Reply With QuoteNice find, and a decent size. Could look good on vintage brown leather if you find a shade to complement the indices/hands?
I picked this up over the weekend. I've had a hankering for a vintage pilot's watch for a while and bought this on impulse.
I'd like to change the strap, probably to one with the screw-in rivets, but maybe a leather straight through would be nice. Suggestions welcome.
Nice find, and a decent size. Could look good on vintage brown leather if you find a shade to complement the indices/hands?
i’m loving that crown.
would look nice on a rich brown leather with a bit of age/hand stitching.
something close to this:
Thanks both. That strap looks great, where did you get it?
I just grabbed the pic from here http://www.basandlokes.com
Not bought anything from them (I would get something similar from 31trum leather)
That's lovely
I have looked at those for years but never committed to the purchase
Vintage feel in a modern(ish) size
what a gorgeous piece. I'd go with something brownish too strap wise...
Nice find. However, I`d be tempted to get the hands relumed to match the dial, they look a bit orange to me. It would need doing by someone good at matching colours and getting the aged look right......that rules me out.
On the other hand it may be better left alone. As for the strap, I`d keep it on black.
Paul
It's actually pretty small, I have quite a small wrist.Originally Posted by Sinnlover
Thanks Paul. The lume colours are much closer in the flesh, I think the daylight coming from the side was shadowed a little bit on the hands. Must take some proper pictures! I'll take another look though.
I had originally thought about a black strap, but wanted a vintage feel and haven't seen a black strap that has that yet. Maybe I'll just have to try both. :)
I'm not trying to set any alarm bells off but I'd be interested to know what due diligence you did on this watch prior to purchase. I'd normally expect these to have a working coin edge bezel and an unpolished case (as the cases are plated base metal polishing runs a high risk of taking the plating off). Unfortunately I haven't got access to my copy of Knirim at the moment but should be able to check at the weekend. I'd be a little bit concerned as this style of watch is commonly attempted by the usual Ukrainian franken manufacturers. Of course, I'd be more than delighted to be proven wrong.
In terms of your original question I take it that this watch still has the heavy fixed lugs? I've seen these on a heavy canvas NATO which looks quite good, as does suede - pretty much any strap material that looks good on a Panerai will suit but the fixed lugs obviously prevent you from using any straps actually designed for a PAM. I agree that a traditional, riveted flieger strap should definitely be in the strap box as an option.
Not much in the way of due diligence, as I said it was a bit of an impulse purchase. I'd seen quite a few pictures of Helvetias with the coin edge bezel and some without. The plating on the bezel is a bit chipped in places which seemed reassuring to me. Obviously the crystal is new. I doubt I could prove anyone wrong one way or the other in relation the the authenticity but I am not alarmed by that.
I do have the heavy fixed lugs. I thought about a canvas NATO having seen some pictures of ones on them, but I couldn't see how to fit the the fixed bars onto the secondary strap of the NATO? I think I'd prefer black or brown leather anyway but being able to fit to a leather NATO would give me more options if you can explain how I could do that.
Where did you buy yours?
A vintage watch shop in Prague. Nice picture!
NATOs are specifically designed for watches with fixed lugs - any NATO will fit your watch. The video below was made by the site owner and although he is fitting a watch with spring bars you can note that he does not remove either of them to fit the strap - including making allowance for the secondary bit.
Thanks for that, the moment he started pulling the strap apart I realised how it was supposed to work. That gives me some more options for the strap then...
Was it on the corner of Narodni and Mikulandska? Streetview indicates that the shop is called Kralovstvi Hodin.
Blimey that's a bit creepy. Not sure, I was only in Prague for the weekend and never been before.
It doesn't really help at this stage but my advice would have been to buy a second-hand Prim for about £40 quid to limit the damage - that's what I did (though, to be fair I never wear it). I'd be grateful if you could post more photos and I will point a couple of other people at this thread to see what their view is: my suspicion is that you've bought some sort of East European franken watch but, as I've said before, I'd be more than pleased to be proven wrong. For some reason the Czech Republic seems to be the global epicentre in the trade for 1928 flieger style watches and I don't know why.
They had a lot of Prims which to me were interesting but didn't really appeal whereas this one did. Generally I would only buy a watch to wear.
If they had a lot of Prims then it might have been the one in the Jewish Quarter - on Maiselova and called Old Clocks. To be fair they had a pocket watch that had been converted into a large wristwatch but they were very up front about it being a modern conversion rather than original.
I don't have the details with me but can check later.
Here's a picture of the movement:
Morning CB, did you manage to check out Knirim? As you can see I posted a picture of the movement. I tried to do a bit of research of my own and I think that the movement looks very much like the Helvetia 81 from c. 1935 shown here:
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-...wk&Helvetia_81
I don't know if Dr. Ranfft is a respected authority but his site looks very comprehensive. I can see a couple of differences but they seem cosmetic to me; I'm aware that these can sometime make all the difference. The frequency and power reserve specified match the way my movement performs
As you can see from the photo the case is plated brass despite the polished finish. It seems to fit the movement very well but equally I guess the case could be later and the movement fitted to it.
If it's OK with you I'll hold off on putting up the name of the shop until we have worked out what I've bought. To be absolutely clear they didn't represent the watch to me as anything but what I could see, volunteered that the crystal had been replaced and after I spent a long time looking at it said they would be happy to refund if I subsequently decided it wasn't right.
Last edited by alfat33; 29th November 2015 at 11:28.
I've had a couple of this style down the years, IMHO It's "correct". Many of the Helevtias have the small movement in the larger case, less often do they have the full size movement. I suspect cost was a factor, though the reason for the large size of these watches was to house a larger movement to increase accuracy. Your movement is a nice one though, with shock protection, so not low grade by any means. The Omega and Zeniths have a movement that fills the case. I've also seen this style from Helvetia and Doxa minus the elapsed time pointer and reeded bezel. Again I suspect cost was a factor, though takes a little from the functionality of a pilots watch of this design. The part that is definitely a replacement is the crown. They originally sported either quite a plain more "modern" looking crown or more commonly a pocket watch like onion crown.
For such an apparently popular, clearly thought out and consistent(though quite anachronistic) design* that many manufacturers produced there is remarkably little in the way of background history to them. I've seen them described as "1928 Luftwaffe pattern"(pity the Luftwaffe didn't exist in 28…), even that they were a design dreamt up by Hermann Goering of all people(highly dubious). As CB noted these seem to cluster in central to eastern Europe. Lots of them come out of Poland and Germany. My Zenith example was bought by a German chap(and years back Zenith confirmed that it was sold to their dealer in Berlin in 1935). I've seen adverts for them in French so that may have been a market as well. They didn't seem to be popular in the Anglosphere, though I have seen an American made watch that was pretty similar. Size may have been the factor there. As a very general rule by the mid late 30's the Anglosphere seemed to prefer smaller pilot watches.
*They came as sub seconds, centre seconds, even no seconds and chronographs. I've even seen a "ladies/boys" version from Zenith that was 31mm. However the general layout of black dial, cathedral hands, bezel and pointer, large crown and oddball fixed ribbon lugs remains consistent.
Thanks Wibbs, that's very helpful. I enjoy learning about the history, it's part of the attraction. That said, I'm not a military fanatic and I was under no illusions that I was buying a watch that had been used in combat, or frankly even been worn by a pilot. I just like this look and the working vintage mechanicals. FWIW I have another Swiss movement that I know to be from the 1930s and the finish and the texture of the steels seems very much the same if that makes any sense.
Then again hard to believe a watch will stay entirely intact through all of that time and turmoil especially in Eastern Europe. I expect there were long periods when it was just an old watch.
Thanks again.
Edited to add:
That would make sense. The finish on the crown feels sharper, no real wear so I could easily believe it has been changed much more recently. The shape makes it very easy to change the time., I suppose an onion crown would have the same effect.
Last edited by alfat33; 29th November 2015 at 12:40.
Very true. I'm often amazed by how so many have survived in anything like original condition. Like you said they probably did because they were an "old watch", ignored in a corner of cupboard or attic for many decades. Go back 30 years and watches like this and most other mechanicals that weren't sentimental heirlooms(which tend to be rarely worn) were considered old fashioned and near worthless. Being not made of precious metals helps enormously as so many watches with gold cases were melted down out the back of pawn shops.
Actually thinking more on your watch A, the small movement in the big case further points to it being OK. A hunter style(crown at 3, seconds at 6) pocket watch conversion/franken would be much more likely to have a full sized movement filling the case. PLus they'd have to find a black enamel dialled hunter pocket watch to convert. I don't think I've ever even seen a black dialled pocket watch in that configuration and never a Helvetia. It would be a helluva lot rarer than the wristwatch anyway.
Another aspect of these and the times they come from is that production runs seem to be smaller and there was quite the variability with dial designs. I'd have had more interest and contact with the Zenith versions of this design and for example I can think of three different dial layouts for the centre second Zeniths alone. The Zenith 1928's can vary all over the place full stop. Some are marked "Special", some "Extra special/Extraspecial", some have "1A" under Zenith for some reason, some have no text other than Zenith and I've seen a couple were it was spelled "Spezial". Oh and the movements were identical in quality, jewels and finishing regardless of the presence of Special on the dial. The font for Zenith varied a little too. Most had enamel dials, but the centre seconds were printed metal. Helvetias are just as variable. moreso if anything. The Omega would be the most consistent. They're all pretty much identical and the only one that has a fully steel case. Big variability in cases too. Some like yours have a pocket watch style snapback cuvette rear cover(s), others, most have a screwback arrangement. I've seen Helvetias with both. Some have normal sized crowns, some have ginormous ones(the Zenith's stick out the most). There must have been a few case makers involved during these years of production. Doesn't seem like it was just one, or even inhouse as they vary in small details all over the place. Though again small production runs might explain that too.
Like I said really odd how so little is known of what was a very popular design produced by so many for the guts of a decade. Helvetia, Omega, Zenith, Longines, Girard Perregaux(Mido), Doxa, Heuer, Breitling and a host of mostly forgotten names like Minerva, Oris, Roamer, Leonidas, Arsa(calm down at the back :)), Techno, Natalis, Rellum, Phenix, Orsa, Helma and more produced these. Hopefully threads like these will bring up more information.
Here's a pic of the German Ace Adolf Galland wearing one of these.
There are a couple of photos of him wearing his. I'd reckon it's an Omega, judging by the crown.
And much more recently a certain Mr Springsteen with his.
His appears to be a Zenith centre seconds example.
And here's my one, same as the "Boss".
That's beautiful. Where did you get the strap?
Italian seller on ebay if I recall. Very cheap too, like 15 euro. Did a quick search and here's the crowd in question. 14 euro so about a tenner in sterling? Lots of choice too. I found it an OK Nato strap. No worse than some much more expensive anyway.
Apologies for the delayed response. I've checked the Knirim and it's remarkably thin on the subject; 2 pages. For some reason I'd remembered it has having much more. The PDF in this link has the photograph from the Knirim volume.
http://www.knirim.de/uhrgesch.pdf
I'm glad that Wibbs has chimed in here as I know that he has been tracking these longer than I have. If Wibbs says it's OK then I'm happy to go with that.
Thanks CB, I've found this all very informative. As Wibbs says, there is incredibly little information readily available about these watches given how widespread they must have been at one time.
It is that CB. So odd how such an "iconic" design gets lost in mists of time. Actually I can't think of an earlier watch with a rotating bezel? So thats another first for the design.
Words rarely typed without laughter…If Wibbs says it's OK then I'm happy to go with that.
Here's another contemporaneous pic of the Omega and how it was often worn.
And an advert for the Omega.
Note how that version is larger than average at 44mm and with the longer crown. Oh and when I said previously the Omega didn't vary much, I had brain failure, as they did. There was the Zenith clone* version, the one in the first pic above and the CK2000. The last one is very cool, but extremely rare to see. It doesn't come across in the picture, but the inner rotating bezel is metal.
*I say clone as the Omega seem to come along a little later. Mid 30's on whereas the earliest Zenith I've seen was a 1930 example. IIRC Longines claim one of theirs is from 1926, but I'm not so sure. Never even heard tell of a Longines one in the wild until two examples showed up in their museum a couple of years back. Dating the Helvetias is sadly out of reach as far as I'm aware?
There was me thinking that once I had one vintage pilot's watch I'd be satisfied and now you two have me wondering whether I should try to get one of each Helvetia movement or maybe search for a Zenith, an Omega, and then there is a JLC I've seen which appeals because I have a modern one...
I tried the strap site you recommended Wibbs but sadly they are sold out of many of the styles now. I found something similar on eBay though and have it on order, if it looks OK I'll put a picture up.
Oh oh. Now you have the bug.
Reactivating an old thread I know but I did promise to put a half decent picture up once I had a proper strap. Thanks to Wibbs for pointing me at the right bit of eBay. Very much enjoying wearing this, dodgy crown and all.
Edited to add: I also meant to say that the shop where I bought it is H & K Antik, near the Alphonse Mucha museum. It's a small place with some other antique shops, seems to specialise in jewellery and watches. Not especially expensive.
Last edited by alfat33; 12th December 2015 at 13:17.
Looking good
Sorry for dragging you both back in but I was quite excited to see a watch in Chrono24 that appears identical to mine apart from the numerals on the dial. Disregarding the price which seems extraordinary (but it does look like a Patek dealer), it has the exactly the same shaped case, i.e. no coin-edged bezel, unlike the ones you pictured above. Also the crown looks much closer to the type that you suggested would be correct rather than the 'aftermarket' one I have, but also different from the larger onion shaped ones on some of the other examples you gave above.Looking good
I'd not seen one apart from mine so thought I'd share.
http://www.chrono24.com/all/helvetia--id4518134.htm
Last edited by alfat33; 13th June 2016 at 15:51.
That would be more like the original crown alright and yes another example of the one minus the reeded bezel.
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