Am I unreasonable to expect a new strap on a £35k watch?

[Cinch]

But it's actually a 50k+ watch

[Raffe]

Sure nobody ever pays list price for this kind of watches, just as you never pay list price for a car.

Yes, I negotiated a good deal, but that doesn't mean I am going to wear this on a used strap. I am changing all my straps when I buy a used watch and then once a year. No way will I wear a watch on a strap which an unknown quantity of people have tried on.

If you look on eBay you will find many ex-display Lange and Patek straps being offered, most ADs will exchange them as a rule when the watch is sold, without the need for asking for it.

[pinpull]

For a genuine comparison of attitudes, a recent purchase of circa £9k brought forth a custom strap with a retail value of £300+ with no hesitation whatsoever ☺

Perhaps nothing to do with attitudes, more with margins.

If your £9k purchase was at full retail price then the margin enjoyed by the AD may allow for a small discount in kind. A watch already heavily discounted has eroded that margin quite considerably and may well preclude the offer of anything else.

[chris56]

But it's actually a 50k+ watch

Agreed it is a £54K watch on which the op has negotiated a whacking £19K discount which one assumes was because they had it in stock. One also assumes that the op negotiated the dealer down to this price on this basis and knew it was not coming direct from the factory. The deal was presumably agreed and then after this the op asked for a new strap which looks like the straw that broke the camel's back.

[Der Amf]

Lots of people will be very happy for your 35k, only give to someone who's not going to hack you off while they take it from you

[chris56]

Sure nobody ever pays list price for this kind of watches, just as you never pay list price for a car.

Yes, I negotiated a good deal, but that doesn't mean I am going to wear this on a used strap. I am changing all my straps when I buy a used watch and then once a year. No way will I wear a watch on a strap which an unknown quantity of people have tried on.

So you knew it was a display model and negotiated on this basis. You therefore must have known that you wanted the strap changing and should have included this in the negotiation. To comeback after the deal has been agreed and ask for further discount in the form of a new strap is bad form and unreasonable.

[kaiserphoenix]

I bought a brand new Lange recently here is what i got:

- Discount.

- Chocolates, tea, coffee etc.

- 3 Brand new Straps.

- Leather business card holder.

- Lange Maple Pen.

- 2 day tour of Dresden, including factory tour and presentation, all expenses paid of course including flights.

Needless to say, I'm glad you walked away.

[chris56]

I bought a brand new Lange recently here is what i got:

- Discount.

- Chocolates, tea, coffee etc.

- 3 Brand new Straps.

- Leather business card holder.

- Lange Maple Pen.

- 2 day tour of their factory all expenses paid to Dresden.

Needless to say, I'm glad you walked away.

That is fine but if your discount was 15% then your 3 brand new straps, business card holder, maple pen and 2 day tour of the factory are small potatoes. My guess would be that your discount was nowhere near 35% or in this case £19K that the op negotiated.

[Tony-GB]

If the watch was a good deal, then good for you. There isn't a single member here who wouldn't expect to snare a good deal when buying anything.

I don't give a toss if one wrist or a hundred touched that strap- for 35K I would have expected it to have been changed anyway. You shouldn't even have had to think about it, let alone ask.

[kaiserphoenix]

For some reason I can't quote the Chris's comment, my watch was considerably cheaper than the Op's probably around 50% of the value, the discount I got was 23%.

[Kingstepper]

The AD made a poor business decision but I don't think a strap that has been tried on is a problem. Your objection seems to be for hygiene reasons that unknown people have tried it on.

Where/how do you buy your clothes - trousers for example?

[murkeywaters]

Just take a picture in like this and say, how do I know this chap hasn't tried on that watch or does £35K also buy me a skin disease -

[SuperC]

Yes, I negotiated a good deal, but that doesn't mean I am going to wear this on a used strap.

Was it soiled, discoloured, smelly, creased, etc.? It's stupid that the manager refused, he lost a good sale. Then again, maybe he was ticked off about your negotiation skills 😉?

[robert75]

Not unreasonable but presumably with the discount on offer the salesperson probably didn't feel the need to negotiate or offer anything as he probably had someone else in line waiting to buy.

[Snowdon]

If a new strap was that important that you, you should have included that in the terms when negotiating the price. Given the huge discount from list price negotiated, it is unreasonable to assume a new strap would be forthcoming.

All, in my humble opinion.

[Normunds]

to answer a question - yes, I think OP was unreasonable to expect that dealer will throw in a new strap to seal a deal that was already sealed.

and yes, I think dealer could be bit more flexible too, but I wasn't there and don't know their reasoning.

[groyn]

The AD made a poor business decision but I don't think a strap that has been tried on is a problem. Your objection seems to be for hygiene reasons that unknown people have tried it on.

Where/how do you buy your clothes - trousers for example?

Or shoes. And I mean real shoes, not shoes = straps. I think wanting a new strap is reasonable enough, but I don't think hygiene is an issue in real terms (ie transmission rates of "contagion"), given how we try and buy clothes and shoes. However, I do understand just the thought of the hygiene issue could be sufficiently offputting for some - Athlete's foot, anyone?

[groyn]

Double post

[Eamon]

Interesting. I'd always assumed watches above a certain level were presented with "display straps"

[JasonM]

Having thought about it, I have changed my mind, my first thought was if you're getting a good deal on a ex display watch it's really as it comes, however, if I was spending THIRTY FIVE THOUSAND pounds on a watch it woukd absolutely be on my terms and if any aspect of the deal wasn't right then I wouldn't compromise.

[Raffe]

Suppose we can agree that the forum is divided. For me this is important and I would never buy the watch with a used strap.

The negotiated price, which by the way was nowhere close to the discounts which some of you are fantasising about, left plenty of profit for them to pay for a £100-150 dealer's price for a strap, but the manager refused. As much as that was his right, it was my right to walk away.

I will not have a problem to find the watch for the same or lower price elsewhere. Chrono24 has a few grey ones on offer for considerably less. After this experience with an AD, I might as well go for the saving of buying a grey one.

[murkeywaters]

if I was spending THIRTY FIVE THOUSAND pounds on a watch it woukd absolutely be on my terms and if any aspect of the deal wasn't right then I wouldn't compromise.

It's all relative, 35K to you or I is a HUGE amount of money but to the dealer he probably has customers who don't bat an eyelid about the price and gives him what he's asking, in which case he rolls out the red carpet and pops a cork for them - and a new strap..

35K for a watch is a LOT of money to me but there is enough people out there who see this figure as chicken feed, thats who the dealer wants through his door.

[Raffe]

It's all relative, 35K to you or I is a HUGE amount of money but to the dealer he probably has customers who don't bat an eyelid about the price and gives him what he's asking, in which case he rolls out the red carpet and pops a cork for them - and a new strap..

35K for a watch is a LOT of money to me but there is enough people out there who see this figure as chicken feed, thats who the dealer wants through his door.

Sure, he wants those customers - pity they don't exist. Fact is, even those with tons of money negotiate hard. Years ago I worked in private banking and I can tell you those who have the most negotiate the most.

Besides, these watches are not limited or difficult to source for an AD. It is a buyers market, every customer who walks away is a lost profit.

[Deeez Nuuutz]

I'd expect every part of the watch to be new for that sort of money. The only exception the my rule would be if I was buying a vintage piece but that's obvious.

Sod the AD. If I were you I'd now source from a reputable grey dealer and save the difference.

[murkeywaters]

Sure, he wants those customers - pity they don't exist. Fact is, even those with tons of money negotiate hard. Years ago I worked in private banking and I can tell you those who have the most negotiate the most.

Besides, these watches are not limited or difficult to source for an AD. It is a buyers market, every customer who walks away is a lost profit.

Maybe, but there is a level of wealth out there that see themselves above negotiation, the wealthy that do negotiate normally do so just for fun not because they need that extra % off..

In your case I found it strange the dealer didnt agree to a new strap just on customer service with hope of repeat purchases, did you hit him hard on the negotiating?

[draftsmann]

In my experience (coming up 30 years working with some very wealthy clients), many of them can be very canny over the smallest costs. One or two of them reminded me in my early career that they had to watch the pennies when they started building their businesses and never got out of the habit. I'm sure there are some wealthy people who spend money like water but I reckon they won't have worked for it.

[bitfield]

Having just done a quick check on C24, a new/unworn one is listed as £45K and change from another German seller, which suggests you’ve managed to save almost £20K on the retail price of €70,100!

Maybe he had a voucher?

[silly]

I seriously can't believe that so many of you are suggesting that a new strap on top of discount is unreasonable when you are spending that kind of money. Look from whatever point you want but its a second hand watch as its been sitting in AD display and been handled heck knows by how many people... also no one pays list price on this particular and similar models and if you do then the AD is laughing all the way to the bank... you can get them for less all over the place, even from the boutique in Frankfurt airport..its a buyers market especially for such a niche brand...

On high end watches 30% off is a norm these days anyway....

It should have been the most exciting day for Raffe and it has turned pretty sour...

Must love the forum police...

[Jdh1]

Interesting arguements. A lot of people are hung up on the fact that it's a lot of money for a watch. So let's imagine it's a £50k Porsche that has been negotiated down to £35k. The deal is done and then just before leaving the buyer asks for another £500 worth of extras. The salesman refuses and says he's gone as far as he can. That's the same situation. Maybe the sellers stance is more understandable when looked at like that?

[PJ S]

Mind you, how dirty could someone about to buy a £35k watch possibly be?

Filthy rich?

[Raffe]

Interesting arguements. A lot of people are hung up on the fact that it's a lot of money for a watch. So let's imagine it's a £50k Porsche that has been negotiated down to £35k. The deal is done and then just before leaving the buyer asks for another £500 worth of extras. The salesman refuses and says he's gone as far as he can. That's the same situation. Maybe the sellers stance is more understandable when looked at like that?

1. The Porsche dealer has a 15-20% margin, the Lange AD has 50-60%. Just to put the discount in context (which is about the same amount as the price increases of the last three years).
2. I never asked for an additional extra, just for a £500 wear and tear part to be replaced (to stick with the car analogy).

[stix]

At this price point, deal or not, a new strap should have been included anyway. An absurd situation and for some reason I am not surprised. A good salesman should have factored in the strap when doing the negotiations on the watch, that way everything is covered and everyone is happy. If you had done a few deals surely in hindsight you would think that asking for a new/replacement strap would be par for the course from your customers, and would have factored it in.

[jegger]

Sounds as if the deal was done, the manger's only involvement was being asked if a strap could be included in a sale.

I can slightly understand a refusal if the manager was doing the deal and both parties came to their redlines, and hard negotiation but in this case, sounds as if the manager just said "the computer says no".

Anyway you look at this, to lose a sale for the sake of £100-£200 is crazy.

[stevecross]

35 Grand, I would want a damn site more than a new strap for that kind of money.

[TimeOut]

In a moment of madness I tried this on in Beaverbrookes, Cribbs Causeway. Asked if it would be supplied on a fresh strap and got a resounding "no". Full sticker price on interest free too.



If I buy a second hand watch from a forum for example, I always swap the strap straight away for one of mine or wash it if it's a NATO. Bracelets come off the watch and get dunked in TFR and scrubbed like mad.

Couldn't wear someone else's sweaty strap they've had on after or during wiping their ars£ or other unmentionable activities. Errugh.

[KavKav]

IMHO the OP is entirely correct and at that price point I would have reacted the same. Raffe would not have had that problem with Patek Philippe and I am very surprised that he had this problem with L&S unless the watch was massively discounted which is pretty unlikely. We all know the huge profit margin added to high-end straps and for a L&S AD to let a customer walk over such a relatively small issue is pretty surprising!

[Gyp]

I loathe straps that are wrinkled/buckled at a hole that's not the one I use to do them up, so if the strap didn't look new then if not be happy with it.

Regards the skin contact and DNA, perhaps I'm being a little naïve about the manufacturing process. Wouldn't there be more handling by the person working and stitching the leather than is ever likely to occur from people trying the watch on?

Perhaps high-end straps are manufactured in a clean room environment by workers in gloves or entirely by machine, but that's not the vision in my head.

Edit: having watched the Hadley Roma "how it's made" video on YouTube, there's lots of manual handling and the white gloves don't go on until right at the end of the process.

On a different note, I'm wondering also if contrary to expectations, leather straps are more hygienic and less likely to transmit infection than bracelets or rubber etc.

In the same way that wooden chopping boards can draw fluids away from the surface and limit the risk of cross contamination compared with plastic boards where any fluids will sit on the surface and can be passed in.

[andy tims]

Was the strap faded, or subject to any discernible wear? If not then you might be considered a bit cheeky but enough to lose a sale over - I'd suggest not.

[DB9yeti]

I bought a brand new Lange recently here is what i got:

- Discount.

- Chocolates, tea, coffee etc.

- 3 Brand new Straps.

- Leather business card holder.

- Lange Maple Pen.

- 2 day tour of Dresden, including factory tour and presentation, all expenses paid of course including flights.

I bought a new Lange recently, I got:

The watch. At 35% off.

It was however unworn and the strap is new. However, the strap really isn't that good (nor are PP, VC etc). It's fine, but I'll be getting a custom strap for it, entirely bespoke at under £200.

[Slamdoor]

If you are getting a hefty discount, as seems to be the case, the dealer should have labelled it 'bought as seen' or otherwise aceeded to the customers wishes.

[JeremyO]

to answer a question - yes, I think OP was unreasonable to expect that dealer will throw in a new strap to seal a deal that was already sealed.

and yes, I think dealer could be bit more flexible too, but I wasn't there and don't know their reasoning.

If the deal was struck at £35k then I would not have expected a further sweetener by way of a new strap.

Were it me I would have tried to negotiate a new strap before striking the deal.

[Kingstepper]

At this price point, deal or not, a new strap should have been included anyway. An absurd situation and for some reason I am not surprised. A good salesman should have factored in the strap when doing the negotiations on the watch, that way everything is covered and everyone is happy. If you had done a few deals surely in hindsight you would think that asking for a new/replacement strap would be par for the course from your customers, and would have factored it in.

Who are we to decide who is a 'good salesman', that is an issue for his employers to decide. He is working for them (obviously) not us and if they don't want OP's custom so be it. Ultimately his job is to maximise profit not give customers large discounts/freebies.

[paskinner]

The problem is that we don't know how the salesman saw all this; he may have felt that they had given substantial concessions, reached a mutually satisfactory deal and that the buyer then started demanding yet more concessions.
We just can't know. I have one very successful friend who deals in high-end audio who often tells me of customers pushing things just too far. At some point the dealer has to draw a line in the sand. My dealer friend believes that getting a reputation for attracting customers mainly on price is a bad long-term model. And he is very successful.
Dealers know their own business and most are far from stupid. They are in-it to make a profit, not subsidise over-demanding buyers.
That may not fit this case, who knows? We'l never know how this salesman saw things.But stupid dealers don't stay in business. Neither do dealers who give away too much of their profit . They still have to pay their bills.
In the same way, if Lange dealers are offering 35% discounts plus freebies, all they do is devalue their own product. It's 'worth' 35% less than retail. How much would you now pay for a Lange?

[Carlton-Browne]

Raffe

I think you were right to take the view that you have done. If the AD is going to nickle and dime when there's the prospect of a large value sale on the counter, it doesn't augur well for when you may have to take the watch back with an issue. Most people have experienced how they've become the invisible man the day after they've bought a car and had to take it back almost instantly for some attention (my father once bought a new car several years ago and, in the end, finally got satisfaction from the dealer when he borrowed somebody - and their truck with a 40ft trailer - and parked across their forecourt for half a day).

I'd also be interested to know if you're thinking of dropping ALS an email or does the small matter of discount mean that they won't really take an interest? I seem to remember you having a Datograph - did that come from the same AD or elsewhere?

BTW - the more I think about it this is a great opportunity to change tack slightly and get the Zeitwerk with the slate grey dial.

[nunya]

The problem is that we don't know how the salesman saw all this; he may have felt that they had given substantial concessions, reached a mutually satisfactory deal and that the buyer then started demanding yet more concessions.
We just can't know. I have one very successful friend who deals in high-end audio who often tells me of customers pushing things just too far. At some point the dealer has to draw a line in the sand. My dealer friend believes that getting a reputation for attracting customers mainly on price is a bad long-term model. And he is very successful.
Dealers know their own business and most are far from stupid. They are in-it to make a profit, not subsidise over-demanding buyers.
That may not fit this case, who knows? We'l never know how this salesman saw things.But stupid dealers don't stay in business. Neither do dealers who give away too much of their profit . They still have to pay their bills.
In the same way, if Lange dealers are offering 35% discounts plus freebies, all they do is devalue their own product. It's 'worth' 35% less than retail. How much would you now pay for a Lange?

True in some cases, but not in others, depends on the nature of your business, as you mentioned audio, Richer Sounds for example, granted not high end, but more than acceptable for most, and all done on price, oh and great customer service.

[snowman]

I guess the question can be viewed two ways :

1) Am I unreasonable to expect a new strap on a £35k watch? - Probably not.
2) Am I unreasonable to expect a new strap on a £50k watch, reduced to £35K as it's an ex-demo watch? - Well, that's a bit different... Could the shopkeeper have simply have put a new strap on it and charged £50k for it? Probably, so you're getting a hefty saving (at face value) for it sitting in the window and being tried on a few times. Quibbling over a new strap might seem a little unreasonable to the manager in that case and he might have figured that if you're that picky, you might be back in a week or two to complain about the microscopic scratches you didn't notice in the shop.

He might equally have realised that by sticking on a £500 strap (even at retail price) he could return the watch to 'as new' condition and sell it for much closer to the full list price, when the OP asked for the strap. If that was the case, the OP may have slightly shot himself in the foot by pressing the point.

Obviously, I wasn't there, so I don't know the full exchange, but I think the ex-demo car analogy is not unreasonable. You're getting a big saving for a tiny amount of wear and tear and usage. If you want absolutely brand new, you have to expect to pay much closer to list price...

M.

[Mr Stoat]

DB9Yeti wrote (quote not working) "It was however unworn and the strap is new. However, the strap really isn't that good (nor are PP, VC etc). It's fine, but I'll be getting a custom strap for it, entirely bespoke at under £200."

That is exactly what I'd do (and have done on a few watches), for that level of watch I'm not that bothered about the "factory branded black croc but we all know it's a re-badged Hirsch" strap and would rather spend a little extra and get a custom made strap that really sets the watch off to look it's best and is tailored to fit my wrist perfectly.

Given the discount achieved on the Zeitwerk then for me the ex-display strap wouldn't have been a deal breaker, would have been nice to have a got a new strap so I can understand where Raffe is coming from, but ultimately the factory strap would end up in the box anyway. That said, if Raffe can get the same watch with a new strap from another AD for the same price then might as well go elsewhere.

Raffe, I'm very jealous, the Zeitwerk is on my list of dream watches that I'll probably never get but hope one day that I will ... when you eventually get one it would be great to see a write up and photos please

[paskinner]

True in some cases, but not in others, depends on the nature of your business, as you mentioned audio, Richer Sounds for example, granted not high end, but more than acceptable for most, and all done on price, oh and great customer service.

Indeed; that's right. Bill Gates said that he always went for volume rather than high prices. But could that work with luxury goods? is the volume high enough to sustain such a model? Back to the audio model, the dealer I mentioned sells very pricey record players (still a market for them). He gets lots of requests for big discounts..and he refuses. Instead he offers ultra-high service, factory special mods, very fast repairs and stuff like that. The poorer stuff he gets in part ex he just sells to other dealers, and only keeps the best stock to sell himself.
As a model it works well for him. He seems to make more profit than the discounters, and gets 'better' customers. Back to the luxury world of watches, I don't want to buy products that are heavily discounted. They are discounted because the brand is over-priced to start with. It always shows in the level of depreciation. Many people ( ie me) are happy to pay full AD prices on a Rolex because that's the normal price for the majority of customers. And it shows in the slow depreciation.
If watches are discounted, we all want a discount..we'd be paying over the odds otherwise. But in 'brand' terms these goods are weak. Being a pessimist, I tend to the view that there are no free lunches.

[steptoe]

Just the thought of all the tramps coming in off the street and being allowed to try on a £35K watch is enough to put me off.


If you're that delicate and sensitive why not simply ask for a watch that's not been used in the window display ?

[steptoe]

Just the thought of all the tramps coming in off the street and being allowed to try on a £35K watch is enough to put me off.


If you're that delicate and sensitive why not simply ask for a watch that's not been used in the window display and pay full price ?

- - - Updated - - -

Just the thought of all the tramps and lepers coming in off the street and being allowed to try on a £35K watch is enough to put me off.


If you're that delicate and sensitive why not simply ask for a watch that's not been used in the window display and pay full price ?