Reply With QuoteHow longs a piece of string, try selling a Panerai without B&P.
Seems many used watch ad's always list if the watch comes with the box & "papers" ....
How mach additional value would the correct box and papers add to a watch in a generic box with no papers?
How longs a piece of string, try selling a Panerai without B&P.
I guess that depends on how much the buyer is prepared to pay.
Could someone get Bletchley Park on the phone,
Last edited by number2; 5th March 2015 at 11:27.
Yeah Panerai without box and papers super tough ahaha. But for me, it also depends on age. Like for any modern watch I would expect papers and stuff. But for older stuff, its inevitable that it gets lost etc. I personally don't care too much, condition of the watch is far more important to me. Providing ofcourse that its all legit.Originally Posted by Captainhowdy
For me the bits and bobs tell the story of the watch,
Depends on the brand, age, condition, warranty, price class etc. 5-10% I'd say on a common model from a big name manufacturer.
I would never buy a Patek without B&P and wouldn't care with a £50 Seiko though.
I think it always has it's price, but that varies dramatically with the watch, how I'm going to use it, and whether or not I intend to move it on. If it's a beater and I know that it's condition is only going to decline under my ownership then I would haggle a bargain without box and papers. Some watches though, lack of documentation would cast so much doubt on the deal that the price would have to halve for me to consider it.
Sorry if I'm asking a stupid question but why is a Panerai's sale more tricky without a box and papers than a comparable brand e.g. Rolex?
I think it has to do with the amount of fakes out there.
From my experience its around 30% but as some of you mentioned already you could even get to 50% before considering a deal. I guess that would also depend on if the seller would agree
Personally there is a level where I wouldnt buy a watch without box and papers, although box and packaging is more important to me.
May be silly but I enjoy the watch presentation although it does then just sit in a draw !
Under £ 1000.00 I wouldnt be too fussed especially if its an older watch.
But I dont really know what knock on effect it actually has on a price, many watches there is a good selection of choice so given the choice based on similar condition why would you pay the same price for a watch if you can have same model / condition with box and papers.
My own very limited experience would suggest that 'no box & papers' makes higher end watches difficult to sell. My first Breitling was a lovely Superocean Steelfish X-Plus bought from Chronomaster without B&P, but when I put it up for sale on SC at a very realistic price I had no takers at all.
I finally traded it for an Omega Speedmaster Pro Gemjni IV that also had no box or papers, but I only did the deal because I knew I could get replacement papers for it...
Simon
Always look at the condition of the watch; a watch in great condition with no box & papers is a far better buy than a shagged-out watch with box, papers, original bill of sale etc etc.
It's not rocket science, but it's surprising how folks can overlook this fundamental point.
If no B & P, ALWAYS check that the spare links for the bracelet are included. If not, adjust the price accordingly. No B & P often means no spare links too.
Paul
I can't help feeling that too much fuss is made over this. These days it doesn't actually prove the watch is genuine as the box and papers are faked too. It may help to reassure, but equally lacking them doesn't prove it's fake either, not every previous owner is a watch nerd with a big stack of boxes taking up space (as I now have!). Or indeed a complete set of original star wars figurines still in their wrappers, or a childhood collection of stamps (which thankfully I don't have). So long as the watch is sound I'm not overly bothered. I might think it's worth a little extra on a nice watch, but equally might appreciate the saving on one that lacks them.
Panerai is a funny brand because there are followers called "Paneristis" and they put a HUUUUUGE emphasis on outer cardboard box and all that. Dont ask me why....
Doesn't worry me at all and I wouldn't pay a premium for them, but it's nice to have.
As someone said earlier, condition is more important than a bit of paper and a tatty box.
M.
I thought that it was because the cardboard boxes are often manufactured to a higher standard than the watches :-)
As others have said, box and papers are no guarantee of authenticity - if somebody can build an item as complex as a fake watch, and make it look (even to a casual inspection) like a real Rolex/Omega/whatever, then producing some fake bits of paper and a fake box will be child's play to them.
There are also "papers" and "papers" - those which actually include details about a specific watch (e.g. serial number) can help suggest authenticity, but I have seen more than one watch for sale with "box & papers" which, on inspection, only came with a generic instruction booklet which could have been issued with any similar watch.
I think that the real reason why B&P add value is that a luxury watch is always going to be a discretionary purchase. Nobody needs a luxury watch, so they are buying it because they want one - in which case, they would probably like to get the full set of ancillaries so that they can make it feel like they have a new item for second-hand prices. I suspect that it's a bit the same in the car world, where people buying "toy" cars place far more emphasis on full main dealer service history (try selling a Porsche or Ferrari without one) and full documentation, whereas somebody who is buying a workhorse as a daily driver will probably be less interested in paperwork and more in condition/reliability/fuel economy.
Totally agree.
The only interest I have in B&P is the fact that if I need to sell the watch, it'll be easier to do with them.
They just sit in a wardrobe and take up a lot of room, annoyingly. The novelty is literally over after a minute no matter how wonderfully shiny the polished wood is (or whatever).
As my collection moves towards an 'inheritance' thing for my one and only sprog, B&P has certainly become important for future provenance.
So do I.
I don't really understand why people get their knickers in a twist over things like this. It's a nice to have. And possibly might ad to the investment potential in certain cases. But if I actually want to wear the watch regularly, a reputable seller is all I need.
Agree with that. Selling a watch without B&P is more difficult unless it is priced as a bargain. Most of us are flippers and know we will want to sell the watch on at some point which is why I'd always be looking for B&P.
And I have bought many bargains without B&P but I think these days they'd be sub-£5k stuff unless vintage.
I have an Omega baby PloProf presently with Paul having a service,I bought this without box and papers,and would guess finding an original 70's baby plo quite difficult to find with box and papers,but it's still a very desirable watch regardless and imo would still sell easily without those long gone items.
Ok nice to have them,but if they ain't offered with the watch,well they ain't offered with the watch!.
Could care less about box and paperwork if the price is right.
It's rare to find vintage watches with the original box & papers.
Paul
Could or couldn't..?
Hi all I am interested in the whole box & papers issue as a previous poster mentioned the high level of fake panerai watches. Has anyone seen a fake box and papers up close? How good are they really? I am looking to buy a pam024 and would want to avoid being conned
Then buy from a well-known dealer or a well known poster.
The boxes are generally made in China anyway (I would imagine) so probably come from the same factory. Stories abound of huge trade fairs with every type of box and paper available...
My research when looking for a used Explorer yielded the following rough figures.
Buying a loose watch from a "random" individual sets and average base price
Buying with B&P from a "random" individual adds about 5%
Buying a loose watch from a bricks and mortar established independent adds about 5-10%
Buying with B&P from a bricks and mortar established independent adds about 10-15%
I chose to buy from Watchfinders with B&P and Rolex service history ... I could have bought the same watch off eBay/on-line for 90% of what I paid but I thought the provenance and comeback was worth the extra.
It is all about your attitude to risk and hassle ... the less you pay the more you are typically exposed; less I guess if you buy face to face and know how to spot a dud.
True and I have a low risk threshold so am looking to buy from a dealer or possibly a reputable member however no access to SC yet still a newbie here
As he's in the US, I guess that's "Could" as in "Couldn't".
M
I presume you had intended to type "drawer"?
Yawn. At least I don't have a bonnet on my car. ;-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om7O0MFkmpw
Excellent link, thanks for that!!
Surely the other concern of buying without B&P is the watch whilst genuine could have been stolen at some point in its life?
I think B&P (or recent manufacturer's service) provide a lot of reassurance if buying privately but agree it isn’t the be all and end all of a purchase decision.
For some brands B&P are vital. I wouldn't buy a modern Rolex without, due to the non-public L&S register. I know there are those that say B&P prove nothing but I'm still of the opinion that a watch is less likely to be stolen if the original papers come along with it.
I was looking for a sub recently and the lack of box and papers certainly makes you think twice and I reckon would take about 20% off the price. I would feel more reassured if there was an official AD service receipt if no original papers.Suppose its a bit like selling a car with no service book.Also the perception that if watch has box/papers it has been taken care of !Which may or may not be true.
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