Speedmaster Reduced Cal. 3220 Movement

[sean]

Following on from talk in another thread about general misinformation regarding the movement used in the Speedmaster Reduced, I decided to educate myself (thanks Google!) and post a summary here for anyone else who's interested. I'm specifically interested in this model of Speedy Reduced, the 3510.50.00, with the Omega Cal. 3220 movement.



Of course, the movement appears in numerous variations of the Reduced:



The Cal. 3220 is based on a 'tractor' ETA 2892 movement, which drives an attached Dubois Depraz 2020 chronograph module. The 2892 comes in standard, elabore, top and chronometer grades, with the Speedmaster Reduced using a top grade movement. So no reason it can't keep excellent time.



The ETA 2892, which traces its history and development back to the 1940s, is a reliable and robust movement according to those who know. Nothing to worry about there, it seems; it isn't particularly fragile or prone to breaking, and is straightforward to service. Servicing the DD chrono module, on the other hand... Andrew did a good job in this thread of explaining the servicing aspect of the movement.

Well, the situation is that if the module goes wrong, it's replaced, but not if it doesn't. If not, it's just oiled and put back. Removing it takes four screws and independents are easily capable of servicing the main movement.

From looking into it more closely, the Reduced's movement seems to get a hard time based largely on hearsay, and not the credit it deserves.

For more information on the technical aspects of the movement, these are interesting pieces to read:

The Little Engine that Could-An indepth look at the ETA 2892
ETA 2824 vs 2892
ETA automatic workhorses, the 2824 and 2892

[Padders]

Interesting but please elaborate on the 'general misinformation' that is seen in threads discussing these models. It seems to me that the standard quoted opinion usually tales with what you have stated above, namely that while the modular movements work they work well but when he DD module develops a fault it becomes tricky and occasionally expensive to fix. A major problem is that DD component isn't readily available separately from the core 2892, this was the case even before Swatch tightened up on supply of parts. For an independent not prepared to get their hands dirty and strip the DD (and the majority won't) then the only fix is a full movement replacement which runs to around £400 last time I looked. Not ideal!

[Padders]

Btw I am about to submit a DD chrono Omega to STS for a fettle and fix with a minor chrono issue so i will report back on whether they service or replace the DD. I am hoping service for obvious reasons.

[Geneve]

very interesting, had been toying with one of these.

[Der Amf]

Interesting but please elaborate on the 'general misinformation' that is seen in threads discussing these models. It seems to me that the standard quoted opinion usually tales with what you have stated above, namely that while the modular movements work they work well but when he DD module develops a fault it becomes tricky and occasionally expensive to fix. A major problem is that DD component isn't readily available separately from the core 2892, this was the case even before Swatch tightened up on supply of parts. For an independent not prepared to get their hands dirty and strip the DD (and the majority won't) then the only fix is a full movement replacement which runs to around £400 last time I looked. Not ideal!

Why does Swatch tightening up on their parts impact on the availability of Dubois-Depraz parts? Or have I misunderstood that sentence?

[SSK007]

Am glad i got mine , it hardly gets any wrist time mind you

[SSK007]

[knw101]

one for sale in the SC - how hardy are the movements? what are the costs of servicing?
any pitfalls with these watches?

[Padders]

Why does Swatch tightening up on their parts impact on the availability of Dubois-Depraz parts? Or have I misunderstood that sentence?

I didn't make myself clear. My meaning is that Omega won't supply the chrono module as a separate part and I have yet to find a supplier selling the relevant DD part directly. I am aware that DD aren't part of Swatch Group, if that was your inference.

[Peck]

one for sale in the SC - how hardy are the movements? what are the costs of servicing?
any pitfalls with these watches?

I wrote a short post about my experiences with my reduced and the Omega service department. I got lucky and had the whole movement replaced under warranty...

http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...highlight=peck

[Der Amf]

I didn't make myself clear. My meaning is that Omega won't supply the chrono module as a separate part and I have yet to find a supplier selling the relevant DD part directly. I am aware that DD aren't part of Swatch Group, if that was your inference.

Don't worry, no inference going on here. The fact that DD parts are seemingly only available to the companies that buy the modules answers my question, thank you.

[sean]

Interesting but please elaborate on the 'general misinformation' that is seen in threads discussing these models. It seems to me that the standard quoted opinion usually tales with what you have stated above, namely that while the modular movements work they work well but when he DD module develops a fault it becomes tricky and occasionally expensive to fix.

It looks like you've been reading more accurate accounts of this movement than I previously did, I'm pleased to see.

Unfortunately, I've come across plenty of instances—especially when people compare the Reduced to the Pro—trashing the Reduced's movement; and not even necessarily in comparative terms but in absolute terms. The more in-depth, technical articles, such as the ones I linked to above, do tend to present more a even-handed view, but a lot of people won't have the patience to wade through them. It's the short one- or two-line posts on forums of people sharing their (unfounded?) opinions that are typically more downbeat and critical of the 3220.

You're right about the punchy servicing cost if the DD module goes belly-up. But that's around the price of an Omega service, and if one is prepared to go to Omega anyway then it's a non-issue. I think the concern about the DD module breaking is overplayed anyway; if it was a likely occurrence then the high service/replacement cost would be a big consideration, but as I said in another post, the instances I've come across of first-hand accounts of DD module problems are few and far between.

I was just trying to balance out what I saw as an unfair perception regarding the Cal. 3220. and I appreciate not everyone will perceive the movement in that way. :)

[walkerwek1958]

I`ve serviced one of these movements in a TAG. The movement was running badly so I gave it a full strip-down and re-oil with a new mainspring/barrel assembly. That got the movement running fine. The chronograph module was performing OK, with no issues so I ducked out of stripping it down, having heard so many stories of how difficult they are to reassemble. I made it clear to the customer what I`d done, he was happy, and I was satisfied with the performance of the watch. Cost was based on servicing a 2892 because basically that's all I`d done.

I`d question the statement Andrew made regarding lubrication to the chrono module. It is possible to re-oil some of the pivots but it isn`t really best practice because the dried up old oil is still present. Also, there's no way to lubricate the friction points where the chrono activating mechanism contacts moving parts. Don`t be misled into thinking here's a way of 'lubricating' the chrono mechanism effectively without stripping it because there isn`t. Adding further lubricant sparingly to the accessible points is acceptable in my opinion but it doesn`t represent complete re-oiling.....I think it's important to clarify this.

The DD module really is a separate item and there's no reason why it shouldn`t be supplied fully overhauled on an exchange basis, but to my knowledge no-one does this. A totally unsatisfactory situation in my view. The watch I worked on was a TAG, I questioned the LVMH materials guy (who I get along fine with) and he informed me that the chrono module wasn`t supplied separately. I don`t know what Omega do, it's possible they supply the chrono module to accredited repairers.

I own a 3510:50 myself and the movement will need servicing in the next 12 months. I`m pondering whether to strip the chrono down and rely on being able to reassemble it, but I'm mput off by the various anecdotes regarding the difficulty. One guy claimed it took 32 attempts to put the top bridge back on......I`m amazed he kept count! There's also the worry about losing parts, because nothing's supplied separately. I`ve had another highly regarded repairer describe the job as 'not too bad'.......but he's a genuine 'watch god' and tutor at the BHI. If I take mine apart it'll go to him if I can`t reassemble it!

When buying a watch with this movement I think it's worth paying a premium for one that's got good service history with the manufacturer or an accredited repairer; I`m sure there are guys out there who can service these properly but I think in most cases the chrono won`t get stripped. There's nothing wrong with the design or the concept, it's the service situation that's less than ideal. Given that they're not straightforward to service, many of the watches out there haven`t been serviced properly and some examples are 20 years old. Buy with care, you could easily end up paying a few £100 to get the watch sorted properly.

Paul

[TimeOut]

There's an 8 part series here about the Dubois Depraz module if anyone's interested..

[walkerwek1958]

Didn`t know this was available..........I`ll watch the module stripdown with great interest.

Paul

[andrew]

I've lost the ability to quote for some reason, but Paul's point about re-oiling is taken. The ETA chart for the 2894 chrono module (which is not the same as the D-D modules, being one of ETA's own and performing the same sort of function) has oiling points, but it's not clear if this is first first-time assembly or subsequent re-assembly.

Additionally there is a labour saving in not having to service the chrono module if it's fine; you service the basic movement and fit the pre-assembled chrono module and that's that. If the chrono is functioning OK, the service charge is less than it would be for an integrated chrono. Paul will correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding is that there's a core charge for a new module; if you need a new one, you send the broken one back in first, otherwise it costs a bomb.

Whether or not authorised service agents pass this saving onto customers is a separate matter. My guess is that they won't, and they'll just collect the surplus :)

Sometimes I think repeating information without checking is like gaining a level in a role-playing game. "I've read about the module breaking down or something, and now I've repeated it somewhere else so that makes me a level 3 WIS". Better to have come to a more robust conclusion whereby you might have asked why, if this is such a duff movement solution, aren't boards littered with stories of failures, and why there isn't a healthy market for used but working chrono modules on eBay or whatever.

As an aside, I also don't know why ETA developed its own chrono module when it (SwatchCo) fitted a DD module to the Speedmaster Reduced. The ETA 2984 would have been better for that watch as the subdials are closer together, and the smaller size of the Reduced case would have suited it. However Omega persevered with an outsourced module whilst selling its own 2894 to third parties.

[ktmog6uk]

I've been very tempted to buy a speedy reduced, but reading Pauls thoughts above i'm still not sure if i should!

[Padders]

I've lost the ability to quote for some reason, but Paul's point about re-oiling is taken. The ETA chart for the 2894 chrono module (which is not the same as the D-D modules, being one of ETA's own and performing the same sort of function) has oiling points, but it's not clear if this is first first-time assembly or subsequent re-assembly.

Additionally there is a labour saving in not having to service the chrono module if it's fine; you service the basic movement and fit the pre-assembled chrono module and that's that. If the chrono is functioning OK, the service charge is less than it would be for an integrated chrono. Paul will correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding is that there's a core charge for a new module; if you need a new one, you send the broken one back in first, otherwise it costs a bomb.

Whether or not authorised service agents pass this saving onto customers is a separate matter. My guess is that they won't, and they'll just collect the surplus :)

Sometimes I think repeating information without checking is like gaining a level in a role-playing game. "I've read about the module breaking down or something, and now I've repeated it somewhere else so that makes me a level 3 WIS". Better to have come to a more robust conclusion whereby you might have asked why, if this is such a duff movement solution, aren't boards littered with stories of failures, and why there isn't a healthy market for used but working chrono modules on eBay or whatever.

As an aside, I also don't know why ETA developed its own chrono module when it (SwatchCo) fitted a DD module to the Speedmaster Reduced. The ETA 2984 would have been better for that watch as the subdials are closer together, and the smaller size of the Reduced case would have suited it. However Omega persevered with an outsourced module whilst selling its own 2894 to third parties.

All good points Andrew but to offer at least one data point, I have an Omega with a faulty DD chrono module hence my post above about STS so while they are seemingly generally reliable, it isn't a myth that they develop faults. I have done my own first hand research on how easy/cheap the fix will be so don't assume all the negativity is recycled nonsense.

[nickyboyo]

I have had one for years, and even after some pretty arduous wearing, it has never skipped a beat.

[walkerwek1958]

I`d forgotten about the ETA module and DD being different. I looked into this a while ago and the designs are very similar.

Hard to judge how reliable the DD chrono module is; I think the reputation isn`t helped by the fact that they can be costly to fix. Contrast this with a Valjoux 7750; I`ve no idea how likely they are to give trouble but I do know that they're straightforward to fix because parts are readily available and the movement's fairly easy to work on.

It's very easy for information to gather momentum on the internet, creating a distorted impression. Getting reliable data on the incidence of failure of any item is nigh-on impossible. Whether it's cars, washing machines or watches, the manufacturers know where the problems lie but they certainly don`t share the info!

Paul

[walkerwek1958]

I've been very tempted to buy a speedy reduced, but reading Pauls thoughts above i'm still not sure if i should!

The Valjoux-based 39mm Speedys are a better proposition IMO, but you don`t get the same 'look' as the 3510:50.

Paul

[PickleB]

Was anyone else confused by the caption of Ofrei’s picture in the OP’s post that says “A few Omega caliber 3220 watches listed by model number” and then immediately adds “Cal 1141-1143”?

I’m used to the idea that the 1140, 1141 and 1143 movements were used in the early Speedmaster Reduced watches and that later models have the 3220, but it wasn’t until I read this thread that I looked into them a bit more. In the History of the Omega Speedmaster Chuck Maddox notes the introduction of the c.3220 in 2000 saying ”chronograph functions and decorated movement (ex-1143)”, so I now assume that the 3220 is part of the same series.

Can I ask a few questions while we have PaulW and other knowledgeable members interested in this thread, please? Firstly, am I correct in that assumption? Secondly, can the c.3220 replace the c.1140/1/3? Finally, was there a c.1142?

[walkerwek1958]

Couldn`t answer this without digging the info out. Certainly the Speedy reduced 3510.50 has used two different Omega movement numbers which looked essentially the same to me, can`t remember what they were! My 2004 model is a 3220A, just had the back off to regulate it.........I keep putting off giving it a proper service!

Paul

[PickleB]

I may have found the answer to my main question above (link). Cousins list four downloadable documents for the c.3220:

The first is a list of interchangeable parts. The second is the sheets for the c.1140 (also available as a separate download) combined as one document with that for the c.3220A. The link for c.3220 downloads a document headed Calibre 3220 A. The final one (3220,3220A) only lists one version, 'Version A'.

The sheet for the c.3220A says "Derived calibres 1140, 1141, 1143, 1138". So, yes, I believe that they are all very much related with the later c.3220 having 2 extra jewels, a power reserve of 40h (the c.1140 says 42h) and a different lift angle, 51° whereas the c.1140 says 53°.

If it's of interest, the sheets include some interesting diagrams and instructions for assembly and disassembly.

I'm left to suppose that the c.1142, if there ever was one, never made it into production.

[snowman]

I think the main problem with the reduced is that people new to Omegas often make the mistake of thinking they've found a bargain Moon watch when they've actually found a reduced.

When the disappointment cuts in and how hard is related, but there's nothing much wrong with the watch on its own terms.

M

[boris9]

Very interesting, thanks. I love mine, which I recently acquired. Great size and great value.
Good to know that the main movement is a straightforward service as my Chrono is working fine and shouldn't see much use.

[Artistmike]

The Omega Dynamic Chrono also uses the Omegas cal. 1138, based on the ETA 2890-A2 movement with a Dubois-Depraz 2030 module chronograph and there never seems to be any adverse criticism of that one, other than the same problem of servicing having to be carried out by Omega, rather than an Independent, but as an owner I suppose I've just resigned myself to that, as being part of owning one.

Having said that, mine was serviced just a year or so ago by STS who made a lovely job of it. The reason for servicing being that the chrono pushers were getting a bit sticky but the watch itself was running fine and this was the first service since the late nineteen-nineties when it was made. The module went off to Dubois Depraz but it took about the same sort of time as the usual STS service.

I think that the one aspect of ownership of the DD modular Omega that's not often mentioned is the somewhat weird backlash that makes hacking the watch an almost impossible thing to do at times, as when the watch is started, the second-hand starts immediately but the minute hand can take up to a minute to start, most frustrating if you like your watch absolutely accurate but probably treated as just one of those idiosyncrasies that makes these watches fun and interesting.....

Some interesting info here on the Dubois Depraz side of things... http://www.ablogtowatch.com/inside-d...vement-module/

[Padders]

The Omega Dynamic Chrono also uses the Omegas cal. 1138, based on the ETA 2890-A2 movement with a Dubois-Depraz 2030 module chronograph and there never seems to be any adverse criticism of that one, other than the same problem of servicing having to be carried out by Omega, rather than an Independent, but as an owner I suppose I've just resigned myself to that, as being part of owning one.

Having said that, mine was serviced just a year or so ago by STS who made a lovely job of it. The reason for servicing being that the chrono pushers were getting a bit sticky but the watch itself was running fine and this was the first service since the late nineteen-nineties when it was made. The module went off to Dubois Depraz but it took about the same sort of time as the usual STS service.

I think that the one aspect of ownership of the DD modular Omega that's not often mentioned is the somewhat weird backlash that makes hacking the watch an almost impossible thing to do at times, as when the watch is started, the second-hand starts immediately but the minute hand can take up to a minute to start, most frustrating if you like your watch absolutely accurate but probably treated as just one of those idiosyncrasies that makes these watches fun and interesting.....

Some interesting info here on the Dubois Depraz side of things... http://www.ablogtowatch.com/inside-d...vement-module/

Interesting and reassuring to hear. The watch I was referring to earlier with the chrono issue which is off to STS next week is a 2 register Dynamic chrono like yours. I wonder if they add an additional fee for the outsourcing of the DD part.

[sean]

I think that the one aspect of ownership of the DD modular Omega that's not often mentioned is the somewhat weird backlash that makes hacking the watch an almost impossible thing to do at times, as when the watch is started, the second-hand starts immediately but the minute hand can take up to a minute to start, most frustrating if you like your watch absolutely accurate but probably treated as just one of those idiosyncrasies that makes these watches fun and interesting.....

I've also noticed that! A funny little idiosyncrasy that could actually be make-or-break to some owners.

[Artistmike]

I've also noticed that! A funny little idiosyncrasy that could actually be make-or-break to some owners.

Yes and I've known owners thinking the movement needed repair because of that.... which could get a bit expensive, especially as it's not something that can be 'fixed'..

[Artistmike]

I wonder if they add an additional fee for the outsourcing of the DD part.

Well it was just the standard cost of a Chronograph Service when I had mine done....

[Horlogerie France]

I always tear down the DD module during the servicing, it's quite simple, very well made, and I have a bunch of spares in case any parts are needed. Having serviced many of these over the years, I have never had to replace any parts in the module, the quality is equal or better than ETA.

[Artistmike]

I always tear down the DD module during the servicing, it's quite simple, very well made, and I have a bunch of spares in case any parts are needed. Having serviced many of these over the years, I have never had to replace any parts in the module, the quality is equal or better than ETA.

It's nice to see that an Independent is happy to tackle these and succeeding. Let's face it the DD modules are used in so many brands, some at very high level, so the quality should be there. It's just that not everyone is aware of the part that DD play in the watch industry as they are not making their own pieces.

[JamesG]

As a Speedy Reduced owner this is all very interesting, so thanks for posting.

By pure coincidence I spotted this last night, which shows a service including a strip down of the DD module

http://watchguy.co.uk/service-omega-...th-eta-2890-2/

[andrew]

I think that the one aspect of ownership of the DD modular Omega that's not often mentioned is the somewhat weird backlash that makes hacking the watch an almost impossible thing to do at times, as when the watch is started, the second-hand starts immediately but the minute hand can take up to a minute to start, most frustrating if you like your watch absolutely accurate but probably treated as just one of those idiosyncrasies that makes these watches fun and interesting.....

Some interesting info here on the Dubois Depraz side of things... http://www.ablogtowatch.com/inside-d...vement-module/

Thanks for the link. It looks like the D-D module is a little better finished than ETA's own, which is rather workaday if the one teardown I've seen is anything to go by (admittedly only one data point)

There are several disassemblies of various D-D modules on the web, but only one of the 2894, and that looked a bit destructive. It appears that D-D modules are more serviceable in the field than the ETA equivalent that's part of the 2894.

By the by I've noticed that the ETA 2894 can also take ages for the minute hand to catch up after hacking, up to a minute. However, a mischievous observer might note that an Omega Dynamic owner could put this down to character, but a TAG-Heuer is usually extended no such courtesy ;).

[walkerwek1958]

Agreed, the backlash issue and delay with the minute hand is a real pain in the arse. From a user point of view I find this the one weakness with the movement.

Paul

[watkins101]

I need to get my speedie reduced serviced in the next 6 months or so , can anyone recommend a decent independent who wont want to take me to the cleaners or butcher the case.

[walkerwek1958]

I need to get my speedie reduced serviced in the next 6 months or so , can anyone recommend a decent independent who wont want to take me to the cleaners or butcher the case.

If I pluck up the courage to strip mine down completely (chrono module) I'll gladly service yours in a few months time if you wish. Unless I can become proficient at servicing the chrono module I`m reluctant to take these on; I don`t really like just servicing the movement and doing a very limited amount of relubrication on the chrono, it's not the way I like to work.

I`m seeing a drop in amplitude when the chrono's running on mine; it didn`t do that 3 years ago and that's a sign that it needs some TLC, but it's not top of my priorities at the moment.

Paul

[Artistmike]

However, a mischievous observer might note that an Omega Dynamic owner could put this down to character, but a TAG-Heuer is usually extended no such courtesy ;).

If you're an Omega Dynamic chronograph owner you get used to putting your choice down to 'character' to be honest. They are unfashionably small, hack weirdly, still have the minute markings for telephone box use and have totally the wrong name as they bear no relationship to the rest of the Dynamic range. I'm sure that the Tag-Heuer owners are considered very fashionable and hip and wouldn't worry in the slightest, yet us Dynamic owners find that it's considered just another indication of our weird proclivities.

[PickleB]

If you're an Omega Dynamic chronograph owner you get used to putting your choice down to 'character' to be honest. They are unfashionably small, hack weirdly, still have the minute markings for telephone box use and have totally the wrong name as they bear no relationship to the rest of the Dynamic range. I'm sure that the Tag-Heuer owners are considered very fashionable and hip and wouldn't worry in the slightest, yet us Dynamic owners find that it's considered just another indication of our weird proclivities.

I've always doubted that the 3, 6, 9 minute markers were for telephone calls. Yes, they could be used for that, but how many people would be wearing chronographs in those days. If that were the true reason, I'd expect to see something on more mundane watches.

My preference was that those intervals would make calculations involving time easier, especially 6 minutes which is one tenth of an hour. A little searching on the net found plenty of others on TZ-UK and elsewhere with the same idea, but nothing very solid to back it up. But, rather than divert the OP's thread, I've moved my discussion to a new thread: Chronograph 3, 6, 9 and 4, 8, 12 minute marks.

[TimeOut]

I always tear down the DD module during the servicing, it's quite simple, very well made, and I have a bunch of spares in case any parts are needed. Having serviced many of these over the years, I have never had to replace any parts in the module, the quality is equal or better than ETA.

Nice work!

[walkerwek1958]

Horlogerie France is one of that rare breed, a genuine watch god

Even as a mere mortal, I'm definitely gonna strip mine down this summer...........if all goes well I`ll award myself a gold star

I`ve learned from experience what not to get involved with; I have a tendency to avoid anything new/difficult and stick to what I know thesedays.

Ideally, I`d like a spare DD module to practice on and use as a source of spares, it's always nice to know you can put your hand on screws or springs if something goes AWOL.

Paul

[Lorex]

I've enjoyed reading this thread, it's been very educational. It would seem that it's a good watch in it's own right, but is always going to be over shadowed by it's bigger brother. <insert obligatory> "Oh, so you couldn't afford a Professional" type comment ;-)

[Padders]

I've enjoyed reading this thread, it's been very educational. It would seem that it's a good watch in it's own right, but is always going to be over shadowed by it's bigger brother. <insert obligatory> "Oh, so you couldn't afford a Professional" type comment ;-)

And ironically I for one will never love the big brother Pro because it is sooo 19th century what with the lack of date and auto winding. Against my better judgement I now own a Pro (and a Broad Arrow which I love) but it has some big prejudices to overcome to make me respect it. In watch terms, NASA took a retard to space.

[andrew]

I've enjoyed reading this thread, it's been very educational. It would seem that it's a good watch in it's own right, but is always going to be over shadowed by it's bigger brother. <insert obligatory> "Oh, so you couldn't afford a Professional" type comment ;-)

To which the obvious riposte is 'oh, couldn't afford a Daytona'. It doesn't stop at the Speedy Pro, sadly!

[shinn8]

Dear all,

I've learnt a lot from this thread, and I really appreciate your insightful sharing.

While I already own one Speedy with movement 1861, I'm considering to acquire an Omega Speedy reduced without date function, for its smaller size.

Is the movement 3220 considered extremely difficult to be serviced by independent watchmaker?

If so, I would certainly give up acquiring one, because the Omega maintenance services are quite costly to me.