Reply With QuoteOfcourse, you can and props to you for being so open about the whole story.
You did the rightful thing and the watch is yours to do as you please.
And, I would be glad to take it off your hands.
Since I have my grail bought I need to sell several of my watches. Maybe even those I never intended to.
So, going through my humble collection I bumped into my CWC RN diver.
I bought it new on Ebay from a private seller.
The only problem that after receiving the watch turned out that some others who also ordered watches from that seller actually never received their watches.
There was even a thread about it on the forum at that time:
http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...ght=silvermans
However, I was one of the few who received my CWC and one of even fewer who kept it!
In fact I was in contact directly to Silvermans at the time and first they apologized because of the situation (one of their employee sold the watches without any permission)
and offered me a replacement piece if I return them the watch.
I agreed to send it back. However, later on they changed their mind and no replacement was offered any more but I was told to go through the Ebay and Paypal process to get reimbursed and send the watch back. In the meantime I provided serial number to them and they provided me a number from Metropolitan Police as they already reported and a case was opened.
All simple except that I purchased the watch from Ebay.uk, but lived in France at that time..
I was in contact with Ebay.uk and even though I provided them the whole story, the number from Police and contact person from Silvermans who could prove the situation from first hand, Ebay
simply refused my request. They wanted a report from my local Police. From France. I imagined to go to the local Police Station with the story of a watch that a villain sold me in the UK and Uk Police is already working on it but I want to involve French Police as well... All these with my poor French.
So, I gave up. Kept the watch and let Silvermans know about my refused request and informed them that it needs to much energy from me, so I rather keep the watch.
Which they were not against after all because I guess they demanded their losses from the seller (who actually kept my money as well.)
So, here we go.
Due to this story I never planned to sell my CWC, but now I thought it would worth to ask for some opinion on this.
Also I know the forum is experiencing all those horror stories of frauds these days and yet here is another one...sorry.
Any advice is much appreciated.
Thanks,
Csaba
PS:
I know threads without picture are terrible, so here is an older one:
Ofcourse, you can and props to you for being so open about the whole story.
You did the rightful thing and the watch is yours to do as you please.
And, I would be glad to take it off your hands.
What a nightmare that all sounds! As Rajen has said, thanks for being so open, and as long as you've disclosed this, there's no reason you couldn't sell it IMO. It's all above board really, it just has a "record" lol.
Unfortunately you do not really have good title to this watch.
To get good title I would suggest asking the original owner to send you a letter stating they have relinquished title.
A subsequent owner could
run into problems if the original owner decided they wanted their property back.
Mitch
That may be the case in law, but I am inclined to agree with Rag and Wayne and we are afterall talking about a watch worth mid hundreds, not thousands. Would anyone really pursue you for such a 'relatively' small value item.Originally Posted by Mitch
I think as Raj put his hand up first he should be given first dibs.
It can start a new life, across the ocean
Thanks for the comments. Or I would even say for the support. You can guess I'm no expert in law. Especially not when a case crosses borders...
In fact Silvermans could claim its their property, however they were absolutely clear with the situation and they never text me afterwards.
Also - again without any knowledge of the law - in fact I purchased the watch on an auction, payed for it and never got my money back.
Out of interest, in a situation like this the buyer who didn't do anything wrong supposed to be the only victim?
What if Silvermans had been reimbursed? And the villain still has my money.
And appreciate any offer, but I'm not trying to make a hidden sales post out of this.
If majority thinks it is legal the watch will appear on SC eventually.
You could use some of these threads as an excellent set of questions in moral philosophy.....
I think it's fine to sell it on mate. And on here.
mike
I am pretty sure you are right, it is unlikely that there would be any claims against this watch down the line. But the fact is you can't rule it out.
There are ways you can buy stolen goods with good title in the UK but this situation isn't one of them.
Mitch
Agreed Mitch, we have all heard stories about people buying cars that turn out to be stolen and then they have them confiscated, so the buyer loses their money and ultimately the car as well.
I think the OP has covered all his bases here and no one seems to be challenging his right to ownership. I say if you want to list it on SC good luck - it will go quickly, haven't seen an automatic CWC on there for quite a while.
Last edited by Wallasey Runner; 6th June 2016 at 22:05.
I also bought one in that scam,I guess if something too good to be true then it isn't .Luckily my watch never arrived so simple claim off e bay.Sounds like you've done everything could.
I would agree with this, it would be common sense to the vast majority of folk. He does need to set out the exact history of the watch in his advert though as legally he is not the owner.
Mitch
I've just noticed after taking another look at the image, it is the automatic with a date. Silverman's don't sell this watch anymore, only the non date version, which has just had a price increase to £649.00.
Shame there isn't an auction facility on SC - a desirable watch.
I agree with Mitch. Silvermans still technically own the watch. And yes, if it ever came to it, and they demanded it back, whoever had it at that point could be out of pocket.
However, since you've had it for years, you dealt honestly with them, and tried to do the right thing at the time, and they clearly aren't too worried about getting it back at this point, it might be worth asking them to relinquish title as Mitch suggested.
For that reason, I don't think selling it on eBay is the way to go. Either you mislead people, or you breach eBay rules.
A Little update on this subject. Due to the suggestion abowe from Mitch, I decided to contact Silvermans to clarify the title of the watch.
Let's see what happens.
If they (Silvermans) have been to the police, reported the dodgy dealing by their member of staff (i.e. theft) they would have recouped the losses via their insurance.
Technically the watch is the property of their insurance company
It has been four years since.
Neither Silvermans or the insurance company is spending sleepless nights thinking about it nor do they give a hoot.
It is ridiculous to suggest that the 'title' is not clear.
This is not a million dollar piece of real estate.
Get real,guys.
Nobody is coming to get this watch.
It is yours and you should have no qualms about ownership.
there has to be a 'statute of limitations' on how long one can claim for stolen goods before being free of title
I think Rajen just nailed it ...
I think the only time any issue could arise is if it ever went back to silvermans for a service/repair. If silvermans claimed on their insurance the watch now technically belongs to the insurance company. In reality it is very remote someone will act on it but there is always the chance. The only way to be certain is to write to silvermans and get a reply from them that they have no claim on the watch nor their insurer. But then again if the price is right I am certain someone on SC will take a chance. It is however very decent of you to flag the issue.
Update:
I've just received a message from Silvermans. Looks like I'm not allowed to sell the watch.
"Dear Mr,
I write further to your email of 8th June regarding a CWC divers watch that you purchased from Ebay in 2012....
....We are not in a position to give you legal advice as to your situation. However, the facts are that the watch that you purchased was not sold by us but was in fact stolen from us. This theft was reported to and investigated by the Metropolitan Police Service and criminal proceedings were brought in the country against the perpetrator. The watch remains the property of Silvermans Ltd and should have been returned to us. Even though you may have bought the watch in good faith, the fact remains that the watch is stolen property and legally the watch belongs to us. This means that if you were to re-sell the watch, you would be selling stolen goods and there are potential consequences for you and for anyone who purchases the watch from you.
As you purchased the watch via Ebay you should speak to Ebay and/or Paypal who have a responsibility to refund your payment as the watch was stolen property made available via their site. I am sure that Ebay, having allowed stolen goods to be advertised and sold through their site, would want to reimburse you for the loss that you have suffered from buying stolen property from their site.
The watch remains our property and should be returned to us.
Kind regards...
"
After all I don't know what Ebay could do after four years? Hmmm
EBay would do ' f**k all" .
Just sell it to Raj, he has full disclosure and is a honourable chap, he also keeps his watches !
I once bought a car which, unbeknown to me, had outstanding finance.
I contacted the finance company who advised me that, as I was unaware of this, I could claim clear title to it. I actually ended up paying them a nominal amount but that was because it was easier for both parties.
I'd be inclined to ask silvermans for details of their insurance company and discus it with them as it's highly unlikely that the insurance company wasn't involved.
I would assume that if indeed you retuned it to silvermans (hypothetically) they would confirm they haven't received compensation via an insurance claim . Otherwise as stated I assume they would need to return the funds they received for their loss to the to their insurance company , or the watch !
Looks like you can't officially sell ?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Err............ I think people need to think clearly here. Knowingly selling stolen goods and knowingly buying stolen goods are criminal offences.
This has not gone well. I think just holding onto the goods after originally informing Silvermans is justifiable and defendable. If that had remained the situation there would have been no problem.
Trying to move it on, knowing the history, is where the problem has arisen.
It is all very unfortunate. eBay seems a long shot but I would try it any way. It seems you will now have to give it up. You need to check with Silvermans to see if they received an insurance payment and if they did the company involved. You could then try contacting them to see if you could work something out.
What you definitely should not do is sell it on at this stage.
Mitch
I'd try and come to some agreement with silvermans or there insurance company,if you send it back it's unlikely they'll resell it ,do they sell pre owned watches
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Agree totally this is the best course of action and then it will be yours and have no history.
Unless I am mistaken, we are not talking about the Kohinoor.
FFS, get a grip on yourselves guys.
Come to an agreement with Silvermans- about what? A four year old watch that hardly costs a fortune? Donyou think they give a flying f$&k? Think they have time for that or that they even care?
Post deleted.
Last edited by GrandS; 9th June 2016 at 01:12.
They've written to the OP, and the correspondence certainly gives the impression that they care.
They've asserted that the OP doesn't own the watch, they do, and asked that it be returned to them.
They also (correctly) pointed out that since they have not agreed to allow the OP to keep it, should he sell it, he would be comiting an offence.
You may consider the matter trivial, (strange that on a forum where the act of owning a fake watch is taken so seriously, a sizeable minority think selling a stolen watch is not a big deal), whether because of the value of the watch, or the OPs lack of knowledge of the theft at the time of his purchase, but this doesn't change the legal situation as it stands now.
Surely the fact that this situation has been flagged up to them and they have stated the watch remains their property and "Should be returned to us", indicates that they DO give a flying **** and in the event that the watch isn't returned they could commence legal proceedings for it's return. It may be a bluff of course and they had an insurance payout - but in this case the watch would belong to the insurance company. Selling it remains a criminal offence.
I have never dealt with Silvermans so don't know how they might react but never underestimate the pettyness of a company's legal department! I presume the valuation would be at the time of theft - so if it was £650 they might think that was a sum worth pursuing. The fact is that they now know of the watch's existence and they have asked for it to be returned.
That was in 2012!
No Raj, you haven't read the thread properly.
They emailed him yesterday to say, and I'm paraphrasing here: "that watch is ours. It was stolen from us. Give it back to us please. Do not sell it, as you will be breaking the law".
You have been more than open regards the history which im sure you would do the same in a sale-I say go for it. Good luck with the sale.
Ofcourse, they will maintain that if they are asked. That is their legal position but doesn't mean they would pursue it.
The OP has behaved admirably, however the owner of the goods has made it clear that the OP doesn't have title, Raj the value of the goods are irrelevant, had it been your watch that had been stolen and sold on you might well think differently, I don't see a quick solution to this, eBay, Silvermans and insurers to juggle with, but well done OP for your honesty.
Just a quick thought to ponder. From what I understand the OP contacted Silvermans initially. Silvermans have done nothing to date legally to try and recover the watch. If Silvermans do nothing within 6 years I presume the statute of limitations will apply? Still better to sort out with Silvermans or Insurers for a cleaner result in my honest opinion. I still believe to the best of my knowledge that selling stolen property knowing that it is stolen means that the person selling it would be treated the same as the person that actually stole it. I don't think anybody wants a handling and receiving conviction :-(
You could try and play hard ball with Silvermans.
You could write to them, by recorded delivery, explaining that you notified them of your possession of their goods sometime ago and they have not attempted to collect them.
Tell them you are giving them say 14 days to collect the watch or you will dispose of it. This would probably satisfy the legal requirements to have it declared as 'uncollected goods' and anyone who subsequently bought the watch would do so with good title.
Alternatively you could just do nothing and if they don't arrange to collect it, wait for six years to pass since you notified Silvermans originally and then they lose the ability to reclaim the watch.
Mitch
Reading their message I have the feeling that even though they say the watch belongs to them and state clearly their stand point as the watch "should be returned", they are not mentionning that any further action would take place from their side.
Without having any further knowledge of law my understanding is:
- Selling their stolen property is illegal. Looks like I need to respect this and keep the watch for now.
However, in my opinion by returning the watch without getting reimbursed would mean I take the (apparently already reimbursed) loss of Silvermans. Frankly that means the thief robbed me not them.
I have to say I don't like this idea. By offering them the collection of their property - OK unlikely to happen, but still - could possibly end up with the above situation.
Staying with your second ption meaning no action is taken fron any side, is exactly the situation we are in since the beginning.
So, nothing has changed in my view, except I received the answer to my original question:
I can't sell the watch.
You never actually own a Patek Philippe CWC watch, you merely look after it for the next Generation
Last edited by witti; 9th June 2016 at 10:44.
This is assuming Silvermans hasn't already been compensated for the loss, by way of insurance or by the original seller by way of fine or costs upon conviction, if they were awarded compensation by the court then surely the matter is closed for them? ( speculation on my part though)
Cheers..
Jase
I think we would all assume that they have recovered the loss. I'd begin there. If they have then it would be a matter of striking a deal with the insurer who would probably be happy to.
This is a pretty clear cut case and those from whom it was stolen still claim title. End of story regardless of time passed or value (the notion that low value theft is OK makes me sick).
Yep. If they've been compensated for their loss I would doubt they have a legal right to the watch. If the watch is recovered they would have to repay the insurance company payout. Correct title would be by the insurance company imo.
Sent from the FBI
This ^^^^^^^
Sad in some ways that you, who has been honest in declaring this, will be the one who loses out. What will happen to the watch? I bet it gets sold by whoever owns it - Silvermans for a profit, the insurers for a loss.
Silvermans would gain so much good PR if they just gave you title to it.
I agree
Considering the relatively low value of this piece it would have been better PR to say "thank you for letting is know but consider it yours now"
In any event I admire your honesty witti
It's likely not Silvermans title to give. If they have been paid out for the claim, v likely, then the insurance company would have to state they have no financial interest or claim on recovered goods. Not at all likely.
The watch will be the property of the insurance company not Silvermans. If the watch is returned to Silvermans it could be regarded as a fraudulent claim by their insurance company.
Sent from the FBI
Speaking as a former police officer, with a good knowledge of the Theft Act, here is how I see it.
You are NOT guilty of receiving stolen goods. For that to be the case, you would have to had purchased the watch, knowing it was stolen.
If you were to sell the watch, to any person who has read this post, both you and he would be guilty of an offence. You, that of selling goods you know to have been stolen, and the purchaser, of buying goods knowing that they have been stolen.
These offences, under the Theft act, are arrestable offences, and offences therefore, if you were ever to be prosecuted, could lead to a large fine or imprisonment.
You keeping the watch, however, restores the status quo. Having bought it in good faith, and after finding out it was stolen, you informed the legal owner. This is now out of your hands. It is for the owner to collect the watch, or have it reurned to them at their expense (a request that you would be within your rights to refuse). It has been suggested that you contact the owner, and give them an ultimatum/time limit for them to collect the watch, and sell it if they are uncooperative. You can't do this. No matter what you do, the watch remains their property until such times as they pass title to you, and until such times that they do, you are responsible for keeping the watch in good condition.
Sorry, but as I understand it, that's the law. It appears that you have a good watch, that you can use and enjoy, but must keep forever!
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