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Thread: New car for 2017 raids/rallies

  1. #1
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    Cool New car for 2017 raids/rallies

    March this year we saw a very suitable base for a dirt road car; the Volvo badged 340 cvt which was developed by DAF as their new 77 in 1971.



    40K original kms and free of rust. Not as surprising as it seems: This 1986 one was originally sold in Gernany in a program with 8 years warranty against rusting through and soon shipped to the Costa del Sol where is largely lived in a dry garage.
    All documentation with it.

    First the current project and 2016 though.

    Late Oktober, the big one behind us we pursued the one we saw earlier and, not surprisingly, yes it was still available.

    A deal was struck and my son and I had great fun driving the car back from Sevilla and my son baptized it 'Jolly Jumper'.

    Today was the first opportunity to 'work' on it.
    We stripped it from odd gadgetery like all sorts of dead angle mirrors, door edge protectors, door open reflectors, a plethora of stickers and a vintage pine smell thingamy dangling from the mirror and ... it is a good thing they don't make glue like that anymore.
    We swapped the curb magnets for the originals steel wheels and took it out for a spin. Again great fun but it needs WAY more ground clearance.


  2. #2
    Grand Master Velorum's Avatar
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    Good to see another 300 live on.

    There are very few left in the UK now.

    I saw one near Bracknell a few weeks ago, the first one I had seen for a long time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velorum View Post
    Good to see another 300 live on.

    There are very few left in the UK now.

    I saw one near Bracknell a few weeks ago, the first one I had seen for a long time.
    I inherited a 1985 2 litre 360 GLS in 1992. Worst car I've ever had and driven.

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    Grand Master Foxy100's Avatar
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    Excellent stuff. Will it be painted, modified, stripped out or anything else?
    "A man of little significance"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foxy100 View Post
    Excellent stuff. Will it be painted, modified, stripped out or anything else?
    As standard as possible and part stripped only. The car is veryVERY well sorted in standard trim: The mechanicals are basically a development op the 66 which was a development of the 55. They had it right in '71 and only very minor developments which were tried and tested improvements saw proction all the way to '01. So any mechanical mod is taking a risk.

    'Tuning' thus very sympathetic, hardly worth the tag; different filter/straight through dampers/ adjusted jetting.
    Will trick the electronic ignition into a bit more advance and the EMVK of the cvt into a lower ratio setting.

    Suspension needs be jacked up and larger diameter rims to the same effect. Would LOVE lightweight mag wheels but the budget stretches to used aluminium only.
    Need to be crafty with wheels/tires as that is the only way the oversteer can be changed into a livelier rear.
    Very much hope to lock the diff. but that is a bit of a challenge with the cvt layout.

    For the rest just beefing up suspension and add skid plates.

    No paint job. Just matt black the hood and add stickers of the contributors.

    HUGE development of today has been that the resident female has had a spin on the deserted industrial estate and some dirt roads. We have another in house variomatic convert. THAT is rather a help.
    Last edited by Huertecilla; 6th November 2016 at 22:32.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velorum View Post
    Good to see another 300 live on.

    There are very few left in the UK now.
    Just over 600....

    In the Netherlands it is even worse. 875 on the road and that is from MANY more sold.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maris View Post
    I inherited a 1985 2 litre 360 GLS in 1992. Worst car I've ever had and driven.
    Maybe you should have taken it low budget racing or drifting. They are surprisingly good there and very popular for over a decade now.

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    I've heard these make quiet good drift cars due to the rear drive set up.
    Used to have a few customers with these but haven't seen on for a few years now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave O'Sullivan View Post
    I've heard these make quiet good drift cars due to the rear drive set up.
    Transaxle and DeDion axle set up as good as the Porsche Weissach axle. With a bit of negative camber at the front it handles as good as the 924/944!!!

    The whole set up was designed for and around the variomatic. Volvo bought themselves a ready made gem with it. The design basics were so good that these basics were not changed from the '71 proto till the last one in '91.
    Volvo deserve a compliment for leaving well alone. The things they did change were mostly to meet their safety and quality image.
    That is why our '86 model has side impact protection bars, almost overpowered brakes and for the period very extensive rust prevention.

  10. #10
    Grand Master Foxy100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huertecilla View Post
    Would LOVE lightweight mag wheels but the budget stretches to used aluminium only.
    Funnily enough a friend of mine is now the European importer of RS Watanabe wheels:

    http://retroracecar.com/

    I'm not sure what they'd cost you but with the euro so strong against the pound possibly less than you might think.
    "A man of little significance"

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    Master kungfugerbil's Avatar
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    Excellent :D

    Keep us updated

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foxy100 View Post
    Funnily enough a friend of mine is now the European importer of RS Watanabe wheels:

    http://retroracecar.com/

    I'm not sure what they'd cost you but with the euro so strong against the pound possibly less than you might think.
    Thanks for the info but a set of ATS classics will set me back half of one mag.....
    Those ATS, Gotti, Campagnolo and Cromodora 5 spokes are furthermore THE design used on continental cars of the period as opposed to the mini-light for Brit cars.

    The Opel ATS ones are plentiful and have a 7 cm. less offset than the standard 300 rims so are just the ticket. Unfortunately only in 13'' but that has both good and bad sides:
    A larger rim means a lower section tire and thus a stiffer wall = more exact steering.
    It also means less air chamber = rougher ride on the rough.

    In both 13 and 14'' I can get the tire size giving me the desired ride height with 13 being a tad cheaper.

    The tread will be a bit of a compromise. For the wet/muddy I would ideally fit pretty nobbly ones but that is bordering on the dangerous on metaled roads so I will go for the most open M+S marked type.

    p.s. just made a German seller an offer on Opel rims identical to the ones under Dafne. I bet my son will like that.
    Last edited by Huertecilla; 7th November 2016 at 01:34.

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    I bought my Ma one of these years ago. One owner, full history, polished every Sunday - you get the picture. It had done just 40k in its entire life.

    She took it up to 80k in two years and it never, ever broke.

    It was an absolute blast to drive with the rubber band transmission - hysterical. I loved that thing!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    It was an absolute blast to drive with the rubber band transmission - hysterical. I loved that thing!
    There you have it in a nutshell why we have them as fun cars.

    Drifting the 340 is the weirdest thing.
    The inner wheel loses traction first and that is where all comparison with the usual stops.
    Because it has a differential, that wheel gets all the rive and speeds up which makes the transmission shift up which slows the show down.
    Because of the soft suspension the thing leans quite a lot and upon slowing down falls back.
    With full traction and having slowed down the variomatic shifts down, the car speeds up, leans, lifts a wheel etc. and you need to adjust steering accordingly of course.
    All that in a supple seesaw with small amplitude.
    Tricking the EMVK into a stage between 'Mountain' and normal, ups the ante as all then occurs at a lower ratio thus faster. It is a blast indeed.

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    These are the ones I'd like. Pop up in magnesium (by Cromodora) as well and then featherlight but also a bit of a risk.
    It will thus probably be a set of aluminiums from an Opel:




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    Quote Originally Posted by Foxy100 View Post
    or anything else?
    Forgot to mention the battery. Using a LithiumIon alternative, can save 15 kilo there and it is sitting in the corner AHEAD!! of the front wheels and you immediately notice that!

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    MX5.





    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by soundood View Post
    MX5.
    Not as daft as it sounds...


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    Quote Originally Posted by kungfugerbil View Post
    Not as daft as it sounds...
    And as I had stated in other threads, there was one in the SpainClassicRaid. Only the first stage but still.
    Also an MX5 is the current mountain champion of it's class in Andalucia. Although mostly tarmac it does also include camino.

    Meanwhile found 'caravan' springs for the 340.
    Nice compact coils that go around the shocks. No mods needed. My son should be able to fit them.
    They will add about 25-30% to the spring rate and raise the car several cms.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huertecilla View Post
    Before the clapped out Mk 1 Nissan Micra came along, clapped out 340s were the cars road cyclists used to warn each other about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Si View Post
    Before the clapped out Mk 1 Nissan Micra came along, clapped out 340s were the cars road cyclists used to warn each other about.
    Yeah, I was thinking of mounting a bull bar of sorts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foxy100 View Post
    Excellent stuff. Will it be painted, modified, stripped out or anything else?
    Tuning objective adjusted I think.
    Did not plan to go there but is seems that there is a very suitable camshaft available which was part of the original R-sport kit for the 343.

    The headers, carb and electric fan in the kit are standard on mine.
    A less restrictive filter, -exhaust and a camshaft are all needed to get the kit results claimed as 83 bhp.

    If I go that way, the head needs to come off anyway, so I will have the head skimmed for a higher c.r.
    With jetting adjusted this should result in some 85 bhp. minimum.
    Not a lot in the light of modern numbers but in the light of the standard 70 it is a serious gain. More serious still when one looks at what the 2.0 liter red block B19 delivered in the 343; 95 bhp. and that was quite a bit heavier lump of iron!

    Fingers crossed I can make that happen!

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    Although the manufacturers website is co-uk, the address is Belgian and the guy signed off 'Jan'. So I responded in Dutch and yes he is Dutch :-)
    The business end seems reasonable so yes that'll do!!

    Man, will that be fun; a 340 variomatic with enough horses to keep it rapidly speeding up past 80 km/h too. The lower ratio 'trick' will make it quick indeed. Ok, relatively. Not in the face of modern lardy superhatches with 200+ bhp but for the vintage it will be very quick.

    Speaking of relativity and superhatches. When the mid engine rwd Renault 5 Turbo came out it was WAY out there. It had 'only' 158 though.
    Rather shocking when you read that the fastest 2016 Honda Civic has 310 on the front wheels. But then it also weighs 500 kilos more. Hmmm...

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    Not mine and also it's a 1.7 manual but it's too illustrate something else:

    Look at the spare wheel and battery sitting high and dry way in front of the front wheels. Mine has a 70 Ah one in!!!!!
    Easy to imagine the effect of taking the one out and replacing the other by a 2 kg. LithiumIon one.



  25. #25
    Grand Master Foxy100's Avatar
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    I wonder if the spare wheel and battery were put there to give the car even more front grip?! Ok, I know it gives a car a bigger boot but even so...
    "A man of little significance"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foxy100 View Post
    I wonder if the spare wheel and battery were put there to give the car even more front grip?! Ok, I know it gives a car a bigger boot but even so...
    The other, apart from boot space, was understeer. Same reason tire pressure is specified as 1.9 for the 155SR13 with the slightly less weight bearing rear at 2.2.

    Volvo really wanted* heavy understeer to avoid the rear stepping out and thus surprising their safety conscious customers.

    Since the basics are so good, it is very easy to make the 340 more responsive and neutral.


    * the car being designed by DAF, built in their Born factory which is still operating and a firm Dutch fan base means that there is just about nothing unanswered about these cars.
    Last edited by Huertecilla; 10th November 2016 at 13:21.

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    work in progress

    My son is not working tomorrow, the group has cancelled, so I had to show/explain what he can do. Just simple things but is will do wonders for his confidence/ sense of involvement if he can do that on his own. A perfect opportunity because I will be at the coast. He'll do ok.

    Meanwhile some parts have arrived at my friend's who is coming over Monday and the rims have been shipped too.

    Buying anything more will have to wait after the end of year expense peak and replenishing of the resulting dip on the account.
    There is still enough to do until then.

  28. #28
    Will you be dramatically reducing the weight by removing the bumpers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward point View Post
    Will you be dramatically reducing the weight by removing the bumpers?
    Good suggestion but unfortunately not :-(
    Did look at that but although looking the part, it is mostly plastic. Both off incl. mountings amounts to at most 20 kilos and that is not counting the replacement fixtures for covering the holes and the number plate lighting.
    I would still take them off though if at the front it would not leave a cavernous empty space under the grille. I would NEED to put something else in place to pass inspection.
    Taking just the rear off looks even worse than with the bumpers on.
    I have decided to ignore them and see the front as a neat provision for auxiliary lamps.

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    RS kit for 1.4




    p.s. long gone have the days that the manufacturer offered engine tuning kits through the AD network
    Last edited by Huertecilla; 13th November 2016 at 09:46.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward point View Post
    Will you be dramatically reducing the weight by removing the bumpers?
    You are correct; I most likely will.
    I thought not, but there IS a sturdy steel profile inside the plastic.
    Taking the lot off, the profile out and putting the shrouds back on would leave the look totally original and take a handful of kilos off either far end.

    Received the ATS 13 x 6J alloys.
    I was rather surprised that the five sturdily packaged with wooden support and all weighed only 31 kilos.
    So I weighed the rims and they are well under 5 kilos; nice!!
    That is some 2,5 kilos off per wheel. Since that is both unsprung AND going round, it should be quite noticeable.

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    We fitted the springs around the rear shocks. My son being the mechanic, me the strong hand when needed.

    As I hoped the uprated rear provided the answer for what to do at the front and 360 GLT springs are ordered.

    It should give 4-5 cms. more static height and the 30% firmer all round suspension should keep the car considerably further from gravel/stones than that.

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    Unsuspected perk

    Since some 1.3 million 300 series cars were sold in basically unmodified form from begin till end, there are a great many spares available both NOS, OEM and after market.
    Even from ADs! For the 1.4 motor from both Renault and Volvo, for the 1.7 from Renault, PSA and Volvo.
    Now the cars are becoming quite scarce there is way more spares stock then cars left.

    Today received a large box filled with original Volvo stripe kits. These were supplied to the dealers.
    In all some two dozen of kits, complete with application instructions and a variety of assorted decals thrown in for good measure.
    Including shipping cost me the equivalent of the list price of one set in 1981 :-)

    Ok, the new ride height at the rear:



  34. #34
    Grand Master Foxy100's Avatar
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    Looks good, keep on posting updates please.
    "A man of little significance"

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    Master kungfugerbil's Avatar
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    Love it, my sort of project :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foxy100 View Post
    Looks good, keep on posting updates please.

    You can see that, even though the power pulling the axle forward is limited, that there is not all that much wheel diameter to spare at the bottom edge at the front of the wheel arch.

    The 165/80 recovers planned are about 2 cm. higher and I think the max. that will clear. I choose recovers because the extra layer of rubber makes quite a difference in resistance to punctures on gravel.

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    scr 2016

    A look back and confirmation of what we are preparing the 340 for.

    Received some photos taken at dusk in the Tabernas desert; the spaghetti Western country.
    One I like rather a lot though it looks ordinairy:






    We are both totally relaxed as the going over the gravel through this rambla (dry river) is smooth. Look at the tracks and slight countersteer though. We ARE motoring.

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    Meanwhile

    Here is my son scrubbing the lightweight ATS rims for his 340.

    We all know what a pita that is, cleaning well used old rims, so I am rather chuffed that he asked my advice how to tackle that from his own accord this morning.
    Even more that he is keeping at it!


  39. #39
    Grand Master thieuster's Avatar
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    Some thoughts... Lightweight is the word here. Cromo wheels are nice, but lowering the weight can be done on virtually every single detail of this car. These Volvos are heavy. All you can unscrew/unbolt and take out, is more speed. E.g., the seats are heavy as an oak pew!

    The big bore exhaust system. It only works properly when you're certain that the exhaust ports on the manifold are as large as the bore of the exhaust! There's a chance that you have to rework the exhaust manifold. This Renault engine was used in various cars and models over time. Is this the most powerful set up, or is there an even stronger version?

    I tend to agree with Foxy on the position of the spare wheel. There's certainly a safety feature, but it's a heavy lump just above and in front of the front axles...

    Then, finally from personal point of view... I like the rally look of the 55, I am not sure that I like the look of the 340 in rally livery.

    Menno

  40. #40
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    The ATS rims are surprisingly light. Quite a bonus as indeed unsprung weight counts at least double.
    Need new wheel nuts and there is more to be saved there than I expected.

    Spare wheel is standard replaced by a can here ;-) save for when we would really need to take two and then we have one wheel, one can. Wheel strapped behind passenger seat.

    The battery too sits high up in front of the front wheels. LithiumIon can save 15 kilos!!!! there.

    We will keep he standard seats as comfort is WAY important and the standard seats are rather generous with the long distance comfort.

    With all the things we are changing/bolting off I conservatively guesstimate a 100 kilo weight reduction.

    Don't worry about the exhaust. We will keep the standard diameter, just replace the mufflers by straight through.
    The standard manifold/headers set up on ours is the same as the '78 R-Sport kit. It has all the R-Sport mods actually save for the camshaft and I have sourced that one already. Indeed from Renault tuning. Volvo did the same for the kit.
    With the small but critical mod to the Rendix ingnition it should all add up to at least 85 hp.

    As to the looks, well, that is just a pov. No, I don't means taste, I really mean point of view. We really like the anti-sportive granddad look and will even put a sticker 'Bedankt Opa!' on either side :-)
    Seen as such it has left field charm:



    On the looks front we are not sure what to do about the fog lamps.
    There was an optional radiator grill with them integrated. I reallyreallyREALLY don't like the look of those and a bumper mounted set would look way more elegant but ... the grill ones do keep in style with the theme.
    Ah well, no hurry with those.
    Last edited by Huertecilla; 17th December 2016 at 17:22.

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    By the way Menno; it is all very relative. You do realize that the 914 is about the same weight, has not a lot more power and does have a questionable lay out?!

    It only has a Porsche badge creating a sportscar image for it whereas the 300 series has the Volvo image covering quite succesful sports laurels.

    Interesting not?!

    It is very much the same with the variomatic. Whereas the proof of the pudding is a long list of wins and a ban in F1 for being too good, the image still is it being a drive for invalids and geriatrics.

    Meanwhile:



    and time to give the wheels another going over with solvents.

    Still not convinced about the rubber we will fit.
    Being 6J the 175/70 would suit them well, but the wider the heavier and the LESS traction on the loose stuff.
    155 would be stretching it. Literally, so I am in doubt about 165 and 175. Probably overthinking it

    Seen that per '84 the chassis grew a beam at the head of the front outriggers. It is just there for added crash crumpling; has no other structural function which makes me think about removing it. That is easily 10 kilos of steel hanging way out in front.
    Anyway still lots of other things to do before we get to that. I will have good detailed look when we swap the front springs and plan it in for when we have the hood off/radiator out to swap the camshaft.

    Also, there is a guy in Sweden who makes (very) lightweight bonnets. Hmmm.... Not sure whether it is worth the hassle of having to lift it off the locating pins for every look under it.

  42. #42
    Craftsman
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    I have really enjoyed following your search for the car for next year and hope that you keep this thread updated. It is something I would love to do.

    Remind us when the event is scheduled for again?

    Thanks

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    Back to the wheel nuts for a moment.
    Having raced lightweight motorcycles for many years, I am acutely aware of the specific densities and other properties of the most used materials.
    Duralumin is quite suitable as a straight replacement for many steel fastener applications whereas is weighs only third.
    Depending a bit on the design of the OEM wheel nut, on an average 5 bolt the reduction is about 200 gram.
    Now, unsprung weight is rather an undervalued subject. Yet any reduction, however small, makes it easier for the suspension to keep the wheel on the ground. improves road holding!!

    There is a lot of pseudo science on the web about the calculated value of it. The reason is the weight ratio between sprung and unsprung weight: Say a car weighing 1000 kilo and wheel = tire weighing 20, than the ratio of unsprung versus sprung of THAT corner is 50 and for all 4 it is 25.
    There is however not much you can do with that number.
    Performance wise per example it still is only the actual kilos reduced times two (because the wheels go round and the mass thus travels at double speed). Thus a weight reduction of 10 kilo on the wheels has the performance effect of 20 on the car, irrespective of the sprung/unsprung ratio.
    This means that taking out the rear bench and leaving the spare wheel out does more for your acceleration/deceleration than mag alloys rims!!!
    As far as performance and road holding is concerned the ratio, the sprung weight should thus best be just taken out of the picture.

    Best to concentrate on the % of weight reduction of the wheel itself. If the wheel is 30% lighter, than the suspension has that much easier a job to keep it put. How much better the actual road holding ...ah that is another mater as that is relative to the properties/performance of other factor like the tires. So while a 30% lighter wheel will NOT add up to 30% higher cornering speed it will make for about 30% better rubber to road contact and as such will greatly influence the responsiveness of the steering.
    Now THAT is a thing the more astute driver WILL notice and which will do WAY more for you that the aforementioned chucked rear bench/spare wheel. Regardless of the car!

    Back to the wheel nuts:
    If your wheel/tire weights 20 kilos, then 200 grams lighter nuts are only 1% but if your set weighs only 15 kilos then it becomes... bugger

  44. #44
    Master kungfugerbil's Avatar
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    I've always been sceptical of extreme weight saving actions where the result is measured in grams or fractions of a percentage point. It's like when Honda used a mesh gear gaiter on the NSX-R rather than leather... Whether you have one croissant or two before setting off in the morning has the same effect. Emptying your bladder fully will save more weight.

    Interior strip - definitely. Replace glass with plastic - if you can live with it, why not. Lightweight bonnet/boot lid - why not. But different material wheel nuts to save grams? Pimp accessory ;)

    On the livery front, there is an historic precedent, do it :)

  45. #45
    Craftsman
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    These old Volvos are great fun and very robust. I used a couple to learn my way around the Nurburgring, handle well although they lean a lot in the corners. We drove them until the windscreens cracked and then bought another and transferred any good bits!





    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  46. #46
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    Thanks for sharing that one!!!

    The body lean and resulting understeer are indeed a feature designed to be safe.
    Not difficult to 'correct'. The 360 cup racers have the camber modded to negative went/go ok enough.

    I am not going all that way.
    For my purpose weight reduction at the nose will in combination with 360 GLT springs result in quite enough handling improvement: Narrow roads and tight corners are a world apart from the Ring. Even with the soggy standard set up I can for a large part drive around the understeer. Especially down hill feigning turn in and/or handbrake make for more fun actually

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward point View Post
    Will you be dramatically reducing the weight by removing the bumpers?

    Finally got round to taking the lot off and mounting the shrouds again so it looks as standard.
    A bit of a disappointing result; just a whiff over 4 kilos.





    The front was 3 kilos and since it was way out in front should account for SOMEthing.
    Not as much as a lithium ion battery would reduce, this was for free.

    We have stiffer front springs in. Should keep the car 3 cm. higher off the ground and reduce body roll.

    The camshaft has also arrived.

  48. #48
    Apropos of fun cars, we've just witnessed 70+ Fiat 500's been driven spiritedly along the windings roads of the Picos d'Europa mountains - and the drivers were clearly enjoying the sheer fun of getting the best out of their cars as much as we and the other spectators were.

    R
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralphy View Post
    Apropos of fun cars, we've just witnessed 70+ Fiat 500's been driven spiritedly along the windings roads of the Picos d'Europa mountains - and the drivers were clearly enjoying the sheer fun of getting the best out of their cars as much as we and the other spectators were.

    R
    Thanks for sharing!

    I can imagine that watching the drivers enjoy themselves must have been fun.
    And yes, it is a real added value to share the experience.

    Hope you enjoyed/are enjoying your trip/stay to/in Spain.

  50. #50
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maris View Post
    I inherited a 1985 2 litre 360 GLS in 1992. Worst car I've ever had and driven.
    Have to agree. The bloke who penned it should have been took outside and the pen shoved up his backside sideways. Hideous looking thing

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