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I thought Alan Quinlan was magnificent; an outstanding performance for Ireland. Mark Robson wasn't far behind him.
Australian commentators should take note!
Amazing effort from the Irish yesterday - just lacked the quality to break through the Kiwi line.
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I thought Alan Quinlan was magnificent; an outstanding performance for Ireland. Mark Robson wasn't far behind him.
Australian commentators should take note!
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Jim.
Great game alright, it was always going to be a tough ask to beat the all blacks a second time in a row. If a couple of moves had gone Ireland's way it could have been a different story.
Mark McCall said today that George Kruis should be fit by next weekend, and Maro Itoje might be fit in a couple of weeks.
If so, they could both be available for the game against Australia.
Since 2012 I think.
He's very good at looking like he's trying to tackle etc but just not quite managing it
Surprised he came out for the 2nd half tbh
Wish they'd played Giles but that turned out not be be a game to try him out in.
Not even convinced by North at the moment.
Originally Posted by valleywatch
interesting 24 players kept on by Jones - well, in the backs at least.
Only 1 'proper' winger with Roko released back to Bath (I would assume Jones intends for Daly to play on the wing again) and 5 centres
I think Roko was released due to the his defensive showing. Goode was most likely released because of a rather questionable display and that Brown is fit again.
Plus against Argentina I am sure he wants to try a few more combinations prior to the game against Oz.
Shame for Roco, but hopefully back. I think he would be a good fit for the 6 Nations.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Slight change of tack fellas, but the England Rugby Store has a 'Black Friday' 20% off all day today, just picked up a Lions shirt for £48.
What a game. Wow! I need a sit down. To perform like that for 75 minutes with 14 men was brilliant
That was a gutsy performance. Winning ugly.
Just the Australians to beat now. Is there any news on Billy Vunipola's injury? You don't realise how much England rely on, and revolve around Billy until he's not there.
Ligament injury apparently so he will be out for the Aussies. However if Australia can't beat a depleted Ireland side then they are getting smacked at Twickers
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I hope so.
i wonder whether we will see Roco next game?
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Hopefully more likely to see Hughes as Harrison is too lightweight at 8 and we'll need good ball carrying options. Phenomenal performance though. Nasty stamp st the end, wonder how many weeks he'll get.
Superb performance by Jonny May to play 80 minutes on both wings at the same time! Credit to Joseph and panto villain Mike Brown too - they covered very well for Daly's brainfart
Agreed, Nasty and cynical. I heard today it could be 20+ weeks.
On a related topic, my son's team beat Marlborough U15 today. 18-17 with the final kick of the game. Brilliant stuff and only one player sent to hospital - suspected collarbone.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
He's not an 8 by trade - something inherently obvious in every scrum after he came on as instead of getting stuck in and pushing he had his head up - as you might expect from a flanker. I think we might not see too much more of him as Hughes or Morgan are likely to get a return to the squad and Clifford is back playing for Quins this afternoon I think, so he may get a recall too.
I am always interested in the analysis of the game, and it shows how much of it is requires a lot more thought than those who just think of it a brute force realise.
The detail that goes into these match reports in the Telegraph is always well worth a read:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-uni...d-world-elite/
Hughes got a 3 week ban, so will miss the ozzie game - shame.
I wonder if Roko will be getting a call from Eddie. Although saying that I thought he was a bit meh against Quinns.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Twenty minutes in, I was starting to become concerned.
I've been critical of Ben Youngs in the past, but he had a terrific game today, and that was a fantastic win, even without Maro Itoje and Billy Vunipola.
What a year!
England played very well for 60 minutes, but I think Eddie will not be happy with the first 20 minutes and we still have a number of players who look like round pegs in square holes.
Courtney, Robshaw and Dillion where all excellent as was Youngs, May and Joseph. Farrell and Ford were ok, as were Brown and yarde (but Yarde simply is not good enough at this level)
Man of the match for me was Eddie Jones for what he must have said at half time.
So well done Eddie - 14 games on the bounce and the 6 nations to look forward to.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
what a game. I echo the Ben Youngs sentiment - I've spent a long time talking about how we're let down by not having a first class scrum half, but he really has improved and is playing very well.
Youngs pass is still erratic, but he box kicking today (and all autumn actually) has been superb and when you have a Jonny May chasing them they look even better!
Nathan Hughes looked a little lost at sea early on, but he came back well in the second half and looked very, very strong - the 8 shirt is well set for England with Billy V, Morgan and Hughes all able to interchange and bring different things to the table.
Yarde was okay, but there are better wingers out there than he.
definitely agree on the Yarde front, but then both Watson and Nowell are injured, so not too concerned seeing as he's our 4th/5th choice!
It was not looking good 20 mins in but the half time talk must have been motivating to say the least.
Hughes looked good in the 2nd half but he is still 3rd choice 8
T'eo looked like he could be a monster at 12. His first hit was fantastic. I would like to see him play with Joseph, it could be centre partnership Eng have been looking for.
Ford did not have a comfortable game, but he redeemed himself late on. He needs to learn to kick though. It could cost tight(er) games if he doesn't.
The last 2 games have shown that the England team have the ability to dig deep and grind out a win which is good to see. They still lack an open side though.
Bring on the 6 nations.
I still see T'eo as an impact player off the bench - I would rather Slade get some game time and can see Faz coming back to 10 with Slade outside him as the second ball player.
EJ doesn't seem too concerned about the lack of a true open side, he seems to prefer two mobile, ball carrying tacklers on the flanks and have the breakdown as the responsibility of everyone. The most natural open side in England isn't even getting game time for Glaws at the moment and the new law variations have neutered the specialist fetcher open side a little bit.
yeh, T'eo has looked very good when he has come on.
Good win for Wasps today given that we were almost playing our third team with the massive number of players we have out.
Howley for the Lions?
As a welsh supporter god help us all
Agreed,
Eddie's obviously got him off the burger and chips diet. He's looking much fitter and England are the better for it.
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It could be worse, Gatland could ask Andy Farrell as well - oh wait!!!.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
well Dylan Hartley has just been shown a red card (correctly so) after about 3 minutes on the pitch.
Eddie Jones, in the crowd, literally facepalmed
Swing arm tackle as the guy is falling down - certaining not intention IMHO. More accidental. Actually surprised it was a red - yellow would have been more normal in this situation.
I doubt eddie will be that disappointed in Hartley to be honest especially as Garces was heavy criticise in Ireland recency so perhaps felt he need to show a bit of love to Leinster.
You of course might have a different view.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H-kvJy7dg9U
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
His personal history doesn't plead for an accident...
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Being sent off after six minutes must be a personal best, though? I thought it didn't look entirely innocent.
It didn't look in anyway innocent.
Wow, so quick to judge. If the guy had stayed on his feet he would have performed a perfectly normal tackle.
But if you are unconvinced, just look at the previous reasons for getting sent off. The last time was swearing at the ref. In fact the majority of his sending offs have been the result of off-the-ball incidents. Which this wasn't. The last time he was banned was May 2015 (against Jamie George funny enough) so hardly recent.
Anywhoo, let's wait to see what the board has to say before we send him off to his band on the basis of your kangaroo court. I am betting 8 weeks.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Wow indeed! Who did the judging? apart from you, that is:When an incident like that occurs, it is useful to look at the player's disciplinary record in order to see the likelyhood of a pure accident. All I said is that he had precedent, including eye gouging.certaining not intention IMHO. More accidental.
I certainly never tackled like that, having been taught that the shoulder is more efficient, as was tackling significantly lower,
If anyone jumped to conclusions here, you did. It was a clear red if only because that's what the ref said and I was brought up to consider his decision as final.
The fact that you bet on 8 weeks shows that you do not even believe it was an accident.
I will unfortunately agree with you with that ban, though, because the panel in its independence (!) will probably make sure it doesn't impact on his international career
Last edited by Saint-Just; 10th December 2016 at 20:08.
I really cannot be arsed with getting into an argument however your view was very clear in your post His personal history doesn't plead for an accident...
As for being taught to tackle like that at school, agreed. However back in the day you were allowed ruck players out with your boots, perform tip tackles, hit players in the air, go straight off your feet when tackling. So a comparison with school is pointless to be honest. Plus when I was playing a choke tackle had a completely different meaning.
Harley, despite all the doomsayers, has been an excellent England captain for his past 14 games, and reference to his "previous history" is a bit of a cheap shot.
He committed a foul and should be punished on that and that alone.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
No cheap shot from me, and I agree he is a valiant captain for the National squad. You suggested initially it was an accident: I believe it wasn't. The history just shows that he has been known to the odd nasty shot in the past. The fact that he has bought himself a behaviour allows him to be England captain but doesn't mean that all is forgotten, and when a decision as to whether it was a genuine accident or possibly a nasty gesture, the history comes into consideration. Same thing happens with your judicial history, so not exactly unfair...
As to the evolution, rugby union has indeed changed a lot but if anything it has become more strict in terms of protecting the players, and I do not believe an outstretched arm "tackle" has anymore reason to be part of the game than it did in my time.
Now of course he should not be punished for anything other than this incident. Whether Eddie Jones choose to add to the sanction to reinforce the point about discipline is another matter.. But even if he doesn't the air is likely to turn blue at the next discussion they have.
Last edited by Saint-Just; 10th December 2016 at 21:58.
I am sure the RFU will he happy to hear your evidence that it was premeditated.
As for an outstretched arm - look at it again and ask yourself whether he would have been penalised if he had hit the guy on his arm? If so you must have played a different form of Rugby to me.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
I am waiting for your evidence 1) that I said it was premeditated and 2) that an outstretched arm touching the arm is going to achieve anything and thus that it is a useful move to make. But since he didn't touch the arm but neck and head it is an illegal dangerous gesture. Once we have cleared this you may ask yourself whether there is a difference between premeditating a foul and committing one in the heat of action. Both can be voluntary yet they are fundamentally different. If you fail to see that then I suppose it explains your first comment that it was purely an accident, barely worthy of a yellow card. But in this case we must indeed have played a different game
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Clearly we did.
oh yes. It was still not an outstretched arm - it was a swinging arm, perfect to dislodge a ball in the tackle when applied correctly.
Last edited by Andyg; 10th December 2016 at 23:30.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
It looked fairly intentional to me (admittedly over slow holiday internet connection) as O'Brien was already on the way down before Hartley had initiated.
He committed a foul and should be punished on that, but it'd foolish to think the citing committee won't look at previous misdemeanours in punishment.
Multi-million pound finance package from HSBC and ongoing talks with a billionaire scaffolding magnate regarding a takeover - funny things are happening in the west country :)
Slow motion makes everything look worse and indeed makes the thing look intentional - that a full speed looks different. The chap he tackled was on the way down, I do not think he was going for the head.
I do think he had a rush of blood, was clearly frustrated at being on the bench and the way the game was going, it looked rash. I do not disagree with the sending off - its a risk when you swing the arm, granted if the guy had stayed upright and he caught him and the ball it probably would of looked ok.
One of these ones that is easy to interpret in different ways. From the photo and the first two angles of the video I could have gone along with accidental. The 3rd angle looked like it was intentional.
So you have to go with the ref as he was close, saw it at normal speed, gets the feeling about it on the pitch from other players and has experience of making those decisions.
Also agree past indiscretions should not count in making the guity or not verdict, but they should be taken into consideration when deciding the punishment if guilty.
6 week ban for Hartley. Seems a little, ahem, generous
Indeed i thought 8 weeks.
Clearly they did not think it was intentional, unlike some "expert" opinion here.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
The link to the decision is here:
http://www.epcrugby.com/news/34283.php#.WFGCo9KLTAU
Offense: Striking (which carries a lower tariff)
Minimum 2 weeks
Mid point 5 weeks
Top end 8 to 52 weeks
Took the mid point: 5 weeks
for poor disciplinary record + 2 weeks
for pleading guilty - 1 week
6 Week Ban
Clearly, they did think it was intentional.Indeed i thought 8 weeks.
Clearly they did not think it was intentional, unlike some "expert" opinion here.
Hence the charge and punishment.
You don't need to be an expert to understand that.
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