A groundbreaking meeting of British horologists is due to take place in Watford next week as the British Watch and Clock Makers’ Guild (BWCMG) looks to set the agenda for the future of British horology.
The Industry Strategy Conference on March 11 is titled ‘Developing a Co-ordinated Action Plan to Support the Growth of British Horology’ and will see the big names in British watchmaking meet at Watford Football Club to discuss the possibility of co-ordinated British strategy for the future.
Topics of conversation will include ‘Uniting the Industry’, which aims to draw a line under ‘past divisions’ and seek a cooperative future; ‘Parts Supply’ which seeks to combat restrictive practices through legal and political means; ‘Education and Recruitment’ to address the limited number of students available to the UK industry and ‘Brand Britain’ which looks to defend British horologic heritage from ‘foreign abuse’.
Around 90 of the most prominent figures currently working in British horology have confirmed their attendance.
The invitation from the BWCMG reads: “The last ten years have seen a remarkable resurgence of interest in British Horology, and a significant increase in sales of mechanical timepieces. There is new investment in education, and a number of companies bringing back manufacturing facilities and increased employment opportunities.
“However, at the same time there is a serious increase in anti-competitive practices from major foreign watch houses, and an equally worrying trend for historic British brands to be used to sell inferior foreign product to unsuspecting consumers.”
The invitation continues: “Unity, openness, common interests and future thinking are the key themes of this conference. Our interest in the past is limited to what we can learn from it, so delegates can be assured that absolutely no time will be wasted looking backwards, all constructive ideas for the future will be welcome, and no debate will be constrained by past methodologies.”
Attendance is by invitation only but WatchPro will be there to cover the conference in full as well as take part in what promises to be an historic discussion.
The BWCMG is a trade association representing 800 individuals and organisations involved in British horology.
Article from Watchpro Magazine online
Hmm, it would be interesting to learn what they make of the various Timefactors brands. Historic British brand names on watches designed in Britain and manufactured in Germany.Originally Posted by PJ S
Whatever, I have three of Eddie's finest in my box at the moment, so at least I'm not one of those "unsuspecting consumers"...
It would be nice if someone would make a stand for British watchmakers/repairers. The BHI is terrible at best and the training they offer is poor to mediocre and severely out of date.
I'm not sure if the British Watch and Clockmakers Guild are the people to do it though. It is an industry body that you join up with to get another badge on your website/leaflets. They are very cheap to join and don't ask any questions so anyone can join.
We need a system where people know what a watchmaker is. In the UK no one controls the title so anyone can call themselves a watchmaker if they fancy. I think we will never have enough money in the UK to offer a proper school, training and accreditation. With it would follow the ability for suppliers to trust certain skill levels with parts accounts.
But at least someone is trying. Even if it stops people thinking the BHI achieve/do anything (other than help retired people repair clocks) it will be a bonus.
This sounds very promising indeed. Creating a wider brand awareness for British would be hugely beneficial.
I think there's no point worrying about this; all that matters strategically speaking is to create British competition.
Examples?
As it happens, I would very much like to see something similar to the "Swiss Made" rules with significantly add perceived value to Swiss watches: Legally enforceable minimum content by value, rules on inspection steps, and where certain steps are done, with a higher minimum value content than the Swiss rule. Yes, yes, I know this can be manipulated but I still think that it would be of great perceived value (and would still be less open to manipulation then current complete lack of rules on the matter!).
See also my other comment that will appear below: #6.
Did Eddie receive an invitation? One might have hoped so.
Last edited by markrlondon; 4th March 2015 at 01:20.
Agree with Dom's comments re the BHI. The courses I attended were very good, but the qualifications pathway they offered wasn`t appropriate (in my view) for someone wanting to specialise solely in the repair and service of watches.
As for the parts supply situation, I`d welcome a scenario where the BHI set a relevent exam and practical tests to assess an individual's skills level. Provided the individual passes, the manufacturers should then be happy to supply him with parts. This won`t happen, but I see no good reason why it shouldn`t.
I think an easier route into repairing should be available for enthusiasts/hobbyists to get started; weekend courses would be ideal and it would give folks the chance to try it and get an appreciation of what's involved. This would give people chance to learn the basics and get started, to a point where they can self-develop in their own time by working on old watches at their leisure. I would've loved to have done this whilst still working, but the only courses available were 5 day residential and that's quite a commitment when you've got limited holidays with your job. It was only after taking early retirement that I got chance to do this aged 50something........it's not the best time of your life for learning new skills!
There's going to be a real shortage of repairers in years to come; the big manufacturers will have their own people and there will be a limited number of accredited independents. That'll cover the prestige watches (at a price) but who's going to service the Seikos and older watches with sentimental value? Currently, an an old heirloom watch can often be brought up to reliable running condition for under £150, but would people be willing to pay £400+?..........that's what it'll end up costing because the only people left who can fix watches will need to charge big money to cover the equipment/accreditation costs.
Paul
In the case of Time Factors it's not inferior foreign product but superior foreign product! It's important to differentiate and to not throw out the baby with the bathwater. (But see my comment on a "British Made" mark above).Hmm, it would be interesting to learn what they make of the various Timefactors brands. Historic British brand names on watches designed in Britain and manufactured in Germany.
This is why I wonder of Eddie has been invited to this do. I would have thought his experience and input would be of great value.
Last edited by markrlondon; 4th March 2015 at 01:19.
Agree with Dom's comments re the BHI. The courses I attended were very good, but the qualifications pathway they offered wasn`t appropriate (in my view) for someone wanting to specialise solely in the repair and service of watches.
As for the parts supply situation, I`d welcome a scenario where the BHI set a relevent exam and practical tests to assess an individual's skills level. Provided the individual passes, the manufacturers should then be happy to supply him with parts. This won`t happen, but I see no good reason why it shouldn`t.
I think an easier route into repairing should be available for enthusiasts/hobbyists to get started; weekend courses would be ideal and it would give folks the chance to try it and get an appreciation of what's involved. This would give people chance to learn the basics and get started, to a point where they can self-develop in their own time by working on old watches at their leisure. I would've loved to have done this whilst still working, but the only courses available were 5 day residential and that's quite a commitment when you've got limited holidays with your job. It was only after taking early retirement that I got chance to do this aged 50something........it's not the best time of your life for learning new skills! A chance to get a taste for it at an early age would be ideal, to give people the opportunity to make a career change into watch repairing.
There's going to be a real shortage of repairers in years to come; the big manufacturers will have their own people and there will be a limited number of accredited independents. That'll cover the prestige watches (at a price) but who's going to service the Seikos and older watches with sentimental value? Currently, an an old heirloom watch can often be brought up to reliable running condition for under £150, but would people be willing to pay £400+?..........that's what it'll end up costing because the only people left who can fix watches will need to charge big money to cover the equipment/accreditation costs.
The meeting the OP referred to sounds like a back-slapping talking shop to me.......it's likely to give attendees a warm feeling but I fear it'll achieve nothing. I`d love to be proved wrong.
Paul
Paul
I fear you'll be correct. This is Britain, afterall. Full of good ideas, lacking in action, fearing any kind of change.
P.S. But let's hope something genuinely productive comes out of it. Constant negativity doesn't help.
Last edited by markrlondon; 4th March 2015 at 05:10. Reason: Add p.s.
Eddie has not been invited, he doesn't have an "in house" movement.
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
I've just re-read the invite; edits in BOLD
I'm sure you're right, although there's nothing that suggests that there will be any back-slapping at the conference - more likely to be face-slapping, given some of the views aired over the past year or so.
Getting the right people talking is exactly what's required if there is to be a unified British watchmaking industry. Now, I'm not saying that I advocate such an industry, or that this is even the right way forward (there hasn't been a self-supporting high-end watchmaking industry in this country for two centuries, so it's going to be a challenge, whatever happens). But conversations are required if there's to be any chance of leveraging the British brand and the good work done by many within the industry.
I've been looking closely at the Horology BA up at Birmingham, and hope to visit the Open Day over the summer. Seems as though there's an alternate approach being taken by some to get the BHI qualifications, while also producing well-rounded, tech-savvy watchmakers.
Last edited by Broussard; 5th March 2015 at 17:35. Reason: I've just re-read the invite
Ah, if that's the requirement then the meeting room will be pretty full. What with Roger, and... um...
What!!!!
They are so jealous of your succes, the don't even dare to invite you I guess.
Well, without all this ladida you are singlehandedly putting the "Great Britain" label on the map.
In house my.....
Daddel.
Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!
"in house" as in Bremont "in house"?
By that category I could get in with my spanners?
I think it is a real shame Eddie / TF hasn't been invited... I mean, apart from CWL and Bremont who else is there that the average person might associate with British watches... Robert Loomes? Roger Smith? People might know them, but who buys them?
And they're meeting at Watford Football Club.... British horology is all glamour. Audemars Piguet must be quaking.
Yeah... you would think a more appropriate location could be found - Greenwich would be my choice.
That is very disappointing indeed.
You've had movements customised. By the standards of some others you could have called those in house. ;-)
I await the outcome of this meeting with interest.
Despite my cynicism, I would genuinely love to be proved wrong.
Paul
Very much agreed.
Interesting article on BBC News that Swansea could not replace the local horologist they employed to wind (& I assume maintain) their clocks today.
The web article does not state so but the BBC R4 radio article said there was only one Fellow of the BHI in Wales ? (Mr Mitchell)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-s...wales-31728751
Just shows the skills shortfall this game is facing.
PM me if you get to it and i'll see if i can be around.. i should have finished the first year!
Last edited by minkle; 4th March 2015 at 21:50.
Will do. Thanks for the offer.
"Around 90 of the most prominent figures currently working in British horology have confirmed their attendance."
I am surprised that there are even that many!
So who else do we think will be attending, apart from the Bremont boys and the Chr. Ward crew?
Senior marketing teams from Timpsons, Debenhams InTime, the Watch Lab... All those horology big guns.
Although I am sure there is a (worsening) skills shortage, I nevertheless find it implausible that in the whole of south Wales there are no watch or clock repairers who could do the job of maintaining Swansea's municipal clocks. Could it be that they just aren't willing to pay a decent rate
In fact, reading the article it seems that they have someone to do the work but for some reason did not renew his contract. Hmm...
I've given this some thought and I would be hard-pressed to come up with a list of 90 names of people involved in British watch manufacturing, I'd love to see the list. I suspect only a handful of companies are represented, all thinking that they represent British watchmaking but as we all know, they don't.
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
It does sound a bit like when government consults with 'stakeholders' for some kind of new meddling scheme. The 'stakeholders' who are taken notice of often seem to me large corporations and the public, those in whose name everything is being done, get very little say or are seemingly ignored.
Who does?
It's not a facetious question, I really do not know whether anyone does...
Edit: I wrote this at the end of last year in response to Smith's open letter and various other things:
Open letters are useful, but so are consistent definitions, technology, innovation, history. We have the principals, as well as the supporting cast; we might pull together a quite staggering production if we only had a director. But, as with so many walks of life, there really is no incentive to work together. Roger was right to pull out economic reasons as the driving force behind using Swiss movements, but it’s also the driving force behind just about every other decision that’s made. The success of the last horological revival, for example, the high-grade movements so lauded by Loomes and others, was a product of the economic environment of the thirties, rather than a romantic return to British watchmaking.
Dr James Nye has written a quite remarkable history of Smiths Industries (now Smiths Group), the last British manufacture, that eventually diversified into everything from autopilots to airport body scanners. The success of the English, Welsh and indeed Scottish clock and watchmaking factories was largely due to their ability to be repurposed in times of war, rather than the inherent quality of their products. Yes, the 27.CS is a cool thing. Yes, of course the Cal.0104 19 and 25 jewel Imperial movements developed at the high-grade workshops in Cheltenham are worth looking at again. But they are old movements, hardly suitable for the watches we wear today. What we need is to be able to draw on the past, but look to other industries, whether it be medical (for their use of innovative materials, often on a small scale), sporting (Formula 1 is often mentioned) or technological (silicon, LIGA, 3D printing). The future of British watchmaking, on a large scale, cannot just be about the hand-polishing of staggeringly beautiful movements.
The one thing I have learned over the past few years, is that I don’t have all the answers – I’m not even sure that I have the right questions.
Last edited by Broussard; 5th March 2015 at 12:33.
It has only taken a livelihood threatening decision made in Switzerland to bring about this meeting.
It's worth remembering that if it wasn't for Eddie's entrepreneurial talents, the historical names of Smiths, Precista, Sewills (I could go on), might be in foreign ownership. They should be nice to Eddie.
amen to that - lets not forget that UK was the horological centre of the universe before red tape and costs pushed it all switzerlands way....
I get the strong impression that the kind of people organising this sort of thing might not be the kind of people who were even aware that Smiths, Precista, etc. have been resurrected, much less that it was done by a Briton.
- - - Updated - - -
At risk of taking this thread off-topic, was it red tape and costs or poor business decisions (or a combination)?
There have been at least four epochs within British horological history. The last epoch was spearheaded by the heavily subsidised Smiths watch and clock business, but this wasn't so much killed off by red tape, as economics. Without subsidies and protectionism, it wasn't profitable. As for the previous epoch, well, we were just casing up Swiss movements, having largely lost the ability to produce our own high quality escapements, because we had failed to keep up with the times, allowing the American (and then Swiss) manufacturing processes to make our labour-intensive techniques obselete.
The removal of red tape killed Smiths watches. Without government support and the threat of war, they just couldn't keep up. Imported goods from Eastern Europe flooded the market, leading to the closure of the clock factories. The high-grade movements never really made any money, and the quartz crisis was the end of watchmaking as we knew it. The last throw of the dice was the electronic movement venture with Tissot, but that failed. By the end, they were selling cheap Swiss mechanical movements. The only real input from Smiths was the name on the dial.
Last edited by Broussard; 5th March 2015 at 14:37.
A couple of weeks ago I stumbled upon several displays of historical British horology in Liverpool Museum.
Included were large scale working models of several escapement mechanisms. There was a double wheel vertical escapement used on watches made in the North West of England. Although a number were made in Liverpool from the 1760s, Ormskirk makers became devotees in the 1800s, hence the name The 'Ormskirk Verge' - blimey I thought, that's near to my neck of the woods.
As you might expect, there was another display of Marine Chronometers, including one from Joseph Sewill. Here are some of the names of the other local manufacturers whose movemens were on display alongside the date of manufacture:
Gerald Hornby & Sons 1815
Litherland & Davies 1826
JR Cameron 1840
Joseph Preston, Prescot 1870
Thomas Mercer, St Albans 1880
I left feeling rather melancholy; it was like ancient history, not irrelevant but trying to tell me something.
Last edited by forpetesake; 5th March 2015 at 20:11.
So, anyone has any news on what happened on that meeting?
There were 12 pages of notes taken by James Buttery from WatchPro Magazine. A few Tweets from other attendees but nothing of substance.
Didn't find anything on watchpro.com.
Do you have a link?
It's not up yet.
Not wanting to show disrespect to James Buttery/ Watchpro but I'm sure they don't make their own "in house" movements either!
Whilst I think it's a great idea in principle, I really don't think anything is going to come of it.
Regardless, he appears to the be the only journalist who was invited, and therefore the best source of info. Unless, of course, you're a Guild member?
It certainly wasn't limited to those who make their own in house movements. That was a joke made earlier in the thread. The gist seems to have been supply issues, especially for members who repair watches for a living.
The Guild didn't Tweet (@bwcmguild)
@SMichlmayr tried to get a conversation going on Twitter:
My favourite topic was the use of the word British for manufacture / retail. What are your views on this?
(@SMichlmayr)
Giles from Bremont was there:
A rare gathering of the British watch industry today in Watford, lovely to see !
(@GilesEnglish)
Chr. Ward London didn't mention it (@ChrisWardLondon) - nothing on Forum or 'blog either.
Robert Loomes has only Tweeted twice
Can't see anything from @SchofieldWatch (but don't know whether they were actually there)
My tutor at uni went, i've not heard anything since.
It appears I'm not one of them.One watchmaker described it as the first time his colleagues had gathered in one place for 54 years when, at the beginning of March, the British Watch and Clockmakers Guild (BWCMG) called an extraordinary meeting of around 90 individuals involved in horology in the UK.
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
So it seems and that, for me, raises three questions:
- are you a member of the BWCMG?
- on what basis were people invited (was it members only)?
- who was at the meeting?
Bob
I recall you stated at the time of the announcement (i.e. before the meeting) that you hadn't been invited. Did you contact the Guild for an invite?
Following on from a groundbreaking conference of watchmakers back in March, organisers the British Watch and Clock Maker’s Guild has set up an Industry Action Fund to pay for data-gathering research.
The Guild is seeking to raise an initial £70,000 to gather vital industry intelligence via a survey and implement action plans, with conference organiser Steven Domb tasked with leading this next stage.
He told WatchPro.com: “The Conference unsurprisingly showed a wide range of opinions on the topics discussed, however, a common stumbling block to progress on all the issues was a lack of basic data on the economic value of the industry to the UK economy, the number of people employed, their requirements, and their opinions on the key issues. Without this fundamental information, it is impossible to obtain support from central government and many other organisations on issues such as restrictive and anti-competitive practices, and training and apprenticeships."
The conference was deemed ‘an excellent starting point’, resulting in increasing discussions between various industry bodies and a willingness for a ‘co-ordinated approach’.
Domb added: “A credible set of data along with a competent analysis is the key starting point for any strategic plan, so the first project for the Industry Action Fund will be to build a database of all individuals and organisations involved in the industry, and to conduct an active survey of their needs and views. The next stage will be to take the results to the relevant authorities as part of an overall plan to maintain consumer choice, raise the profile of the trade, and obtain a proper share of the support resources available.”
The first surprising result of the research was the finding that the watch and clock industry in the UK may be two and half times larger than first thought. The Guild had predicted that around 4,000 people made at least part of their income from watch and clock making in the UK. Initial investigations into potential data sources for the survey suggests that the actual number might be as high as 10,000.
The Guild has stated that all monies given to the fund will be kept apart from the Guild’s regular income, will be accounted for separately, and will only be used for actions in line with the aims of the fund. All contributions will be receipted. The Guild is asking all individuals and organisations to support ‘to whatever level they can’.
Those wishing to contribute to the Industry Action Fund are requested to send an email with contact details and the amount offered to af@bwcmg.org. The Guild will respond with instructions on how money can be paid in.
Article from Watchpro Magazine online.
Last edited by PJ S; 2nd June 2015 at 17:00.
Hi all,
My name is Steve Domb.I am the person who devised and organised the Conference, and I am now Project Manager of the Industry Action Fund.
I have joined your group in the hope of throwing a bit more light on what is happening, and with the intention of giving as positive an outlook as possible on the future for British Watchmaking.
I am not a professional horologist (but I am a fellow addict). I came to the craft as a collector, and got involved with the very early days of the Epping Forest Horology Centre, where I spent 8 years on the Committee, and was the Chairman for the two years up until last June. I have been working hard within the Industry on education matters, and got involved in the Parts Supply issue last year because it always came up in the conversations I was having, and frankly, if there are no parts, what is the point in educating new Watchmakers?
Over the years that I have been involved, I have lost count of the number of times people have told me “It’s too late”, or “No one will help”, or “You’ll never be able to do that”, but so far none of that has proved true. My experience is that if you think the thing through, put a bit of effort in, and show some belief, it is amazing what pops out. When I looked at the parts situation, it was clear that we needed a single, strong, united voice through one trade body if anything was going to happen, and that had to be the start point. I don’t want to get into the politics of the various bodies that we have in the UK, but the Guild is where I went because membership is open to all in the trade, they represent the largest number of professionals, and when I spoke to them, they were the most keen to lead on these issues. What they didn’t have was resources, but I knew from my contact with Anthony Cousins that he was willing to support, so I got everyone together and the Guild Industry Strategy Conference last March was the result. Once again, when I began to organise the Conference the same “You’ll never be able to do that”, or “This one won’t meet with that one” stories surfaced, and once again they proved to be rubbish. You can read the Watch Pro report on the Conference here https://www.cousinsuk.com/pdf/16-18_...CONFERENCE.pdf . I’m not going to claim that one meeting solved the problems of the world, but it did demonstrate that you can do a lot if you just have a little bit of carefully applied resources, and it also demonstrated that people are willing to work for the common good, even if they have different views about the market. The biggest thing that the Conference demonstrated was the need for Data and Research in order to get support on any issue. It’s all very well individuals writing to their MP or MEP, but unless you can credibly show that thousands of jobs are at risk from anti competitive practices (they are), that consumer choice is suffering (it is), that kids out there would love the chance to learn clock and watch making (they would), and that jobs will be created if the Government would support us (they will be created), then you can’t get a hearing from anyone of importance.
So the logical next step was the Industry Action Fund. Give everyone the chance to contribute and show that they believe in their industry. Get the facts and figures and then start to tackle the issues. That is how we develop a proper growing future.
So to answer Bob's questions and other peoples points:-
No, you didn't have to be a member of the Guild to be invited. A group of us tried to think of a list of people who were representative of all aspects of the trade, and then I hit the phones and started sending invites. It wasn't dominated by big companies, there were all sorts there, and those that turned down invites were still asking to be kept in the loop about updates.
Did I miss a bunch of people off? Of course, the Conference went from idea to finished item in three months, and I don't have a huge knowledge of who's who in the industry. But I can say that no one was deliberately excluded, and we were quite open in asking invitees if there was anyone else they could suggest. Sorry if I missed anyone off. Please introduce yourselves to me. (Eddie, I'm a newbie here, please tell me more about who you are and your background)
I can't publish a list of the attendees without getting their individual consent. I'm not ducking the issue, but some of those present had genuine concerns about the Swiss ending their approved status if they went public.
Watford FC was chosen because of cost and transport considerations. It was a very nice venue and was one third the price of central London with free parking, several major motorways nearby, Underground, and Mainline trains. I recommend the venue, the staff and food were great.
Can I plead with you not to put down anyone's efforts to make a business in the UK. "In house movement" comments are just playing into the hands of those who want to finish us off. I'm not going to comment about anyone's business, but I will say that Bremont have demonstrated that it is possible to build up a substantial British business in watchmaking, and we can all benefit from that.
Can I also plead with you not to assume that any of the public figures in the industry are raving self publicists. In my experience they are not, and I can tell you from personal experience that a raft of them including Roger Smith, Giles and Nick English, Anthony Cousins, Robert Loomes, Christopher Ward, Simon Michlmayr, Christian Dannemann, Philip Whyte, and a whole bunch more that I could name drop will go out of their way to help you if you ask them, and show them a good plan as to what you think can be achieved.
As to the number of people in the industry, prepare yourself for a surprise. When I started planning the conference I was reckoning on 40 to 50 attendees. In the end we had over 90 accepting invites. That, however pales into insignificance. I recently saw a current database of people and organisations who describe themselves as earning all or part of their living from Clock and Watch making. There were over 6,000 of them, so I reckon there are between 7,000 and 8,000 individuals doing work on the repair side of Horology and I don't know how many more working in retail, admin, and associated trades, but I'm going to do my best to find out. If we are going to solve anything, then we need to unite and start to talk positively about each others achievements and attributes, not default to criticism and mild derission. We just HAVE to change.
In my view, the Swiss are relying on permeating a defeated attitude amongst the independent trade, and are feeding on our lack of unity, in order to drive through a total domination of the market. My message would be that if you want to stop that, and ensure that your customers continue to have a choice about who services their watches, then stop feeling like a victim and start speaking up, participate in a united approach and contribute your support. If you don’t do something, you will lose, so why wouldn’t you join in?
Right now I am fund raising like fury to try and resource a proper response. I can use all the help I can get. If anyone wants to chip in please email me to iaf@bwcmg.org
Nice to meet you all. I'm happy to join in and answer any questions that I can.
Regards
Steve Domb
A Briton named Eddie
Edit: Mate - Eddie is Edward Platts, owner of Timefactors and our host and sole administrator of TZ-UK under the name Swanbourne.
Last edited by forpetesake; 17th June 2015 at 08:54.
Evening Steven.
Thank you for taking the time to communicate with us directly, and I'm sure it goes without saying that we all hope that the rolling ball starts to gather momentum.
Please do continue to keep us informed of progress, and wearing your collector's hat, join in the various discussions or start one of your own.
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