Reply With QuoteDont worry stooo, he missed post #21.
Originally Posted by PhilipK
I did not. I must have missed the notice requesting that I fully read before I contribute. But I am glad you spent the time to highlight the earlier, presumably duplicate, remarks (honestly I have not looked back at them despite you pointing them out and do not intend to). Thanks also for posting in blue, hopefully my rainbow of gratitude will inspire the remainder of your day.
Dont worry stooo, he missed post #21.
The one address given leads to a rent it by the sq ft serviced office building. The other address in Llandudno is a small semi on what might be a private road.Conwy, that famous town in Llancashire ?
Well get onto local trading standards as well.
Those hands just look wrong. The hour, minute and second hands look like they're covered in limescale and the lume does not match whereas the GMT hand centre is still nice and polished.
I would phone your credit card up saying you think you may be scammed if you return the wach and see what they suggest ?
Sorry to hear this.
My opinion is that its defo a re-lume. And only a blind person would suggest it wasn't. Especially 12 and 9. Rolex would never had let that watch out of the company in that state.
For more information please see http://www.network54.com/Forum/539585
Last edited by Andyg; 3rd February 2016 at 15:09.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
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Last edited by Euan Begbie; 10th February 2016 at 21:33.
You can send the watch back with a courier then contact you CC company and arrange a chargeback. You've not answered my question about the receipt and card chit, do you have one?
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Last edited by Euan Begbie; 10th February 2016 at 21:32.
yeah,
you should have a PDQ card machine reciept and some form of A4 paper receipt. what doe the PDQ receipt say on the top?
Your CC card company will be on your side, have you told them that the dealer isnt sticking to the CCR?
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Last edited by Euan Begbie; 10th February 2016 at 21:32.
maybe send me a pm m8.
your pdq chit isnt a bill of sale you should have been given a reciept for the card transaction, but an invoice from this company with the details of what you were buying.
E.G. when you go to a restaurant and ask for the bill, they bring you a bill, you give them your card and you get the transaction receipt back from the machine and the invoice from the restaurant with what you bought and their VAT number etc.
Then there must be more we don't know about, because this is an open and shut case. It is always an open and shut case until 14 days have passed since you received the goods.
The only issue is that the dealer is selling second hand goods possibly, the regs for this are then slightly more in their favour, dependant on how the watch was listed, thats why we need to see a receipt.
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Last edited by Euan Begbie; 10th February 2016 at 21:32.
"6 grand."
That's where my eyes settled.
I do hope you get satisfaction.
H
So being 100% sure you were getting your money back wouldn't be enough? Hmm, going to be a tough one this :)
Do you have as email trail with him assuring you the dial had NOT been relumed? If so, I'd want to visit a recognised expert who can assure it you it has (Mike Wood, Heywood Milton etc.).
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Last edited by Euan Begbie; 10th February 2016 at 21:31.
6 grand with that dial and no B&Ps, your 'avin a Giraffe!
Re: fitting a replacement dial and hands..
If UKSW have gone totally silent, your only option is to go through the court. If you don't fancy that then you're throwing good money after bad trying to turn it into anything more than a £4K snotter.
Can I ask a stupid question? You mentioned that you were sent pictures of the watch before purchase, were they pictures of the watch you now have and if they were how did you not spot the appalling splodged on lume?
A good question has been asked above, do you have any evidence of the seller stating that the dial hadn't been touched or lumed? If you do then you have evidence of it being mid-sold which would strengthen a claim for CC charge back stating that you have been misled and now doubt how genuine the watch actually is especially as the seller is refusing to refund you.
Why are people still banging on about who said what with regard to the lume or condition of the watch.? It's the 14 days that are important. It doesn't matter if the watch is better than he described.
6 grand - dear oh dear! If nothing else comes of this the message is loud and clear avoid UK WATCH SPECIALISTS at all costs!!
It doesn't matter. Consumer Contracts Regulations apply regardless, as long as the seller is not a private individual (clearly not), and the goods aren't sold at an auction.
If this was a private sale, OP would need to fall back on the Consumer Rights Act, and dispute that the goods were not as described, but that's not the case here.
Exactly.
unfortunately it does matter, dependant on how secondhand goods were listed in the first place. Hence the CC company saying it's not a clear cut case. OP I also cant find the watch on their site either..
My best guess would be Tipex, heaven knows it could be limescale.
My opinion is that complaining to the credit card company is a good route. They are large and WSUK will do a lot,of their business with customers using credit cards.
I would only return the watch once WSUK have agreed to return the watch and told you how and where to return it which is information that should have appeared on the website in the first place. Worth having the lawyer telling them you wish to return it and then asking how to do it.
OK, one of us is clearly wrong. Please explain how selling used goods can remove a buyers right to cancel a contract.
Hehe, I noticed that too when I was perusing the details at Companies House. I am amazed that anyone would register a company in that name! They certainly changed the company name pretty quickly.
Given the attitude displayed thus far from the dealer in his communications with you (all on the telephone I'm presuming thus no audit trail?) I think its definitely time to put something in writing and ideally from a solicitor?
If it's a private seller and it's listed for sale in a vague manner. If the OP can show a receipt that's from the company, he's got them and you are correct. I'm feeling that they've possibly put the pdq transaction through on a machine that doest correspond to the business, hence asking to see what he's actually got.
You are right totally with a business that plays by the rules.
I think Ghosty may be confusing a claim relating to the Sale Of Goods Act (where condition, claims made etc may be relevant) with a claim under the distance selling regulations where, in this case, only the time elapsed is of issue.
The seller must know he has sold a dodgy watch. Any Rolex that is straight sells quickly and he would have no trouble selling it on if it was straight. I would use the small claims court which is easy to do. Hopefully a lawyers letter would do it but you could could warn him that you will use the small claims court if he refuses to accept a return. I would include the cost of the lawyer's letter in the claim too.
I notice that the OP purchased using a credit card and people are suggesting using a chargeback.
However, the OP does not need to use a chargeback[1]. Instead he could (and perhaps should) use a Section 75 claim under the Consumer Credit Act. (To the best of my knowledge this has not been superseded by the Consumer Rights Act). S75 of the Consumer Credit Act makes the credit car issuer jointly liable for any faults or errors with the vendor. Thus it is possible to claim from the credit card company exactly as one would claim from the vendor.
Should the case go to the County Court, then S75 will definitely be relevant. In that case, both the credit card company and the vendor should jointly be listed as defendants.
However, if the vendor won't issue a refund then it is only fair to give the credit card company a chance to sort out the refund before heading for court.
Footnote:-
1: A chargeback is a contractual facility required by Visa and (I think) Mastercard of their issuing banks and merchants. This differs from Section 75 statutory protection.
- What was the result of that consultation?
- Have you sent the letter yet (the clock is ticking on the 14 day period in which you can return the watch)?
- What are you really after here? A refund? A repaired watch? Venting your spleen?
- Despite the distance involved, as there is so much money at stake, have you considered returning the watch in person?
Sale of Goods Act was replaced with the consumer rights act - which treats second and first hand goods as the same in regards to consumer rights - but as others have said, it's irrelevant anyway if this if rejected within 14 days and the seller is in breach of various consumer laws including the consumer contracts regulations act and their laughable "no refunds".
If we take what the OP has said at face value (and why shouldn't we) the seller hasn't got a leg to stand on from any angle - either distance selling, more general consumer rights or contractual law (including the unfair contracts act).
I'd be reporting them to all and sundry regardless of outcome.
No offence, but that's nonsense.
You're now saying it isn't to do with whether or not the item is used (quite rightly, because used goods are clearly not exempt from the right to cancel under consumer contracts regulations), but whether or not this was a private sale.
This is clearly a trader. They have a website (or websites). A trading name. Stock. It makes not one lick of difference what machine they put the transaction through on, or even how the watch was listed for sale. In fact, even if this trader had listed the item as a private sale somewhere else entirely, and it had never been sold through his website, he'd be committing an offence by falsely representing himself as a private seller (see the Unfair Commercial Practices Directive). A trader is a trader if they are a trader, regardless of whether or not they tell you that they are, and anyone buying anything they have not been able to inspect in person (with certain specific exceptions, none of which apply here) DOES have the right to cancel a contract. You can't choose not to be a trader when it suits you.
And I have absolutely no idea what a vague listing has to do with anything.
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...s-guidance.pdf
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...42/oft1008.pdf
I'm not saying you are but if people are confused you have 14 days to cancel and then 14 days to return. You don't have to cancel AND return in 14 days - which of course has to be the case otherwise you wouldn't have 14 days to inspect... so the period is actually as long as 28 days as long as you cancel within the 14.
Yes, you are absolutely correct - I meant the 14 days within which he can cancel. Given the amount of money involved, and the reluctance of the seller to obey the law, I personally would want to give that notice in writing, using a tracked or signed-for method, so that there is no chance of the seller claiming that they were not aware. I would not be happy relying on an email, as the OP previously mentioned, as after the 14 days are up the seller could easily say "Email. What email?"
I'm also curious as to what the OP's real lawyer (as opposed to a bunch of blokes on the internet, many of whom are quoting long out-of-date legislation) has suggested!
Absolutely right. Cancellation of the contract takes place when you tell them you're cancelling it, and it's this you have 14 days to do, not the return itself. Unfortunately the seller also has 14 days to issue a refund from when they receive the returned item (or proof of shipping if they dispute that it has been returned), so the longer you delay, the longer potentially until you get your money back.
Sorry i'm typing whilst doing other stuff, I'm assuming that we're talking about it definitely being used/ second hand being a mk I 1675, hence not stating that, and then how it's being sold on to the OP from that point i.e. Private sale or not. here's what we know;
You cant buy through the website if you look, you can only enquire, thats fishy.
Cant find the page on said site showing the watch, despite others showing as sold.
The OP is stating that his CC company is saying a charge back is not 100% - thats weird, in 15 years of retail i've never heard of a CC company not pressing a charge back, i've received ridiculous ones.
No receipt to date bar a PDQ chit, which we also dont know what company took that money.
Spit balling, the trader must have a work around previously removing the SGA and DSR regs and now the new CCR and CRA. Unless said trader is crazy.
I did first say use the CCR regs to return, unless theres more here than meets the eye, thats all I can think of.
He's not been provided a method of return or return address.
I'd be doing some screen shots of the website as it's worded now and saving any copies of the original advert.
I bought a used breitling from a shop which I found out a couple of weeks later needed a full service the shop refused to pay, so I contacted citizens advice and trading standards they both said a second hand watch is a grey area and wouldn't get involved and basically said I should sort it out with the shop myself, not as black and white as I thought.
In the end breitling serviced it themselves as it was a breitling ad I bought it from.
Just my humble opinion , take it up as suggested with the credit card company and the reasons why etc etc original devalued because of xx xx and it's not as described or as expected .
Also to back this up you'll need I would imagine or it would greatly help something like the following .
Take the watch to a renowned expert , we are very lucky to have a few on the Forum Mike Wood , Haywood or take the watch to RSC and ask to speak to the Service Manager explaining the situation and ask for a little help if possible please please and the situation you are in .
Don't lie down let the Credit Card Company take up the fight as that's why you used them for in the first place I would imagine as for the extra protection ,they can and will do in certain situations suspend payment and what you owe until this is resolved .
I looked and couldn't find the watch on the site. So, it's either been removed, not usual practice as many others are there but shown as 'sold' or it was never advertised on the site. The second option seems likely as the seller contacted the buyer about the watch.
But why should he go to all that trouble and expense when the law already says that he is entitled to return for a full refund?
And if the seller is refusing to discharge his legal obligations under the Consumer Contracts Regulations, what makes you think that he would take any notice of any expert's evaluation. Equally, the OP's Credit Card company should assist him (under S75) because he has a legal right to return/refund, regardless of any expert testimony.
Because I would imagine it would help ( greatly help )as be in no doubt he will throw something into the hat and say are you some kind of expert or authority on Rolex and Dials .
If it was so easy and straightforward we wouldn't be having this debate would we ?
The watch would've been returned and refund would have been issued , instead no communication and radio silence .
This retailer must have been told by now that this discussion is taking place. As his name is turning to muck, you'd think he would want to resolve this with the OP as amicably as possible.
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