DS Automobiles complete with DS logo on the grill: http://www.dsautomobiles.co.uk/ds-models/new-ds-5
You can see the general listing for DS versus Citroen on the Citroen site: http://www.citroen.co.uk/new-cars-and-vans/ds-range
Interesting branding decision.
Yes they are. Many Citroen dealers are having to split their showrooms or take one of the brands off site.
Simple marketing really. It allows you to operate in 2 different segments of the market. You're able to deliver a product without the connotations the other half of the brand may have with your target consumer.
its a PSA group thing more than a citroen only thing - so its peugeot/citroen's version of doing a lexus/infiniti/acura
I quite like these.
The DS5 looks pretty cool.
Got excited for a few moments when I saw DS
The more I look at the old Citroens, the more I admire them and think that they were so far ahead of their time.
Though they should have partnered with the Germans - with the French designing them and the Germans building them.
That would have been an excellent solution to the rust and other issuesOriginally Posted by vagabond
Sadly I never owned a DS but i did own a later CX which although no where near as stylish retained enough of the quirkiness of the older models to be an interesting car. Probably the most comfortable one Ive owned. It rusted away before my eyes and I just couldn't keep on top of the regular maintenance and fettling required - it wasn't that old either. I cant recall the last time I saw one on the road, they must all have rusted away by now. Shame.
... well, yes perhaps after Citroen equals Lexus' QC... Even French Péages are filled with Audis, Skodas, BMW and Korean stuff. Citroen is not really a common sight. After 2800kms in France my son and I didn't spot a single Cactus!
Menno
Now I might be wrong but those japanese marques Lexus/Acura/Infiniti are the premium brands of builders that already enjoy reputations of high reliability/build quality, completely the opposite of PSA group cars. What are you going to put your money down on, A Lexus or a DS? Which do you think will retain more of it's value and spend the least time at the dealers?
http://www.am-online.com/news/afters...s-warrantywise
Feel free to read.
Why the quality comparison? Mercs sell better than Lexus. Nuff said about that.
It is a proven marketing strategy; customers pay extra extra for up market image.
PSA cars sell. There is a customer base for them and an upmarket line will sell too.
There is a sizable group that does not want to go German or Japanese.
A 'DS' line will undoubtedly recuperate the niche they had upwards of Renault with the old larger Peugeots and Citroens.
Sure it is a totally transparent ploy, but it WORKS!
The original DS is a beauty, however this marketing version will probably depreciate to 1/3rd of its purchase price in a year. May be a good buy then.
Lovely, truly lovely.Got excited for a few moments when I saw DS
My father owned a left hand drive CX diesel estate purchased from Germany. It had a glorious and luxurious ride with plenty of space and carrying capacity but was, as I recall, maintenance heavy. It wouldn't have been much use as a getaway car: Starting from cold required a couple of minutes warm up time for the engine!
I'm sure I read in one of the motor mags that the DS line was never originally destined for the UK. The same article (a couple of years ago now) was saying that DS sales were then (I mean a couple of years ago) already outselling 'normal' equivalent vehicle sales.
Good marketing... take the standard models. Bling them up a bit, change the badge and then chuck on a higher price and joe public will queue up to pay the extra.
I think you may find that is not true in America, Lexus largest market!
It Is a very close thing http://www.forbes.com/sites/dalebuss.../#5cc50fc13134
Nuff said
PSA can only dream of Toyota/Lexus quality, way above six sigma with MTBF's to match
Last edited by adrianw; 11th May 2016 at 13:26.
So???
We are in Europe, where the Japanese luxury badges have pretty much vacated the place.
The middle class and up European pensioners are a large and affluent market for luxury compact/mid size cars, i.e. the DS4 and 5.
The DS range has nothing to do with the original DS. It's a sub brand that was originally a model range within Citroen but for some reason has now become a manufacturer in it's own right. Just wanted to clear that up for all the confused people posting here.
We've had both a DS3 and a DS4 in the family (Citroen ones) and both were faultlessly reliable. I preferred them to all of the Audi's and some of the BMWs I've owned.
Unlikely a German partnership would have saved them from rust. PSA were one of the first manufacturers to properly apply a galvanised dip coating to their shells at assembly in the mid 80s. VWs, Merceds and BMWs of that era are absolute rust buckets. Some german manufacturers still didn't have their act together regarding rust prevention even up until the 2000s. Mk5 Golf GTis and E46 M3s rust like MX5s.
Only in name and appearance, the reason being marketing purpose.
The choice for the 'DS' as brand name is a heritage thing linking to the Citroen models of that name.
As to the level of manufacturing independence it is a Citroen with a joined venture PSA and BMW engine.
All in all totally transparent marketing but the market buys it at a price uplift. Literally.
True, perhaps. But I cannot remember the day I saw a BX or CX. It's been a while. On the other hand, pre mentioned Beemers, VWs from that era are still around. Somehow, galvanizing isn't the only thing that keeps a car on the road.
A few weeks back, my oldest son spotted a Peugeot 205 and he thought it looked funny. I started a misty eyed story about the 205D, the 205GTI and the introduction of the 205 back in 83. I was in Paris around that time and the Peugeot showroom at the Champs d'Elyse was crowded with people! And when I stepped outside, a flock of Citroen Visa Chronos (remember these) raced up and down the Champs from the Arc back to the Roosevelt Circle and back.
Menno
Save for the CX all of these are still running about here in the village. Not just one either although the BX is not omnipresent.
You know that the BX started on a Volvo 343 (DAF 77) platform as the Volvo Tundra? Volvo went for their own 440 design and then it was offered to PSA who did take it.
I am sure that there's a difference between Spanish conditions and -let's say- northern Europe conditions when it comes to preserving a CX/BX.
Still, this thread is about the DS. Only when Citroen shows the negative commentators (like me) wrong, there will be a chance that the DS as a premium brand will survive. It's not enough that a Citroen is a little better than an Audi etc. It needs to be miles better. Up in the ranks with Honda and Toyota.
When Toyota launched Lexus, they already had a rock steady reputation with their Corolla, Carina etc. Lexus added pace, grace and space (oh wait...).
Menno (who's wife is very happy with the CR-V AWD recommended by this very forum!)
You can put any badge on it you like.
It's still a Citroen
It's still French.
Bottom of the pile when it comes to reliability and residuals....
How come whenever I am in southern Spain I see as many Lexus's as I do Mercs, you really have go this wrong.
Back to PSA, they have no chance, not even the French could see them as a premium brand. there is just to much good competition,
Ah yes, people used to say similar things about Skodas and then laugh. They're not laughing now.
I see plenty Lexus around but looking at the UK figures last year they only sold 11k cars compared to around 140k each for merc and BMW.
Ah, facts. Those bothersome details.
And now for some more of hose bothersome facts:
The French car industry has been pushing car evolution since the invention of that.
Despite being innovative and not having an empire as market, the French car industry is going strong whereas the British one has all but gone.
Renault is about the largest car manufacturer and PSA is doing quite ok.
And luxury badge engineering does work. Why do you think the Germans own Bently and RollsRoyce p.e.?! Even that French brand Bugatti!!
So, yes it is transparent luxury badge marketing but that works. On a watch forum of all places that should be understood.....
Tbf they rarely seem to bother you...
Perception is reality my dearest Josh.
Neatly proven by your observation after the sequence of posts here.
Yes there is and that climate applies to all cars, wherever their brand name is based.
According to the urban legends the German made ones should more present. Especially since many used German cars were imported here. Yet they are not.
Thus the survival rate is not just depending on the corrosion prevention as was observed earlier.
Now that observation implied that the rest was the reason they are less durable yet over here it seems to be the reverse.
The old small Citroens are all over the place here and whatever the reason that does prove SOME pudding.
Since the luxury image thing has proven itself too, it stand to reason that 'DS' will work. However much delusion is the base of the success, the continued separation of Citroen seems to underline that it indeed works.
Josh, I don't think the UK is really their target market, like most Luxobarges it's all about fat Americans.
saying that I'm on my sixth Lexus, as boring everyday cars they just do the job and I've never had one break, I get shot of them at about 150k miles
and DS are not.
Those are aimed at the Far East and Europe with production facilities in those two regions.
That Lexus/Infinity/Acura are top notch is beyond doubt but not a factor in this.
Which raises a different point.
A Merc with 150K will be perceived as way less daunting for the used car buyer than a Lexus et al.
Image is an odd thing.
You can see that with current Maseratis and Ferraris too.
Fitted with the exacts same engine, sharing many other bits, even production facilities, a used Maserati is WAY cheaper than the equivalent Ferrari.
And it is that intangible perceived extra which sells anything when marketed properly.
I'm not sure of you're location. I'm in one of the wettest parts of the UK so it's very rare to see an E30, Mk1 or even a Mk2 golf around these parts. Even mk3 golfs and E36 BMWs are a rare sight here now. The scrappage scheme may have more to do with that than anything else.
Here's a photo of my little hobby 205 GTi to give your son a laugh and hopefully bring back some happy memories for you.
I'll admit there was a tiny bit of rust that needed cut out during rebuild.
They are not warn out, I just choose to change then, and I still get 30% of the cost back.
Who mentioned worn out?
I simply observe the image thing; that used car buyers are more wary of buying a Lexus than of a Merc.
How do you know that?
What about other Mk5s and E46s, or is it only the fast versions they didn't bother dipping? :)
Big difference between the conditions of your typical mid-2000s E46 in the UK (pushed-in bumpers, rusting wheelarches, flooded rear lights) and those in California or Australia (still in mint condition). I would say climate is quite a big factor. Another big factor is the high cost of parts and labour, which is why I can see German cars tending to go for scrap earlier in some places.
...but what do I know; I don't even like watches!
I'm not sure of you're location. I'm in one of the wettest parts of the UK so it's very rare to see an E30, Mk1 or even a Mk2 golf around these parts. Even mk3 golfs and E36 BMWs are a rare sight here now. The scrappage scheme may have more to do with that than anything else.
Here's a photo of my little hobby 205 GTi to give your son a laugh and hopefully bring back some happy memories for you.
I'll admit there was a tiny bit of rust that needed cut out during rebuild.
Menno
Lexi go cheaper.
Of course it is. The point was whether it is more detrimental for a Citroen.
Good one that.Another big factor is the high cost of parts and labour, which is why I can see German cars tending to go for scrap earlier in some places.
Yeah, me singling out the fast ones was a bit silly. I was however under the impression that the arches on the M3s were worse because they had a different arch liner that rubbed the paint away causing them to rust inside out (like most cars do). European cars designed and built to live in warmer, drier countries.
Complete tosh
Especially in souther Spain, my nephew has been trying to buy an RX for about a year, currently he is driving an ML because it was much cheaper
As an aside residuals on most cars in the UK are about to go down the toilet when all the rented ones come onto the second hand market, the car storage place are full to the brim.
Last edited by adrianw; 12th May 2016 at 19:05.
No they're not.....maybe that's because they're driving French cars.
French cars (ALL OF THEM) bottom quartile for reliability, customer service and overall satisfaction.
There isn't ONE French car that makes it into the 3rd quartile.
Pretty damning.
Check out Which?
Last edited by Tifa; 12th May 2016 at 22:59.
Still, the French manufacturers are doing quite ok.
When I go to the village in the morning, about half the not 4x4 cars on the parking lot is French branded and there is not a single UK made car on it.
Whether they are any good or not or whether a posh branded version is, is pretty much irrelevant; the marketing WORKS! and 'DS' is most likely a license to print money for PSA.
p.s. there is also usually an old Merc; never ever seen a Lexus yet here.
Yet in the Driver Power 2016 survey Renault had 2 cars in the top 5 for overall customer satisfaction. Tesla were the only manufacturer that bet them. Renault actually had 4 cars in the top 20. They were the only French manufacturer to make the top 20. BMW were the only German manufacturer and only managed 1 model in the top 20.
I'm not convinced about that survey, how can a car that has only been out a couple of months come sixth?
That survey is scored on a number of different things and is only open to cars that are less then 4 or 5 years old i think. Performance of the dealerships etc rate high in the customer satisfaction.
Reliability surveys paint a very different picture, well, slightly different. It's largely dominated by Japanese cars as well.
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