Reply With QuoteYou'll get shot round here if you lump Japanese watches in with Chinese...
Okay, so I visited Baselworld and got into this discussion with man near the Patek Philippe window.
Well in truth he was talking to his friend and I got caught up in it a little as it's a subject I always think about.
Everyone knows that swiss watches are a brand in themselves. They've built an amazing reputation for many years, but the friends we're arguing playfully over the fact that japanese and chinese manufacturers are mimicking swiss movements and also designs. Changing them just enough so they don't break any copyright laws.
One guy was saying that the they are simply taking world class designs and engineering and making it their own. Whilst the other guy was saying that it was amazingly disrespectful and harmful to brands when other watches are released into the market which are exactly the same in terms of design, but they have a low quality movement inside and this can reflect badly on the brand they were mimicking in the first place.
I had to agree with the second guy, and I told him so too. But that got me thinking. With the asian market constantly copying swiss manufacturing. Is it actually a positive thing? The fact that swiss companies are pushed constantly to innovate and stay ahead? This can only keep the watch industry evolving, which is obviously better for the consumer?
Thoughts?
You'll get shot round here if you lump Japanese watches in with Chinese...
Hold it, let me get my popcorn.
No he won't :)Originally Posted by kungfugerbil
Just saying that, as far as I know, the Japanese do not clone any Swiss movements, and their movements are own developments.
Citizen did buy La Joux-Perret though a few years ago, and TAG-Heuer the rights to a Seiko chrono movement.
The Chinese, after patents expired, started cloning the popular ETA movements.
Daddel.
Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!
Someone should have told Tag about this phenomenon, they've been doing it the other way around (adopting Japanese movements).
The Swiss companies have been using China for parts manufacture for many years. What did they expect would happen? And there's not much 'new development' in the mass market from Switzerland - the main workhorses are decades old, and it's not THAT hard to add complications on top.
The biggest Swiss investment isn't in horology, it's in marketing, in brand equity and heritage, in the nexus of distribution and retail - shops, shelves, footfall, and in things like capability and experience in case and dial design. All of these are MUCH harder to replicate than mechanical things.
Last edited by kk; 31st March 2015 at 17:21.
Of topic (apologies) but what did you think of BaselWorld?
A few guys on here went and have posted some great photos, but always interested to hear another perspective / see photos - especially of manufactories you just dont get to see in the shops.
The popcorn will have to wait unfortunately haha I am still learning. Amazingly interesting stuff. The fact that big swiss watch makers actually get pieces made in china is a shock. ( to a beginner like me anyway) haha
I heard a guy in a mont blanc store talking about swiss makers using chinese manufacture but couldn't make out the details.
On that note, what do you guys think of Mont Blanc watches? Ill put my neck out and say I think (visually) they're one of the most beautiful watches around. They inspired me a lot when designing my watches ands I took pictures of the store because the whole feel of it was just amazing.
Their marketing strategy is pretty effective too.
And Baselworld was amazing, we we're in meetings for most of the day but from what we saw, some of the models where unbelievable. I still have the pictures on my camera so Ill have to put them on the thread when I get a second (can be bothered) haha
learnt so much there though and everyone was fairly accepting and answered pretty much any question we had.
p.s.. To the person who has the popcorn, please feel free to share (however if its salted, you can keep it) :)
Generally speaking they get parts made in China - plates, springs, balance wheels. The rules are pretty bent and allow a watch to be labelled as Swiss if the total cost of manufacture exceeds a certain percentage (I'm not sure what that is TBH). Of course the really expensive part is the final assembly at Swiss salary rates (and no doubt some accounting to allow for other local costs).
I had a Mont Blanc Sport Chrono for a while about 12-13 years ago and loved it - well made, nice design, 41-42mm so good on the wrist. Perhaps a little naff from a brand perspective - being known really for pens rather than watches - but worth the money at the time for sure. Prices have probably drifted beyond what I'd pay for one now.
Back on topic here's a picture of a manufacturer you can't get in shops - Beijing Beihai - made in China. £500 or so and rather lovely in the metal. Judge each watch individually, not by country of origin.
uploadfromtaptalk1427830466385.jpg
Looks nice - got one of the front as well?
http://www.good-stuffs.com/Beijing-B...atch_p_73.html
R
Last edited by ralphy; 31st March 2015 at 20:55.
Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.
Can you share some pics from Baselworld?
Swiss manufacturers using Chinese parts is somewhat of an old wives story unless backed up with solid evidence.
I have heard some saying Omega bracelets are sources out to China.
I would love to know if someone has firm evidence of Asian sourcing from big Swiss brands.
Is possible but would like to verify it.
Pretty sure I saw a photograph of a replacement omega bracelet with 'country of origin CN' or something similar on the receipt. Not that I care much, mind - that's where everyone's beloved iPhone is made.
Asians are coming...thrust me.
If you think about 60's Japanese cars, not even mentioning Korea, they where like shoe boxes that you could laugh.
Anyone driving Asian design car nowdays? Anyone?
-OD
Asian manufacturers just need to come up with more original designs.. Place more emphasis in QC, tighten up their supply and distribution chain and they will be a force to be reckoned with.
Perhaps you could let us see your watch designs?
F.T.F.A.
29 days to go?
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...ncaster-robert
Raj, I'm pretty sure there are threads about this on here but here's a discussion on WUS with pictorial claims of Swatch/Omega using parts of Chinese origin: http://forums.watchuseek.com/f20/jus...st6797207.html
I particularly liked the line from the Kick Starter advert "we found that genuine luxury watches like Rolex and Tag Heuer are far too expensive for the modern day professional." .... surely the very crux of luxury is that most folk can't afford them
Still, nice looking bottom end quartz watches but I can't help but think I'd rather have a Seiko 5 automatic for considerably less money.
I thought the presentation box looked more expensive than the watch.I particularly liked the line from the Kick Starter advert "we found that genuine luxury watches like Rolex and Tag Heuer are far too expensive for the modern day professional." .... surely the very crux of luxury is that most folk can't afford them
Still, nice looking bottom end quartz watches but I can't help but think I'd rather have a Seiko 5 automatic for considerably less money.
I believe that is the ONLY ever piece of 'evidence' of all the MILLIONS of Omega bracelets and components that are supplied, and if it's the one I'm thinking of, it looks doctored anyway.
Besides, 'Swiss' is not a company. Do DOXA have parts made in China? Certainly. Do Patek, JLC or Rolex? No chance.
Agree with Daddel's comments, the Japanese make their own designs of movements (did they always though?). The Chinese I don't think waited until ETA patents expired until they started cloning / copying...
Yawn
Let's see your watch designs and project then, chop chop.
You're most likely right. Looks like a standard alibaba.com $2 watch-case jobby. http://www.alibaba.com/product-detai...075212102.html
Poor fools who pay for this crap, and have to wait for it to boot.
The only evidence I've seen is a Speedmaster bracelet at my local dealer, this clearly came from China.
He told me they forgot to take the stickers/tekst off.........
This was already years ago.
Daddel.
Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!
Good luck to them, but it's not going to fool anyone on here that they are a high quality watch.
Indeed ... it's actually been well documented most recently in an FT 'special feature' on the watch industry, I've also seen the practice referenced in The Economist.
The point about Patek, JLC etc making stuff in house is rather obvious ... I don't think anyone suggested that they did, it's more mass/mid market I was talking about.
I can use a photocopier too. As others have said, the box looks more expensive. Just another fashion watch with a load of rubbish trying to push it up market.
Is that on your C.V?
I need help uploading the photos with out using a URL, can anyone help?
It seems you found my designs too. In total honesty, regardless of people saying that "its just another cheap alibaba.com watch, you are fully entitled to your opinion. It's very easy to make judgements and say 'Yawn' ext ext
But if you had any idea as to how much work and effort has went into making these watches, then you may feel differently about your comments. Alibaba.com watches are low quality, theres no denying that. They have a very simple basic movement inside them and last 1-2 years max. I understand that.
As a new company we could have easily went down that route. But thats not what we wanted to achieve. We could have sooooo easily just made another cheap good looking watch that people could pick up for £50 and made a ton of cash... but we didn't.
This isn't a sales pitch at all. We're half way to being funded after just 6 days. It's fair to say we're doing okay.
We have long term goals and are receiving quotes from Walca in regards to making our next generation of watches fully swiss made. We spoke to them at Baselworld. If someone can help me upload them without using a URL then I'll share some picture with you.
In effect, i'm fairly sure that anyone just trying to make a quick cash in would not go to the lengths of traveling to Switzerland, just as a marketing ploy. We went their to speak with Ronda to learn as much as we could about the movement we wanted to put in our watches and also get business contacts so we can make our next generation fully swiss made. that was always the goal, and again, people who buy watches from alibaba.com don't go to those length to make sure they're watches are at a certain level of quality.
It doesnt bother me that you think their just another cheap watch. Because I and all the rest of our team know the truth. We we're just a week ago changing the weight of our watch hands and rebalancing them so that we can extend the warranty to 5 years instead of two. Obviously i'm sure you all know that the balance of the hands is critical incase your watch takes any impact and it can effect the time keeping. We worked with Ronda to perfect the weight and balance of our hands so that our watches are less prone to impact. As I said, this isn't a sales pitch, but after the amount of effort and attention to detail we have put into making the watches the very best they could be so that we can enter the affordable market with our heads held high, knowing that our first watch is't "just another fashion watch". But we've actually focused just as much on whats on the inside too.
As I stated before hand, everyone's entitled to an opinion. But when someone states that the watches have just jumped of the production line from alibaba.com, then in all honesty, the old saying of judging a book by it's cover is rather relevant.
Interesting response Mr Lancaster ... so where do you see your company in 5 years time, wholly Swiss made / assembled, automatic movements, available in retailers or internet only, market sector you're trying to break into (I'm guess you're aiming at the Chr. Ward type of buyer) etc?
You need to forget the "Alibaba" quote, I'm sure there was not a lot in that.
I'd be more worried that I had produced a totally unremarkable quartz wristwatch that will be sold in to a very congested segment of the market, which is held by well established and competent brands from around the world.
I do wish you well, but no amount of high res images are going to convince me that these watches are not destined at best for a "today's special value" slot on QVC.
The 4 jewel ronda you use is also quite basic. The "balancing" of the hands you speak of is it not just weight cutting, because its a relatively weak movement?
http://www.ronda.ch/fileadmin/user_u...il/3316051.pdf
Why not spring for a serious movement, like the ETA E63.101 Precidrive. Infinitely better timekeeping and you can use nicer more substantial hands. http://www.eta.ch/index.php?id=185
What else is it that sets your watches apart from all the other brands out there? You've been to Basel, you know just how many brands there are out there to compete with... Just curious. Its not a bad looking watch you've got but cut the spiel about luxury etc and just say its a clean watch at a decent price (subjective of course).
"Every Watch will be powered by a Renata 1.55 volt battery, the same battery powering luxury quartz models by Rolex, Tag Heuer and Breitling".
Apart from the gold plate it's not the 1980s any more!
Titter ye not.
Last edited by kk; 1st April 2015 at 14:08.
Go on then.
Let's see your watch designs and project, chop chop.
Say no more!
True. Not a many Grand Seikos that look as nice as the Seagull 1963.
I think its fairly evident that the watch industry is one of the most competitive industries in the world. Many companies spending millions and millions on marketing every single year. But if your passionate about horology and watch design but "the market is held by well established and competent brands from around the world" does that mean you go and start selling cream cakes instead?
No, I'd rather step up to a challenge.
And in response to your QVC remark (which, I will admit, I chuckled)
In honest truth, I would LOVE our watches to be showcased on QVC at this stage of the business. I'm sure you already know but it isn't cheap to have a custom made movement designed and built. Infact the quote I was sent yesterday from the man I shared a hostel room with in Basel (previous movement designer at Vacheron Constantin & Patek Philippe) we are looking at just under 60,000 euros for a customised ETA movement and then 300,000 upwards for a fully custom in-house movement. I dont mean to be rude, and you very well may have that amount of money lying around...but i dont. Therefore its always a nice idea to walk before you run. So if we need to enter the market at entry level and compete with fashion brands until we generate enough revenue to begin making fully swiss watches with our own in-house movement inside, then thats what we are going to do.
Every action we take is for the end goal, not to make a short term profit. If you know anyone from QVC then let us know...
And the remark about high resolution images, bravo.
You think we use High res images to convince people that our watches are something they're not? I suggest you find some time and Actually read our specifications. They are all very clear and the pictures are fully in concert with the information provided about our watches. Why would we need to convince you with high resolution images? Are we the only watch company that use high resolution imagery?
Hope this helps.
But the Seagull will run like a Nuns first curry.
Haha, never heard that expression before.
Very fair point.
We were looking at ETA movements and then heard news that Swatch were looking to stop working with external companies in supplying there movements. We couldn't risk the fact of basing our entire first range and stating we have this movement inside. Only then when it comes to manufacturing, Swatch can't provide us with the movements. it would have been too much hassle for what it was worth.
We are keeping an eye on the situation but we spoke to people at basel world and they said a similar think and agreed with our decision.
In regards to what different about us> In regards to the watch and casing, you hit the nail on the head, it simply is a "clean watch at a decent price". I'll change the kickstarter project tonight as your point is very true.
But where we diversity is our approach to customer service. If anyone knows of a company that does this as one service then let us know but.
We have 3 services that every one of our watches comes with.
Firstly, we worked with Hirsch leather to design a Wrist Assessment which we send out to every customer once they've chosen their watch. this allows us to get a profile of the individuals wrist and then we design and craft their strap in conjunction with that.
Secondly we offer state of the art, laser engraving in multiple fonts. We understand you can get a watch engraved right now anyway, but we wanted to have that service built in to the overall experience of buying a Lancaster Roberts watch.
Lastly, we want to be an international brand. So we developed a procedure in which we make sure that your watch is perfectly set to your personal time zone, no matter where you are in the world. Its the details that we are focusing on to try and add value to the brand and make every customer feel special.
I do wish you well, but let's just say that these kind of watches are not for me. I sadly don't know anyone from QVC, although I once thought about buying an expandable hose for washing the car, but in the end I thought better of it.
I've looked long and hard at the design of the watches, but I'm very sorry to say that the Scandinavians have beaten you to it.
The likes of Skagen/Danish Design and what have you, are already well established in that part of the market and I guess it will be difficult to convince people they should go for your watches.
But he ho, I wish you all the best with your project :)
Daddel.
Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!
In the next 3 years, we will have our first fully swiss made collection. The manufacturing costs should be within our budget after this kickstarter and all additional sales agreements we have in place.
Christopher Ward has an in-house built movement so they're defiantly a company we look up to. We can't see ourselves going to deeply into choreographs in the immediate future but we are looking to maybe add a small second counter near the bottom of the dial.
We want to make our first custom automatic watch by the end of 2016. That is very much our next goal.
The demographic we see ourselves aiming towards is evidently going to develop and vary though out the next 5 years. At them moment, as this forum has demonstrated, people who want a watch which is more established, isn't going to find our watches appealing. However they may appreciate our design. This simply means that is 5 years time, when we have a fully swiss made/assembled and checked automatic watch, they may look at us in a different light.
A lot of watch collector have been amazingly supportive. A few of the people we met at Basel and who have seen the watches first hand have bought one via our kickstarter. not as much for the watch it is atm, although they enjoy the design. But because they know where we are heading and that we are taking each step as perfectly as we can. We aren't cutting any corners.
Fully appreciate the fact our watch is not a Petek Phillipe or Omega or Rolex. but "luxury watch" per se, the actual definition of the word meaning "a pleasure obtained only rarely." then maybe our watch is not as far away from that mark as many would think.
So is that a truly custom strap or you're doing short / medium / long / extra long in traditional men's and ladies sizes and providing the nearest fit based on wrist circumference?
Nice idea and I'm sure it will be a popular option, but that suggests you'll be selling over the internet only?
Hmmmm that one goes over me head - what do you mean?
That's only for the mechanical movement range, they are happy to sell you quartz if youve got the money. They even opened a new B2B webshop, as you can see on the link I provided, where you can order movements directly and easily. Too bad we didn't meet at Basel I could've told you this...
How do you "craft" it? My guess is you choose from Hirschs standard range of M L or XL Straps, am I right? Perhaps punch an extra hole if you're out of the right size? Not a bad idea though, but dont try and sell the "crafted" gimmick here :)
So, you set the time, through a special procedure... OK. Though your movement does not allow for "perfect" time, it has no seconds hand and poor timing specs. But some customers may appreciate it, just make sure you keep track of summer and wintertime as it varies a lot with different countries...
The engraving is a nice touch, I'm sure many will appreciate.
That is a shame. This year was our first year and it was pretty amazing, Are you going next year? it may be an idea to have a coffee or one of those amazing sausage sandwiches they sell just outside? haha They're sooooo good
Thats correct yes, we use the information from the assessment to especially make sure that the strap (weather is be chained, leather or suede) fits the person before we send it to them.
And i appreciate your comment on the seconds hand, I could have wired the sentence better. and thank you for the pointers. Amazing feedback.
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