Has Tudor failed (again) in the UK?

[RAJEN]

There's also a setting that will turn your text black... ;-)

Ha!

[Iconoclast]

It's still got the "It's the cheaper Rolex" brand hanging over it's head imo and an Omega is better value at the same level, My SMPC is leagues ahead of the black bay in every way.

I have spoken to 3 or 4 people advising to buy a Tudor and all have said "it's not a Rolex" and "people in my office would know that !!!!"

I also bought a black bay like many have done, from here in fact, and soon sold it on, it feels too cheap for the price.
the case shape feels and looks bulky to me and I never liked the hand design really, I paid £1650 and had to sell it even cheaper !!

Would I buy the brand again, not after buying two more Rolex's , I see no point going backwards ! and while I lost money even on a 2nd hand Tudor, my 2 Rolex's have gone up £1k each !!!

can they go up VS Omega at the £3k price point, not imho.

Bit like buying into Skoda and not VW or Audi. If you cannot afford to buy one you buy the next brand down, It's the same with Tudor and that's the rub.

Any luxury brand is about that tier level you live on, like it or not.

But I think shoes show that more than anything, people try too hard to get into Rolex bling but forget the shoes they have on are Clarks not Loake/Barkers etc !!!

I can see you buying 'into' Skoda. But I can't even see you buying a Tudor.

[Der Amf]

Not long ago 90% of Tudor's sales were in China. It's now 70% (no, I can't remember where I read that, sorry)

I would love to know which models they predominantly sell there.

[Mrdemon]

A very challenged and a sorry point if view.

shop at Primark do you ?

[Itsguy]

I'm not sure if the brand quite knows what it is yet, and if it does, the public still don't. Is it a heritage brand? A cartoon of a Rolex? A Rolex without the divisive associations and price tag? A more modern and experimental Rolex? A casual alternative? An affordable in-house movement? So is the in-house movement supposed to make it better than an IWC with an ETA in it, or not? At least when it was a Rolex case with an ETA in it things were nice and clear.

Break out hits define brands in the end. The BB is almost that, the BB36 could be that too. It's hard to say exactly what it stands for, but somehow it works as a half-heritage, half-modern, half casual watch, not too serious, but just serious enough. We'll see if they can repeat the trick. Very hard though when you are trying not to tread on the toes of your higher end sibling. The designers need to be able to make the best watch they can, even if it turns out to be more attractive than the Rolex, in design or value for money. I feel they'd be wary about making anything that upstaged the Datejust, or the Daytona, even though you could imagine watches that might do it. Consider the Tudor prince Jumbo at a spot on 38mm for instance, which also had a day-date version. Arguably the sweet spot that Rolex missed with the DJII.

Their relationship with Rolex is a blessing and a curse in the end. Neither their designers nor their customers can escape the thought 'A Rolex, only much cheaper'. Much like Grand Seiko, who will never escape the thought, 'A Seiko, only much more expensive'!

[redsox78]

The Tudor brand does sit in a difficult price band, above Tag but below Omega. It's difficult to see them being able to compete with Tags brand recognition with the man on the street and they're not at the same level of quality as Omega. I do hope they preserve though.

Thought they were mostly comparable to Tag. Tag prices are mad now!

http://www.beaverbrooks.co.uk/000908...h-Mens-Watch/p (ceramic case!)

vs

http://www.beaverbrooks.co.uk/001217...-Mens-Watch-/p (cool!)

Of course they are more than the F1's

[snowman]

what watch do you wear ?

Today? A Lanco...

Yesterday it was a, errr, Seiko, as I recall.

I wore my Dreadnought Voyager all last week.

I don't own a Tudor (I can see me getting a Big Block sometime) or a Rolex, but if I liked a model from either range enough, I would, but I certainly wouldn't buy a watch from either range JUST to say I had one...

M

[paskinner]

The reference to a 'Seiko only More expensive' rather misses the point. Seiko are probably not stupid, and they chose their marketing with care......Grand Seiko is intended to be directly linked with Seiko. It is a demonstration of what they are capable of, and as such will give a 'halo' effect on ordinary Seiko. They are never ashamed of Seiko, why should they hide the origin of GS?
Tudor are an intrinsic part of Rolex, why hide the fact? Why can't Rolex have a wider price range, many succesful companies have managed that. Tudor, as a marketing concept, is old fashioned and perhaps doomed. Low cost BMWs are still called BMWs.

[Itsguy]

The reference to a 'Seiko only More expensive' rather misses the point. Seiko are probably not stupid, and they chose their marketing with care......Grand Seiko is intended to be directly linked with Seiko. It is a demonstration of what they are capable of, and as such will give a 'halo' effect on ordinary Seiko. They are never ashamed of Seiko, why should they hide the origin of GS?
Tudor are an intrinsic part of Rolex, why hide the fact? Why can't Rolex have a wider price range, many succesful companies have managed that. Tudor, as a marketing concept, is old fashioned and perhaps doomed. Low cost BMWs are still called BMWs.

The solution is clearly to rename Rolex 'Grand Tudor' ;-)

[Mark lowman]

A very challenged and a sorry point if view.

If you think Loakes or Barkers cut the mustard I'm sorry my friend you should be on Lobbs. Cheney, Trickers or Churches at a push maybe

[PhilipK]

Low cost BMWs are still called BMWs.

I thought that they were called MINIs.

[alfat33]

Low cost BMWs are still called BMWs.

I thought they were called MINIs.

[paskinner]

The solution is clearly to rename Rolex 'Grand Tudor' ;-)

Or Tudor could morph into 'Rolex' and Rolex would then become ' Grand Rolex'.
Or maybe not........

[RAJEN]

shop at Primark do you ?

No. Just buy second hand from SC. If I can afford the price. Otherwise, charity shops.

[alfat33]

I thought that they were called MINIs.

Grammatically more correct than mine, but I don't like that blue text either ;)

We only need one more MINI and we could remake the Italian Job.

[gbn13]

If you think Loakes or Barkers cut the mustard I'm sorry my friend you should be on Lobbs. Cheney, Trickers or Churches at a push maybe

I say stick to Berluti for best and wear the others for daily wear.

[Mrdemon]

If you think Loakes or Barkers cut the mustard I'm sorry my friend you should be on Lobbs. Cheney, Trickers or Churches at a push maybe

I am talking tier of life

lobbs are above my life stye tier group earnings :-) as are PP complications watches.

are you getting it yet ?

[Hood]

And many do as the watches are deserving of their reputation. However, far more seem to be sold to nonWIS. The brand represents the average joe's aspirational statement of wealth, the middle England dream of one day having a Rolex submariner on your wrist to go with the German car on the drive of your 4-5 bedroom cookie cutter new build home. It is part of a stereotype. The Submariner is practically part of a middle age man uniform consisting of mid to dark blue straight leg jeans, casual leather shoes (never trainers, that would be too much) and what looks like a Charles Tyrwhitt casual shirt tucked in with the sleeves rolled twice. A common site in many parts of England on any given evening or weekend.

I can't believe you have pretty much sledged my go to outfit for a night out.
Cant see me in skinny jeans though so I might stick with regular fit.
The Sub will definitely need to go and a pair of Adidas originals bought.
My wife might think I'm having an affair

[andybaird22]

Grammatically more correct than mine, but I don't like that blue text either ;)

We only need one more MINI and we could remake the Italian Job.

I thought they were called minis'


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[alfat33]

I thought they were called minis'


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You're only supposed to blow the bloody doors off!

[Hood]

You're only supposed to blow the bloody doors off!

You're a big man,but you're in bad shape.With me it's a full time job.
Now behave....

[GrandS]

Not long ago 90% of Tudor's sales were in China. It's now 70%.

I guess the Chinese are gradually learning that Tudor is a poor man's Rolex, and who wants to look like a poor man?

[Davidd]

You're a big man,but you're in bad shape.With me it's a full time job.
Now behave....

Goodbye Eric...

[Gruntfuttock]

Perhaps they should try a sale. Isn't it annoying when your local AD has a 'Sale' on and you just know which particular brands will not be taking part! My local AD (Omega & Breitling) had a sale recently (advertised in the local paper) and I was suckered into looking in their window on the day. IIRC there was one Breitling (of the huge blingy hideous variety) discounted and one Omega De Ville. Pathetic.

My other local AD (Tudor & Rolex amongst others) don't have sales but they did manage to get a Black Bay black bezel in a while ago; making a big fuss of it in the window display. It took about 2 months to sell, so hardly flying out the door for such a 'rare, limited edition, highly sought after' model. They haven't had another one in since; probably glad to get shot of that one before the Rolex in house movement version arrives I expect.

Apologies for any typos but 'Breitling' keeps being corrected to Breathing...

[forpetesake]

Tudor, as a marketing concept, is old fashioned and perhaps doomed.

In English the word 'Tudor' is too close to the word, well you know the one.

[Alansmithee]

In English the word 'Tudor' is too close to the word, well you know the one.

I don't actually???

[forpetesake]

I don't actually???

That's OK then.

[eagletower]

I guess the Chinese are gradually learning that Tudor is a poor man's Rolex, and who wants to look like a poor man?

Or their sales outside of China has increased ?

[mowflow]

I can't believe you have pretty much sledged my go to outfit for a night out.
Cant see me in skinny jeans though so I might stick with regular fit.
The Sub will definitely need to go and a pair of Adidas originals bought.
My wife might think I'm having an affair

Sorry. :(

[mowflow]

The reference to a 'Seiko only More expensive' rather misses the point. Seiko are probably not stupid, and they chose their marketing with care......Grand Seiko is intended to be directly linked with Seiko. It is a demonstration of what they are capable of, and as such will give a 'halo' effect on ordinary Seiko. They are never ashamed of Seiko, why should they hide the origin of GS?
Tudor are an intrinsic part of Rolex, why hide the fact? Why can't Rolex have a wider price range, many succesful companies have managed that. Tudor, as a marketing concept, is old fashioned and perhaps doomed. Low cost BMWs are still called BMWs.

Good point but the 3 big German manufacturer do sub brand the top level halo models and more recently the next level down as an achievable aspiration. In the case of BMW that's the M cars at the top and the M performance models such as the M235i etc next level down.

Screw it. Your point still stands.

[watchcollector1]

I am talking tier of life

lobbs are above my life stye tier group earnings :-) as are PP complications watches.

are you getting it yet ?

"Life style tier group earnings"?? Seriously, what is that? I'm not sure if you're joking but if not you really need to take a damn good look at yourself.

[ajpac]

At the end of the day we each have our own individual tastes. I for one am very happy with my North Flag and see the Tudor brand as a stand alone name. Forget the poor mans Rolex theory and appreciate them or not as an individual watch brand.

[Itsguy]

..... Tudor are an intrinsic part of Rolex, why hide the fact? Why can't Rolex have a wider price range, many succesful companies have managed that. Tudor, as a marketing concept, is old fashioned and perhaps doomed. Low cost BMWs are still called BMWs.

Actually, they already do have a wide price range, from the most basic stainless steel no date three handers to diving watches and chronogrpahs, to precious metals to diamond encrusted monstrosities. But for each type of watch they aim to be reasonably high up in that category, and that defines what the brand means, a dependable luxury watch with a certain history at a certain price point, relative to that style of watch. Not so different from what BMW do - they have a wide model and price range, but they would always aim to be a relatively premium example of each kind of car.

I wouldn't see the advantage in Rolex extending the range downwards under the same brand name - it would erode the brand name as a universal symbol of a relatively luxurious watch. You can indeed argue that GS do exactly the opposite and add value to the brand, but they already have the cheaper models so it's going in the other direction and extending the range upwards. I like and own GS, but you can see from numerous discussions on this forum that having cheaper and more expensive brands under the same banner often just throws people.

[lordloz]

I thought they were called MINIs.

No....... THEY are BINI's...

[MarkO]

In English the word 'Tudor' is too close to the word, well you know the one.

Hodor !

[tertius]

Actually, they already do have a wide price range, from the most basic stainless steel no date three handers to diving watches and chronogrpahs, to precious metals to diamond encrusted monstrosities. But for each type of watch they aim to be reasonably high up in that category, and that defines what the brand means, a dependable luxury watch with a certain history at a certain price point, relative to that style of watch. Not so different from what BMW do - they have a wide model and price range, but they would always aim to be a relatively premium example of each kind of car.

I wouldn't see the advantage in Rolex extending the range downwards under the same brand name - it would erode the brand name as a universal symbol of a relatively luxurious watch. You can indeed argue that GS do exactly the opposite and add value to the brand, but they already have the cheaper models so it's going in the other direction and extending the range upwards. I like and own GS, but you can see from numerous discussions on this forum that having cheaper and more expensive brands under the same banner often just throws people.

Very interesting point GS sort of pull Seiko "up" but Tudor (if Rolex branded or too closely associated with them) would pull Rolex "down".

I'd be very sorry for Tudor to "fail" in the U.K. as I really like some of their designs, but agree with their posters that it is surely to early to tell and Rolex (as a group) surely have a much longer term perspective.

[mowflow]

Sticking with the BMW comparison, although you can look at many of the car brands for a comparison. BMW attracted a fair amount of criticism when they first released the 1 series as it was diluting the brand. At the time BMW were regarded as a manufacturer of mid to luxury level saloons. Shortly after the release of the 1 series I attended a talk by Chris Bangle (then chief of design at BMW Group). The talk was largely about product diversification and creating a consistent brand style but he touched on the reasoning for the development of the 1 series and hinted to future product diversification (which BMW have since done). The thinking was to produce a product that would catch the next generation of BMW saloon/coupe buyers at an early stage and build that brand loyalty as early as possible. I don't think anyone can deny that this has worked, whether it's worked as they hoped i'm not so sure as some buyers just keep buying 1 series after 1 series or more likely 3 series after 3 series.

You can reverse the same strategy with the Japanese manufacturers and look at Infiniti and Lexus. Both had success but more by stealing sales from the Germans brands via added value with the same quality at a similar price point rather than escalating buyers through Toyota and Nissan. It seems that offering a slice of the aspirational brand at a lower entry price has definitely worked for the automotive industry without damaging those brands.

Given the lack of young people now wearing watches let alone being prepared to spend thousands on a watch I think it would be a shrewd company that learned their lessons from the likes of BMW. By contrast the watch industry seems to be very old fashioned and rather elitist in it's approach which in itself strikes me as a possible turn off for many young people.

[329gav]

I think people need to stop thinking of Tudor being the cheaper Rolex, they are merely owned by them but they are their own brand.

The VW Skoda issue is the same but Skoda make some great cars, VW money has seen to that.

No one goes on about Longines/Omega even though they are both owned by Swatch? Is that because the Swatch name is on the least expensive models the company own? It's the reverse?

Tudor are Tudor they are excellent watches and people should see them as such.


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[329gav]

If you think Loakes or Barkers cut the mustard I'm sorry my friend you should be on Lobbs. Cheney, Trickers or Churches at a push maybe

Had Cheneys, overpriced and lasted half the time of my Loakes. Just a point.


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[Mrdemon]

"Life style tier group earnings"?? Seriously, what is that? I'm not sure if you're joking but if not you really need to take a damn good look at yourself.

the world is classed, you have people on hand outs, min wage earners, middle class, upper class, super rich.

you don't get people on min wage buying a Rolex or a £200k car.

hence I asked if said Rolex owners shop at Primark, I doubt many do !!

EVERY thing YOU buy is aimed at the price bracket you can afford and has a target market in that bracket !! no point aiming a £250k car at a £16kPA earner

YOU yes YOU will fit into a tier earning group like it or not, what do you think market men/women do all day trying to sell goods to Every level of earner !

[mowflow]

the world is classed, you have people on hand outs, min wage earners, middle class, upper class, super rich.

you don't get people on min wage buying a Rolex or a £200k car.

hence I asked if said Rolex owners shop at Primark, I doubt many do !!

EVERY thing YOU buy is aimed at the price bracket you can afford and has a target market in that bracket !! no point aiming a £250k car at a £16kPA earner

YOU yes YOU will fit into a tier earning group like it or not, what do you think market men/women do all day trying to sell goods to Every level of earner !

The NRS demographic categories are generally used in the marketing and advertising industry. These are...

A = Upper middle class
B = Middle class
C1 = Lower middle class
C2 = Skilled working class
D = Working class
E = Those at lowest level of subsistence

The vast majority of watches we have discussed here are A, B and C aimed and in that regard there is little difference between the brands (as one poster already said, an AD testified that many people come in, look at a Tudor and end up spending the extra on a Rolex). Watches of this nature are emotional purchases. As the market is so crowded with so many established brands all aimed at the same socio economic groups the smart marketing is aimed at age differentiation and lifestyle association (men flying jets, F1 etc).

[Itsguy]

I think people need to stop thinking of Tudor being the cheaper Rolex, they are merely owned by them but they are their own brand.

.....

Tudor are Tudor they are excellent watches and people should see them as such.


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A fair point, but since that's how the brand started, and they are made by the same people, it's hard to escape comparisons - BBs and BB36s will inevitably get compared to Subs and Explorers. In fact watches from totally unrelated brands also tend to so Tudor would be lucky to escape it!

Had Cheneys, overpriced and lasted half the time of my Loakes. Just a point.

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OT it may be but that's useful info!

[gbn13]

At the end of the day we each have our own individual tastes. I for one am very happy with my North Flag and see the Tudor brand as a stand alone name. Forget the poor mans Rolex theory and appreciate them or not as an individual watch brand.

I agree. When I bought a NF, I bought it because I liked it, not because I couldn't afford another Rolex.

Neil

[stefmcd]

How patient are Rolex likely to be? Will they give them establishing time or decide sooner to 'cut their losses'? The product is there IMO. It just comes down to promotion and consumer confidence. Rolex co. know how to promote. How much are they willing to invest in Tudor's promotion? Consumer confidence and brand awareness does not come overnight. With the strong product line I suspect and hope they'll play the long game.

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[JP Chestnut]

Possibly so but they were just trying to get a quick sale me thinks?

Totally possible, likely even, but you're you never know.

[snowman]

the world is classed, you have people on hand outs, min wage earners, middle class, upper class, super rich.

you don't get people on min wage buying a Rolex or a £200k car.

hence I asked if said Rolex owners shop at Primark, I doubt many do !!

EVERY thing YOU buy is aimed at the price bracket you can afford and has a target market in that bracket !! no point aiming a £250k car at a £16kPA earner

YOU yes YOU will fit into a tier earning group like it or not, what do you think market men/women do all day trying to sell goods to Every level of earner !

I bet a LOT of Rolex owners shop at Primark. Just look at how many here crow about not wasting their money at Sainsbury, but getting quality at Lidl and Aldi...

I see a lot of people wearing Rolexes, some of them appear to shop mainly at Sports Direct... Rolex is such a strong brand that its appeal transcends social groups.

SURE, if you're on minimum wage, you probably won't have a Rolex, but if you earn a BIT of money, you might be so attracted by the brand that you'll buy one anyway... Look at the number of people who buy iPads and iPhones, despite having little money to spare, it's another brand that has massive cross market appeal.

You might aspire to the lifestyle of the Kardashians (or even Vulcans or Romulans...), but you can't afford a jet, private yacht or Lamborghini, BUT you CAN (just) stretch to a Rolex...

M

[Alansmithee]

I bet a LOT of Rolex owners shop at Primark. Just look at how many here crow about not wasting their money at Sainsbury, but getting quality at Lidl and Aldi...

I see a lot of people wearing Rolexes, some of them appear to shop mainly at Sports Direct... Rolex is such a strong brand that its appeal transcends social groups.

SURE, if you're on minimum wage, you probably won't have a Rolex, but if you earn a BIT of money, you might be so attracted by the brand that you'll buy one anyway... Look at the number of people who buy iPads and iPhones, despite having little money to spare, it's another brand that has massive cross market appeal.

You might aspire to the lifestyle of the Kardashians (or even Vulcans or Romulans...), but you can't afford a jet, private yacht or Lamborghini, BUT you CAN (just) stretch to a Rolex...

M

The ASP of watches in the UK is something like £90 - I'm struggling to see many people on low incomes buying a rolex regardless of how attractive it is as a brand...

[Mark lowman]

I agree. When I bought a NF, I bought it because I liked it, not because I couldn't afford another Rolex.

Neil

Exactly just enjoy it. It's a lovely watch and I thought good for then doing something a little different.

[Mark lowman]

I bet a LOT of Rolex owners shop at Primark. Just look at how many here crow about not wasting their money at Sainsbury, but getting quality at Lidl and Aldi...

I see a lot of people wearing Rolexes, some of them appear to shop mainly at Sports Direct... Rolex is such a strong brand that its appeal transcends social groups.

SURE, if you're on minimum wage, you probably won't have a Rolex, but if you earn a BIT of money, you might be so attracted by the brand that you'll buy one anyway... Look at the number of people who buy iPads and iPhones, despite having little money to spare, it's another brand that has massive cross market appeal.

You might aspire to the lifestyle of the Kardashians (or even Vulcans or Romulans...), but you can't afford a jet, private yacht or Lamborghini, BUT you CAN (just) stretch to a Rolex...

Sure there not fakes? A trip to Turkey or Thailand can provide you with all sorts of options
M

[Neilw3030]

Maybe if Tudor was sold at other shops rather than alongside Rolex, Goldsmiths and the like could push them as a stand alone brand.