Reply With QuoteYes, I have the same email. At least they are trying to do something.
I got this email from Cousins.
Via British Watch and Clockmakers Guild
Most of us despair at some of Cousin's trading practices, but they are at least fighting our corner:
Industry Action Fund - Progress Report
View this email in your browser
E-mail: iaf@bwcmg.org
Mobile: +44 (0)7831 538975
Industry Action Fund - Progress Report
from Steve Domb, Project Manager, BWCMG Industry Action Fund
Our Industry is faced with anti-competitive practices, and it is very difficult to be entirely open about the actions we are taking to combat these, without potentially handing an advantage to those who are intent on enforcing them by whatever means at their disposal. For this reason, you will have to forgive us for leaving out some of the details, but we have been working hard over the last few months, and are now in a position to report back.
From the Guild„s perspective, the best solution would be for the Swiss to come to the realisation for themselves that they have made a monumentally bad business decision in refusing to openly supply spare parts, and of their own volition reverse this policy before they do any more damage to their Brands. The issue is, therefore, how to demonstrate to them what this damage is.
A couple of months ago, at the request of the IAF, Christian Dannemann wrote a very telling piece on his internet blog (http://watchguy.co.uk/swatch-group-parts-policy), in which he suggested consumers should avoid buying Swatch Group watches in future, and invited his readers to write directly to Swatch telling them so. The response of his readers was immediate, and the effect was very interesting. Within a few days, Christian was contacted by Swatch, and invited to Switzerland to “discuss” matters. A couple of weeks later, Christian was on a plane to Bienne, and whilst nothing new came from the discussions, at least a line of communications was opened.
When he came back, Christian decided to set up a Customer survey to get the views of enthusiasts and collectors (http://watchguy.co.uk/watchguy-surve...watch-industry), with the intention of sending the results to the Swiss in order to reinforce just how much they are damaging themselves. The results made for very interesting reading (http://watchguy.co.uk/swiss-watch-cu...veythe-results) with the Independent Service Sector consistently outperforming the Manufacturers, and with over 98% of respondents wanting open supply of spare parts. Christian has duly forwarded the results to the Swiss Federation, and is waiting for their response. The survey was also reported in the trade press (http://www.watchpro.com/18458-watch-...parts-stoppage), which will not have gone unnoticed. But what can we do if the Swiss are foolish enough to ignore the requirements of their customers? Like all situations where a change of approach is required of someone, there are two choices. Either they change their approach for themselves, or they are made to change.
A fight is best avoided, but sometimes avoidance isn‟t possible, and it is always best to be prepared. The Guild believes that by refusing open supply of spares, the Swiss companies are in breach of a range of Laws and trade agreements. The IAF team have been looking closely at the options available, and the processes needed to have the Law enforced. Once again, it would be indiscrete to be public with too much detail, but we are pleased to release the following announcement:-
“A delegation from the Industry Action Fund (IAF) of the British Watch and Clock Makers’ Guild, met at the beginning of November with Senior Officials from the Department of Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) to discuss the Anti-Competitive practices being imposed by the Swiss Watch Industry, and how these are impacting both the Consumer, and the Independent Repair Trade.
Before the meeting, IAF Project Manager, Steve Domb, had provided BIS with a briefing paper on the background to the situation, and the issues that urgently need addressing. This was supported at the meeting with a more comprehensive information pack.
Steve reports: “When we arrived for the meeting, it was clear that the officials had studied the briefing and were well prepared. We knew within the first minute of the meeting starting that we had a sympathetic and knowledgeable audience, because one of our hosts opened proceedings by removing from his wrist a vintage Swiss watch. He then told us about his recent experience of getting an exorbitant quote for service from the manufacturer, and subsequently having the work done at an Independent Watchmaker for about one eighth of the price.”
The meeting worked methodically through all the issues relating to parts supply, barriers to entry created by the manufacturers requirements for specific tooling for each brand, and by product specific training requirements. The IAF highlighted the impact on consumers, and presented the results of Christian Dannemann’s recent survey. The IAF team also went to great lengths to highlight the true size of the market for watches in the UK (over £1 billion annually), the current actions in the EU Court, and the worldwide nature of the parts embargo being imposed.
The team from BIS provided the IAF with very helpful advice on the next steps needed, and have put us in contact with the Competitions and Markets Authority so that we can discuss the matter with them. The IAF will report again on progress in due course.”
There are those amongst us who have little faith in Politicians, or that anyone who has the power to enforce the Law has any interest in doing so on our behalf. However, if you want Laws enacted to support the consumer, and existing Laws enforced to ensure our trade can best serve their customers, then these are the people and organisations you must engage with. The fact of the matter is that Politicians can only provide support to a cause when they have the issues efficiently laid out before them, and a timely opportunity to raise them. The enforcers of the Law have carefully established processes which the aggrieved must follow if the Law is to be applied.
There is evidence to be gathered, documentation to be prepared, and meetings to be held. Please believe that we are working hard on all of these. Keep supporting the IAF, and encourage others to do so. Please also make an effort to work with everyone else in the Industry to present a united front.
I will report again soon.
Steve Domb
Project Manager
The British Watch and Clock Makers‟ Guild Industry Action Fund
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Cousins Material House · Unit J, Chesham Close · Romford, Essex RM7 7PJ · United Kingdom
Yes, I have the same email. At least they are trying to do something.
It's just a matter of time...
I think this topic needs some clarity...
I've read opposing stories on the cost of becoming certified, and reports of the cost of parts supplied direct being cheaper [certainly is with accessories].
Could it be Cousins protecting their own margin, pretending to stand up for a few hobbyist / small independents in the hope of dictating the strategy of a global business...?
Last edited by 2kilo; 24th November 2015 at 21:27.
Some people prefer to pay three times the price, wait three times as long and prefer their watches to be repaired in Switzerland.Originally Posted by 2kilo
It is the strategy of a Global business trying to dictate to every country with their own fully trained watch repairers in order to protect their margins !
I am sorry but I disagree, as you say some people prefer and it is choice. The point is that independents still can obtain spares from brands without having to charge the brand service costs. Spare parts are cheaper from brands than cousins by some margin I add. If you want the the guy down the market to have a crack at fitting a battery then sure no problems that's your choice just don't expect him to be able to buy the seals when he has no training or understanding of how to do it correctly.
I worked in Switzerland for Omega Jaeger Lecoultre and Blancpain.
It has been the policy of these and other Companies for many years to ensure that as many watches as possible go back to CH for servicing in order to keep Swiss unemployment low.
Trouble is they are short of repairers, hence the long waiting times and high costs.
I know for a fact that Omega, Breitling and J LeC have farmed out repairs in CH to independents there. So don't expect your watch to have necessarily been serviced In-House there. I know because they have farmed out repairs to myself and my Swiss colleagues.
Breitling used to farm out repairs to me here in the UK until the Swiss put a stop to it.
I'd like to know which of the major Companies supplies parts to Independents cheaper than Cousins or even at all.
I am not talking about hobbyists or untrained watch repairers. There are plenty of them even in Switzerland !
I am talking about qualified watch repairers, myself included, with years of experience who can offer a service equal to and far cheaper than Swiss counterparts.
Our stumbling block is the witholding of parts necessary for completion of repairs by the Swiss which in effect amounts to a Restraint of Trade practice and is totally unfair competition.
Singer Sewing Machines once tried the same practice which was finally judged to be illegal !!
Do you want unemployment to rise further in this country ?
Do we want to rely on Chinese copies to continue our trade ?
Britain has long been a country of equality.
Support UK business for goodness sake !!
The Swiss are ruthless in the support of theirs !!
Last edited by Webwatchmaker; 25th November 2015 at 10:37.
oops sorry double post...
Last edited by 2kilo; 25th November 2015 at 11:09.
- Cousins [wholesalers] price on Omega straps / buckles is £100+ the Boutique / Southampton price...?
- In a recent thread, a newly certified outfit claimed cheaper parts prices direct...?
- They also stated becoming certified was not a problem /expensive...?
- If you are qualified why not become certified...?
- Its not too much to expect some formal qualification / checks before being supplied...?
- Parts are also withheld from fakers and fraken makers...?
- People have been given years of notice to prepare...?
- Opens up competition for other movement makers...?
- It is an expensive luxury item in most cases, cost is expected...?
- Are the Swiss meant to produce vintage parts for the next 100yrs...?
- Britain is where individuals have "equal" freedom to succeed [or fail] using their own endeavour...?
- Do the Swiss owe people a job here...?
- Sorry I don't believe redundant watch repairers will effect the unemployment figures greatly...?
To me it looks like "natural selection" - the fittest survive...?
To: 2kilo
Don't Cousins have a price promise ?
The rest of your remarks miss the important point !
Please tell what is the important point I've missed...?
Never tried the price promise, if they do match a price I still would rather not use them...
That attitudes like yours reduce the number of potential watchmakers in the Uk and encourage restraint of trade practices.
Thereby increasing costs and limiting fair competition.
What is a 'fraken maker' ?
Certification with Rolex, JleC is virtually impossible.
How does it open competition for other movement makers ?
So you expect repairs to be expensive ? That's quite narrow minded.
Britons don't have equal freedom if the restraint of trade laws are not applied.
The Swiss probably do owe lots of jobs here.
The 'vintage parts' point I will ignore.
The current Swiss practices are not just affecting the UK but are applied worldwide.
Do you also have a gripe against Cousins ?
Last edited by Webwatchmaker; 25th November 2015 at 14:00.
Brendan is correct. If I choose to send him a watch he should be able to get the spare parts to repair it. End of story. It's not like he's some back street cowboy.
Same with my car, if I choose and independent mechanic to service it he is entitled to get OEM parts from the main dealer. I seem to remember there was a big stink about this a few years ago when some brands thought they could restrict parts supply to their franchised network only.
Thanks aldfort !
The British Restraint of trade laws are not being applied to watchmaking services.
They are with motors and other high volume employs.
A few years ago there was a female MEP entrusted with it.
I spoke to her at that time whilst investigating with Cousins.
She basically said it wasn't a priority.
In other words she couldn't be bothered because we are few.
Nothing has happened since, til now.
Same with my car, if I choose and independent mechanic to service it he is entitled to get OEM parts from the main dealer. I seem to remember there was a big stink about this a few years ago when some brands thought they could restrict parts supply to their franchised network only.[/QUOTE]
Was one of those brands the Swatch Smart car by any chance ?
My attitude will not effect the luxury market one way or another, or reduce watchmaker apprenticeships...
Any competent, committed, and sensible watchmaker will survive - good luck to them...
This 'debate' in general is fast turning me into a non-WIS...
It only highlights a lack of endeavour, and promotes small minded whinging that the world is changing...
Good luck taking on the Swiss.....they're a law to themselves, do pretty much as they like, and are happy to ignore what they don't like.....
Much like a lot of western countries I bet...
There could be many outcomes to this situation, a resurgence in non swiss manufacturing for one could be very positive...
There is a problem with your argument. By the time you discover you are wrong it will be too late to do anything. Today's luxury watch is tomorrows vintage piece. Traditionally we have always had to turn to Indies as the luxury makers seem to lose interest. They would rather sell you a new watch.
Not really, so you expect a manufacturer to still supply parts 50yrs on, for a tiny group of enthusiasts, and shoulder the costs involved...? I don't think the Swiss promised a watch or job for life... Its pure negative speculation that the indies will be wiped out...
I`ve had spats with 2kilo in the past over this, no point in reiterating my views or trying to change his opinion. His views are somewhat blinkered but there's no point arguing. Who services his watches when they need attention?..........I know at least one (probably 2) who wouldn`t be willing to help!
if I wasn`t in the position I`m in (able to service/maintain my own extensive collection using my stash of parts) there's no way I could continue to own and maintain properly a collection of over 20 watches. In the old days I took them to a local repairer and he charged a very fair price (he wasn`t so good, but that's immaterial) but that option would now no longer exist because he can`t get parts.
I agree wholeheartedly with Webwatchmaker (Brenden); there are folks like him who are being prevented from plying their trade owing to this decision. For me, it curtails a hobby/interest that I`m passionate about, for others it'll seriously affect their income.
I respect Jammt79's views although we don`t agree on a few points; he's in the trade and accredited so he's in a different position.
It's all too easy for folks like 2kilo to come out with his 'survival of the fittest' crap. So how about me?......at my stage of life (57) it makes no sense to commit £15-£20K to meet the Swatch Group/Omega accreditation criteria. I`d be fixing watches full-time for many years to make it worthwhile; given the fact that I DON'T want a full-time job, plus recent health issues, it's a non-starter so I guess (in 2kilo's parlance) natural selection should rightly take it's course .
For what it's worth, I think there will always be ways and means of getting Omega/Swatch parts from overseas. This will be costly and inconvenient, but I don`t think Swatch will be able to stop third party supply unless they police things rigorously. The ideal scenario would be a successful legal challenge in one of the key countries where they value their sales presence; it only takes that to happen in one area and the genie's out of the lamp.
Personally, I`m hedging my bets and buying up parts at the moment...........I`ll give up working on watches when I decide, not Swatch Group.
Paul
I'd be happy to go to an independent who used good quality third-party parts. And I expect third-party parts will become readily available to satisfy demand.
I've serviced plenty of 50 year old watches and the vast majority were not owned by enthusiasts like us. They tended to be heirlooms passed down to the current owner that had stopped working and the owner wanted to get it going again for sentimental reasons. If you told the owner that it would cost £300+ to get it working again it would go back in the drawer, but when the cost is a fraction of this...
You'd be surprised at just how many parts for these obscure old calibres that Cousins still supply, including obsolete ETA calibres, but I guess the ETA parts will dry up once the current stock is sold...
There are already plenty of generic movement parts available for Rolex and I expect the supply of generic ETA movement parts to become more readily available. The problems arise when you need a new Omega crown for example and the factory won't supply it, even though its a relatively simple job to fit and certainly doesn't require tens of thousands worth of tooling to do.
Hi Paul nice to talk to you as ever…
So you are truly the minority that aspects a multinational to prop up their hobby…?
I think I would rather take my watches to a certified repairer :)
Last edited by 2kilo; 25th November 2015 at 16:51.
Well I like to deal with someone like Paul or Brendan personally. They care a great deal about the watches and are willing to spend a bit of time educating idiots like me about the technicalities of this strange hobby we all enjoy. Swatch did a great job for me recently on a watch under warranty but it was completely "faceless" (as it has to be for a business of this size, I know). Brendan fixed a couple of watches for me at a fair price and explained what had gone wrong with them. Paul prevented me getting ripped off on ebay and sold me a lovely old Omega. I appreciated their help very much, and enjoyed learning a few things along the way.
I'll admit it - I always try to support local business etc and this is the equivalent in the watch world for me. Long live the independents!
We're agreed on one point....I`d rather you took your watch to a certified repairer too. Enjoy the warm feeling.
Paul
Agreed. I worked over there a couple of times in my past life and I know what they can be like.
Paul
Personally, I would much rather have services done by a person woho I know and trust, rather than hand it over to a large multinational corporation.
The individual is much more likely to consider your onward business and reputation, and therefore do the best job their skill can achieve.
A multinational, where your watch will be in up to 10 sets of hands, will just think of it in numbers and do what they feel like.
And will not support much that is over a certain age.
If we do not use local watchmakers, they will not be there in the future.
So when your grandfathers sentimentally valuable watch needs repair, which is unfortunately not of a make and model currently supported by a large corporation, there will be no-one to help.
That would be sad
I`ve had spats with 2kilo in the past over this, no point in reiterating my views or trying to change his opinion. His views are somewhat blinkered but there's no point arguing. Who services his watches when they need attention?..........I know at least one (probably 2) who wouldn`t be willing to help!
if I wasn`t in the position I`m in (able to service/maintain my own extensive collection using my stash of parts) there's no way I could continue to own and maintain properly a collection of over 20 watches. In the old days I took them to a local repairer and he charged a very fair price (he wasn`t so good, but that's immaterial) but that option would now no longer exist because he can`t get parts.
I agree wholeheartedly with Webwatchmaker (Brenden); there are folks like him who are being prevented from plying their trade owing to this decision. For me, it curtails a hobby/interest that I`m passionate about, for others it'll seriously affect their income.
walkerwek1958:
I respect Jammt79's views although we don`t agree on a few points; he's in the trade and accredited so he's in a different position.
It's all too easy for folks like 2kilo to come out with his 'survival of the fittest' crap. So how about me?......at my stage of life (57) it makes no sense to commit £15-£20K to meet the Swatch Group/Omega accreditation criteria. I`d be fixing watches full-time for many years to make it worthwhile; given the fact that I DON'T want a full-time job, plus recent health issues, it's a non-starter so I guess (in 2kilo's parlance) natural selection should rightly take it's course .
For what it's worth, I think there will always be ways and means of getting Omega/Swatch parts from overseas. This will be costly and inconvenient, but I don`t think Swatch will be able to stop third party supply unless they police things rigorously. The ideal scenario would be a successful legal challenge in one of the key countries where they value their sales presence; it only takes that to happen in one area and the genie's out of the lamp.
Personally, I`m hedging my bets and buying up parts at the moment...........I`ll give up working on watches when I decide, not Swatch Group.
Paul
I couldn't put it better Paul.
Just to add that I've heard the Chinese have been approached by a US Watch repairing consortium in order for them to make popular parts for Swiss watch calibres.
I'd rather not have to go down this route.
There are one or two old gits on this forum who just like to blow their trumpets without any music !
I support small independent businesses [being one myself] however when a global company I depend upon changes strategy, rather than not except the realities of a changing world I would spend my energies adjusting my business to suit the new outlook…?
Some on here see this as a “blinkered” viewpoint and feel the need to bicker, patronise and whine about the situation, which appears was initially exaggerated, until some trade members posted a more reasonable version of the situation…
2kilo(quote):
I support small independent businesses [being one myself] however when a global company I depend upon changes strategy, rather than not except the realities of a changing world I would spend my energies adjusting my business to suit the new outlook…?
Some on here see this as a “blinkered” viewpoint and feel the need to bicker, patronise and whine about the situation, which appears was initially exaggerated, until some trade members posted a more reasonable version of the situation…
'Sure ! I got principles.....but if you don't like them I got others'.
But Groucho Marx was a comedian...
These are serious matters for the Watch Trade in the UK and globally.
Last edited by Webwatchmaker; 25th November 2015 at 21:06.
I would support my local watchmaker if he was not a total plonker.
Personally, I do use both Rolex Service Centre and Omega Service Centre for my watches but I've only got three mechanicals, heaven knows what it would cost to have a decent collection regularly serviced.
That's my choice though and I do firmly believe that we should have a choice of whether to use them or independents as we can when having cars serviced.
I'm surprised that the EU hasn't jumped on this as they did on car manufacturers some years ago.
Last edited by JeremyO; 25th November 2015 at 21:20.
I am fairly confident that the feeling will be mutual.
As I said below, there is a female MEP tasked with 'encouraging' the Swiss to respect our Restraint of trade regulations. I have forgotten her name but will find out. Watchmakers are no longer considered a priority. Car repairs affect far more people and account for many more employees.
That's why car manufacturers delusions were quickly hit on the head.
Whilst I'm on the subject, when in CH working, I was made aware that many young in-house watch repairers use cannabis during their working day.
This is tolerated because it helps them cope with the near battery farm conditions and silent atmosphere of a watch repair workshop.
The end result is a large number of returns from in-house quality control and therefore a further delay in you getting your watch back on time.
Last edited by Webwatchmaker; 26th November 2015 at 06:50.
I don't think you will change a situation the EC found no problem with... twice... after the UK, France, Germany, Italy, Holland, etc complained...? Is that right...?Originally Posted by Webwatchmaker
These are serious matters for the Watch Trade in the UK and globally.
Time is better spent looking for alternatives, while restraining the Swiss as much as possible IMHO...? Have the Swiss not given over a decades notice of their intentions...?
I'm frustrated by the negative outlook on the situation, there will be positive aspects that can be exploited, chances for people to thrive - seize the day, and all that - and I bet the speculated problems are not as bad as thought...?
Last edited by 2kilo; 26th November 2015 at 11:09.
I`m amazed to hear that cannabis use was tolerated, but I`m not surprised to hear about the working conditions!
Frankly, I wouldn`t last a day in such an environment. Working at a service centre must be one step up from being a battery hen! Concentration is required for hours on end, workloads will be high, you'll have very little control over the working day. That's not conducive to motivation in my view. The pseudo-medical environment, with white coats and studious expressions, is an image the manufacturers like to portray, but it doesn't take much nounce to look beyond that.
An independent working on his own has to perform exactly the same tasks, and if he's got any sense he'll have a clean environment and decent tools/equipment, but there the similarity ends. If he wants to take a break, he can. If he wants to structure his day to suit himself he's able to do so (provided he keeps on top of the workload). He has control over his activities and, in my opinion, is far more likely to produce high quality work consistently. He can have silence for the jobs that require intense concentration, or he can play heavy metal music for the less intense tasks if he so desires! Workloads can be shuffled to ensure the demanding/highly skilled tasks are done when he's up for it; working on a hairspring the morning after a heavy night of socialising is a definite no-no in my opinion, but doing a bit of bracelet refinishing's OK!
It's not all about qualifications, certificates, accreditation, facilities etc etc........it's about the individual and how capable he is of producing the right results. I`m not dismissing the 'measurable' parameters in any way, but believe me there's more to it than that. The Swiss culture lends itself to box-ticking and following rigorous procedures; I saw it in the chemical industry when I was over there. If the right boxes can be ticked on a form the outcome MUST be correct, that's the way they see things. Some of this is commendable; the 'Swiss' way of assembling a watch involves 'controle' tests at each stage of assembly and that makes a lot of sense; I was taught this on BHI courses and it's stayed with me, it works, there should be no nasty surprises when the watch is completed. But for me they take this regimented philosophy too far, and the desire to control and restrict who can work on watches they sold 40 years ago (by restricting parts supply) is a symptom of this way of thinking.
As a keen amateur/hobbyist/meddler I`ve neither the right nor the background to assume the mantle of spokesman for independent repairers, but whether folks agree or don`t agree with what I`m saying I think my views do carry some validity.
Maybe the guys who work in the Service Centres really are akin to battery hens........personally I`d rather be a free-range corn-fed chicken.
Now it's time for some Northern Soul whilst I finish an ETA 2824, then take the dog for a run whilst the sun's out! No white lab coats or studious expressions here......just wear my game face when it's needed and a smile for the rest of the day!
Paul
I'm doing my bit http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...a-from-Genisis
Hardly local though.
I would add that: I'm wary of outfits like Cousins dressing their concerns as "the champions of the independents, etc" they have been all too keen to exploit customers on price, postage and return policy in the past...?
Agreed: Cousins clearly have their own agenda and there's a strong element of parochial self-interest that they're trying to disguise as philanthropy. Their attitude towards customers leaves a lot to be desired......but like the crooked card game you have to play because it's the only game in town. Often they've been the only viable source of items so you end up having to deal with them.
Paul
Last edited by walkerwek1958; 26th November 2015 at 11:56.
I am pleased by all the responses to my post.
Particularly from Paul (walkerwek) who sums up the situation perfectly.
I am sure us independents will survive as we have always done.
Cousins I use regularly. Whilst I am not entirely happy with their business policies they do stock a huge number of parts.
If the Swiss did decide to offer parts to all, Cousins would suffer hugely I imagine.
That is orthogonal to the issue at hand. Seeking alternatives is not an exclusive activity; it can work alongside fighting potentially illegal anti-competitiveness.
And that is what exactly is happening. Why attack it? What is your agenda?
So? That makes it no less important to counter-attack their anti-competitive moves.
it is a negative situation. Being polyannish, as I think you are, won't make it go away. It ir right and proper, commercially sound, to attack anti-competitive moves by part of industry.
Of course, and no one is turning down those opportunities where they arise in niches. But sometimes the net effect of certain (probably illegal, in this case) changes is for the worse, and this is must be fought and dealt with.
I'd say this is baseless pollyanna-ism.
I don’t have an issue with the Swatch stopping supply. I have less time for those this still effects after being given a decade to find alternative solutions…
My view is that you should. It is anti-competitive. It damages the market and drives up prices unnecessarily.
Alternative solutions are a red herring: They are not the issue here. They can be and will be found as the competitive need arises. The problem remains what it is: That anti-competitive measures by near-monopoly suppliers should not be accepted.
One should draw no conclusions from this. Everything is negotiable with the EU. They'll change their mind if it suits them.
By the way, can you (or anyone else) provide any links to the reviews by the EU? I'd be interested to read the details.
I presume you mean "accept" the realities. You speak as if the changes are somehow inevitable, as if there is only one right solution. You are a defeatist. If that was always the case there would be no point campaigning for any kind of change anywhere. Part of life, part of reality, is that some things are unacceptable and must be fought. That is part of moving forward. It might not be 'moving forward' in the way you'd apparently like to see it (i.e. accepting higher prices, loss of employment, more old watches being scrapped or left in drawers) but it is nevertheless moving forward in a positive, assertive manner. It might not succeed. Or it might succeed. It's worth trying surely rather than your approach of seemingly just giving up.
As I pointed out, developing alternative lines of supply is orthogonal to fighting illegal business practices. We can potentially (and probably should) have both.
What failure would that be? As I said, alternatives are not really the issue here. They are not relevant to the specific issue of illegal business practices.
As I said, you are pollyanna-ish. You seem little concerned with commercial risks that are being illegally forced upon people. A wise person is concerned with such things.
Wow, where to start with such a glib and fantastical statement.
First of all, you say that the issues have been overstated. "Overstated" in your opinion. Again, I ask you what your agenda is? Whom exactly are you astroturfing for? Could it be that the people who are concerned and who are most directly affected are, in fact, correctly stating the level of threat?
Secondly, you say "corrected by newly certified watch repairers". What an intriguing and telling choice of words. You apparently perceive that there is a problem that must be corrected. As I pointed out above, your entire mindset is that there is only one possible future and that it is already a necessity, that it must be right because the big players have said so. Life is not so pat and it is not necessarily so. There are other possible futures. What newly certified watch repairers. The clear and unambiguous intent of these changes is to put independent watch repairers out of business, except for a very few. This looks like a bad deal for the consumer as it will drive up prices and reduce competition. And yet you're are still in favour of it! Again, I can only wonder what drives and motivates your position here.
Last edited by markrlondon; 27th November 2015 at 01:59.
Pretty much sums it up for me.
Two for two.I presume you mean "accept" the realities. You speak as if the changes are somehow inevitable, as if there is only one right solution. You are a defeatist. If that was always the case, there would be no point campaigning for any kind of change anywhere. Part of life, part of reality, is that some thing are unacceptable and must be fought. That is part of moving forward.
And the hat trick, two tries and a conversion…And yet you're are still in favour of it! Again, I can only wonder what drives and motivates your position here.
It really beggars belief when someone would argue for less choice and higher prices? That makes no sense to me. Then again I have noted among some online on different that they see the "official authorised service cost" as something to actually brag about as a good thing, an extra notion of "luxury". Fools and their money springs readily…
Mark, it obviously a touchy subject for you, most of your arguments seem to be “what ifs” and speculation with a blind refusal to accept EC rulings…?
People would rather continue with an ETA monopoly on movements because they wish to keep a few small traders in business… for life…?
So a tiny, tiny number of people can get a cheap service….
Have not ETA opened the door for other suppliers - thus encouraging competition…?
The issue here is that you have tried and failed over 10yrs to change a situation - it is not defeatist to look elsewhere…
Your scaremongering of the future prices is speculation? Direct prices saved me over £200… It may or may not happen but you should stick to facts…
If you google and look through past threads you will see people have overstated the cost of parts and difficulty of the certification process…
“less choice and higher price” should read as “qualified service, cheaper parts” from my experience to date…
My Agenda is - I’m frustrated, disappointed and embarrassed by posts slamming into Swatch, they tend to blame everyone but themselves and avoid certain realities…
Shit ‘appens - get on with it….
Sounds like something a marketing dept would come up with, while avoiding the obvious of course, as marketing depts will. The obvious being that when manufacturers of any item control the parts and service supply prices go up. This is a near certainty. I'd love for you to show me a case where this didn't happen. It makes good sense, control supply and you control the pricing and margins. We see this in the car industry. Compare and contrast the price difference between name brand main dealer parts and service and OEM and independent garages. Now imagine if OEM and independents didn't exist. The customer would be really gouged and they may not even notice without anything to compare it to. We see similar price differences in watch servicing and brand servicing costs are going ever upwards(just like the watch prices themselves over the last two decades). Remove independents and… On another forum I frequent a Swedish chap started a thread looking for servicing advice for his vintage Heuer BUND chronograph. TAG wanted over two thousand euro to service what is a common enough Valjoux movement. Independents, specialists in Germany wanted more like two to three hundred euro.
Actually that particular model of watch illustrates the problem quite well, but from a different angle. German dealers and watchmakers have been stockpiling BUND specific parts for these over the last few years and you generally have to go to them for the non generic parts and most know how to charge for that privilege. Again, control supply and you control the market.
I certainly don't have a horse in this race. Not on the professional side of things anyway. I do have concerns as a customer though.
Just spent an interesting hour reading through the EU papers and rulings on this subject.
The problem seem to me to be how you ask the right question of the Commission and the Court and how you present your evidence.
Mind you I have to say that part of the original decision of the commission not to rule that Swatch were anti competitive seemed to be based on the idea that luxury watches were expensive trinkets so if your luxury watch broke down you would easily be able to afford a new one if you did not want to pay an extortionate amount for the original maker to fix it.
What seems not to have crossed their mind is to ask Swatch for how long they would be prepared to hold a stock of spares for any given watch. You could easily end up in a situation where Swatch effectively make a watch obsolete such that it cannot be repaired once it's more that a few years old. I mention Swatch because they, at least, admit, to being part of the investigations but the same idea of making your luxury watch obsolete could apply to any luxury maker.
Last edited by aldfort; 27th November 2015 at 13:25.
2kilo, what business do you work in, and what watches do you own?
I`m asking for 2 reasons: one is plain curiosity, the second is to try and cast some light on the stance you've taken over this.
Few on this forum seem prepared to agree with you; as a watch enthusiast amongst fellow enthusiast that puts you into a minority.
You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about parts prices, probably based on Cousins trying to rip you off.
Paul
I don't even know who mine is, but unless they offer decent service, I simply wouldn't bother.
It's the new kids wanting to become Watchmakers that I feel sorry for.
Restricting parts will reduce training opportunities.
There are many like me who prefer to work alone in peace and quiet.
Watch repairing is the perfect solution and pays well.
Working in-house is dismal and depressing.
Working in-house, listening to Radio 1 all day, 5 days a week repairing watches for 8 hours a day is absolutely exhausting even for the younger kids.
They don't want that these days. You feel like a battery hen.
Generally, in my experience Swiss Houses charge at least 4 times what they pay their repairers.
Self employed independents work to their own schedule. They stop when they're tired and therefore pay closer attention to the job in hand.
I firmly believe that there will be an outcome from this debate which will satisfy everyone concerned
Last edited by Webwatchmaker; 29th November 2015 at 11:24.
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