crowd:
I live down south.
I have 300 sunny days/year yet also a lot of snow as I live at 850 meters with mountain passes at 1600 meters.
I do a LOT of dirt roads all year round, dry, wet, snow ice.
The object of narrow and high is NOT to cut to the underlying layer but to have a high pressure contact patch = max friction coefficient on whatever you are on: There is NO WAY to 'cut' through compacted snow with your tires.
Hence rally tires go down as narrow as 145.
Oh and with HIGH pressures.
I don't bother. 😉
I've been a big fan and user of winter tyres even since we had those 2 cold winters a few years ago. I had a rwd car, and it was useless for weeks.
I bought a set of wheels and tyres from Germany, and swap them over myself. Bit of a ball-ache, but not the end of the world. (With my last car, the dealership swapped and stored then).
As as has been said, the difference is huge. Massive difference in wet conditions (no aquaplaning), and great on snow and ice. Although my car is awd, as again has been said, awd doesn't help you stop any quicker.
There's definitely a bit more road noise, and they do affect the steering feel a little bit imo.
Last edited by robcat; 1st December 2016 at 08:37.
Indeed so
When the snow turns to ice on the steepest section of our road my wife refused to drive on it for that very reason as it was like a bobsleigh run. It required judicious use of the gears, brakes (incl handbrake) and throttle to keep the car from sliding into the farmers dyke, whether shod with normal or winter tyres. Quite an unpleasant and stressful process ( and driving is my hobby)
Now I just hit the hill descent button and relax
To the OP, one of the best winter cars I had was an old Merc. 300E 4matic. When I fitted winter tyres it was even better
If really icy you need studded tires. But they have no real use in this country.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
For safety purposes chains do nicely as an alternative.
When I was a kid, in the Netherlands many motorists had chains in the boot in winter. No, that was not to go to winter sports as that was still only a dream for the man in the street.
EVERY driver knew how to deal with a car not getting enough traction to get away in the morning.
I also clearly remember the first time when a truck with sand/salt sprayed the tarmac* road beyond the housing estate. We HATED it as it meant the end of hanging on to the rear bumper.
Same days when it was normal to hear the slowing down of the starter motor whine because an engine would not fire up. Never mind freezing carbs. or misted op windows. Heck, wearing warm gloves/clothes inside the car.
* I remember it being converted to tarmac!! and that did not do anything positive to the safety as immediately speeds went up. Dents changed into deaths. It was obvious to us youths but even today city planners seem not to be aware.
Most of motorists in the urbanized western world have grown up in a different era. Mind; I am not slagging modern times but a product of that world encountering real world circumstances means a thoroughly unprepared driver.
Yes, chains are more adapted
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
I had a bit of a wobbly moment coming off a roundabout. My current car is my first performance car and in the past I didn't really push my other cars so wobbly moments are new to me.
It was cold and in the wet, too, I don't feel planted. So will be ordering some winter tyres today.
Chris, I agree with what you are saying. But this is what I mean to say.
On my Civic type R, according to Honda I should be running 34 PSI on the front and 31 PSI on the rear. So, in this cold, bad weather, the front wheels are always trying to spin.. and the traction light is always coming on. Then under braking the ABS comes on for a moment. I have had then check the alignment, and that ok. So I have tried different tyre pressures and I have found that the car handled so much better with lower tyre pressure. So, I am now running 31 psi on the front and 29 psi on the rear. But as you have said that this would not work in the snow.
Summer rubber on the balcony and out to play in the snow!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBUYjMjppXY&t=8s
I've just ordered four of these babies...
http://www.coopertire.co.uk/tyres/hi...thermaster-wsc
Found a local place that will fit and balance for £30, so I've also come in at under £100 a corner, which is nice.
Plus they look good
Akin tread patterns are just about universal. For good reason: it both works and looks the part.Plus they look good
Wish you safe traveling!
This thread has convinced me to buy a full set of Winter Tyres. Ordered online should arrive next week.
Keyword 'seem'.
Wet, cold conditions result in more punctures.
Using part worn is a self fulfilling prophesy in this respect ;-)
I use recycled tires as the extra rubber gives less punctures.
Yes, have done for the last 5 years or so.
To mirror what several others have said, grip is transformed in snow (so not frequently relevant but crucial if you have to drive and there's snow on the ground) and moderately improved in icy and wet conditions which is very much the norm from December until March.
In terms of cost, I've also found that this gradually becomes equalised by virtue of the initial investment slowly being recovered due to the need for fewer replacement summer tyres that are much more costly through generally being wider, larger diameter and lower profile assuming that different rims are used for winter rather than different tyres on the same rims.
Having fitted winter rubber in the past there is no question they are far far better in the cooler months and not just on wet or snow covered roads.
I defy anyone who has not tried them to comment without user experience and dismiss. If you think there is no need and they don't improve road safety, quite frankly sir you are talking b@ll@cks.
I agree.
Buy yourself a 2cv, fabulous car in snow,
For the converts:
There is a specialist winter and competition tire recycler here in Spain. They recover using custom rubber compounds. The 'thermic' is especially for colder condition like in winter England.
These tires make an even bigger difference!
http://www.neumaticosfedima.com/productos_nieve.html
I didn't have any until I got a RWD car in which breaking traction was not hard in wet/colder weather and I had to drive 25 miles accross fairly rural roads to work. Also came in ?2012 when there was a lot of snow in the East anyway.
Of course, the next few years had no snow(!) however they were very good in the torrential rain we had one December as very good at dispersing standing water. I got the second hand (but with 7.5mm+ of tread) and the came with different alloys so the summer alloys did not get all the salt and grime on them from winter roads and much easier to change over.
If you live in Northern Scotland and drive a Beemer I see the point of winter tyres
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