Reply With QuoteSo that's all Subs, Sea Dwellers and Daytonas that have to go to RSC. Interesting move, very popular pieces = more work/revenue for RSC...
What about GMTs??
I have just received this email from Duncan following a request for my 2001 Rolex Submariner 14060M to be serviced.
It's a bit of a blow to be honest.
I thought others might be interested.
scooter
Good Afternoon
Thank you for your enquiry.
Unfortunately Head Office changed their policy on January 1st this year and now want all Submariners returning to Kings Hill for repair/service work. For now, at least, I’m unable to help you.
I hope we can be of service to you in the future.
Best wishes
Duncan
Proprietor
genesiswatchmaking.co.uk
016977 3123
So that's all Subs, Sea Dwellers and Daytonas that have to go to RSC. Interesting move, very popular pieces = more work/revenue for RSC...
What about GMTs??
The way the email reads, I'd say yes...
So they make watch repairers spend a lot of time and money training to become accredited and then start limiting the number of watches they're allowed to service?
The thought of sending a vintage Sub to Rolex for service does not fill me with confidence and I really don't want to send them my Explorer 2, I hope Duncan is still allowed to service those in five years time.
Well I just dropped a vintage sub off with Bill yesterday and he didnt mention it, 3 week turnaround he said!Originally Posted by learningtofly
Maybe there's an age cut-off? Or particular (current?) movements have to go to RSC?
Why is this not considered illegal behaviour?
Tricks like this were stamped out of the motor trade a long time ago.
Because EU law doesn't apply to Swiss watch manufacturers - Switzerland is not in the EU...
Rolex UK are in the UK though ;)
I have no idea, but wouldn't there need to be a test case in court to deem it unlawful ?
If parts are only supplied from Rolex SA to Rolex UK, then only Rolex UK can service those watches. That'll be how they're getting round any laws.
Makes you wonder if RSC will increase service and parts prices also in line with the expected increase in watches - £500 + per service.
Not quite the same thing though is it?
The motor trade was that your car had to go back to the dealer for parts, which are not manufacturer made or necessarily specific.
Rolex make all the parts and supply all the parts, so they can choose where they go.
Just what I was thinking! I`ve met Bill several times and he's definitely one of the good guys. Decisions such as these are hard to justify and they can have a severe impact on the livelihood of accredited repairers. It's madness, it doesn`t make sense.
Rolex seem to run roughshod over everyone, including the ADs and repairers, and Omega are heading the same way.
Paul
There's a bad moon on the rise.
There's no such thing as Rolex UK.
Very cleverly done it is too, Rolex have a Rolex UK head office, it isn't a separate company from Rolex SA, as for example, Rolex USA is. It's just a satellite of Rolex SA abroad
It makes sense to the Rolex bank account...
I agree it is unfair, but it's business, if Rolex want to do it, as the sole supplier of their products and aftercare they can, it also keeps all the income 'in-house'.
I believe Rolex have been in court, possibly just in the USA, over this for several decades. Restriction of parts to independents is illegal for pretty much every other industry. But Rolex are a private company and some very expensive lawyers to tie this up in court for a long time more.
Is it?
I don't think that there is a law stating that you have to supply someone your products just because they want them. They're your products and you can decide who to sell them to.
What is known as an "exclusive distributorship". Such an arrangement would allow Rolex UK to operate without regard to market pressures, and by that standard this practice would / should be of interest to the CMA, but the fact is - they don't care; it is one thing to gouge a single mum over the repair cost of her Nissan Micra... it is quite another to gouge some stockbroker over the cost to polish up one of his Rolexes.
Very true Cirrus, it's not the working man and their way of getting to work that's being wronged...
Why wouldn't they?!
There is a Rolex Watch Company Ltd. incorporated in 1915 with a registered office at St. James' square... they will do ;)
Beat me to it - that's who invoices you when they service your watch, so you are dealing with a UK company.
A company trading in the EU has to abide by EU law - it doesn't matter where its head office is. See for example Gazprom's problems at the moment.
If that's the case, the Rolex can't be breaking any laws then?
I suppose not but am not really a competition law expert!
As someone said earlier I guess they can't be forced to sell parts to people.
Do other mid to high end brands supply parts to third parties eg AP, VC, JLC? I don't know but assume not. Seiko spring drives have to be serviced by Seiko.
With SDs one reason for RSC only servicing was pressure testing - maybe there is a similar excuse here.
It'll be a control of parts thing. All the high end Swiss guys do it, and it seems like Omega and Rolex are going to do the same.
To be honest, I'm surprised they ever set up independent service centres in the first place.
Traditionally, watches were serviced by independent repairers who often had jewellers shops on high streets. Manufacturers were only too pleased to supply information and spare parts. All that started to change in the 80s when some companies decided to stop supplying parts to the repair trade. Over the last 15 years it's got worse; parts have been restricted and prices have gone up. Not only has the cost of buying a Swiss watch risen sharply to a point where it doesn`t make sense, the cost of ownership via servicing and repairs has rocketed needlessly.
Eventually, there will be NO independent repairers. I honestly think the trade will die out completely and the only option will be the manufacturer's service centre. That's totally wrong, there's no technical reason for it, but the Swiss quest for control will cause it to happen. Who would invest in training and the equipment to gain accreditation when there's a risk that the rug will pulled from under you at the whim of the Swiss? Far too risky.
Some folks actually get a kick out of paying a lot of money to have their watch serviced....I call it the 'warm feeling' effect. It reinforces their belief that they own something highly specialised that NEEDS to go back to the manufacturer! Whether it's self-delusion or whether they genuinely believe it is immaterial, it's a genuine phenomenon. The more sensible amongst us are smart enough to realise we're being ripped off and will either seek alternatives....or at least accept we're being ripped off. Sadly, there will be no alternatives where watches are concerned.....the alternative will be to buy something cheap and bin it when it gives trouble, and frankly I think this is the logical thing to do.
If I couldn`t service my own watches I`d be selling the majority of my collection, and I suspect many folks who own several watches will be thinking seriously about the cost to maintain them in the future. Ironically, I only got into servicing because my local guy was crap, it was nothing to do with the prices he charged....but that's turning the clock back a few years.
Paul
The big question in your case Paul is whether you'll be able to source the parts to keep your collection serviced.
I must confess to seriously considering selling my higher value Swiss watches and buying a few Seikos!
I've asked Duncan for clarification for you all as I know he's not on here.
This is his reply.....
Dear Jason
Good to hear from you and thanks for bringing this to my attention. I am not a member of the TZ forum or any watch forum as I want my customers to be able to speak completely openly about my work. Therefore I would be greatful if you would copy this clarification and post it in the thread for me. If you do so please copy the entire email so that customers receive the full information.
Background: as of January 1st 2015 Rolex UK implemented a policy regarding any sports model with flat case sides such as Submariner, GMT master, Explorer. Their reasoning is to improve and standardise the level of case work throughout the network of service agents. The new policy is that only repair centres which have the latest lapping machine sytem to deal with the flat case sides, should be supplied with case material specific for those models. The new equipment costs in the region of ?16000 + VAT and requires an initial vist to head office to place the order followed by a free one week course to train with the new machine once it arrives from Geneva. ?Clive Gunner who oversees this at Rolex explained that some candidates are not suitable for the new system and others may need more than one week to train.
Genesis Watchmaking: we remain close partners with Rolex for watch servicing and hope to purchase the new equipment and complete the training later in the year. However, Rolex and ourselves wish us to expand our facilities which will involve a move to larger premises. Only once that is complete will we apply to purchase the new equipment. We’ll update our website once the new facilities are complete. All other Rolex models that we used to service are still supported at Genesis and we have a busy throughput of such watches on an ongoing basis. Customers who have had Rolex cases polished and refinished in our workshops will be well aware of the quality of the work that we can already achieve.
Clearly there will be service centres with a stock of Submariner (etc) case material to use up, or are among the first to have purchased the new lapping machine system. Indeed, here at Genesis we have such material in stock but we are reserving it for work that is expected to arrive from some well-established customers or for watches which were booked in prior to Jan 1st 2015. The irony is that many collectors do not wish to have vintage sports models refurbished in order to preserve as much of the original case shape as possible and it is these jobs that we will use the last of our case material on to achieve the waterproof guarantee that we and Rolex insist upon. (Movement material for these models is standard across the oyster range and not restricted).
As far as all other Rolex models are concerned we are open for business as usual.
Those of you who have used us in the past will know that we always strive to do the right thing for the customer and remian within the manufactures strict guidelines.
Thank you and best wishes to TZ-UK members who remain a very important customer base for us.
It would be a real loss if the accreditation goes, I always like having a chat with whose going to be working on my watches (cars or anything else really). The idea of dropping my watch off with a salesman so he can send it off really doesn't have the same appeal.
Last edited by Barton Red; 28th January 2015 at 20:13.
@964rs
Well that's definitely good news for the future.
scooter
Last edited by scooter; 28th January 2015 at 20:12.
I have a number of watches that I can't imagine letting go of... and equally cannot imagine spending large amounts of money maintaining. To this end I have done my best to accumulate spares - and even spare movements - against the day they need attention.
This works well enough for my relatively modest pieces, but it doesn't seem a likely proposition for the Omega and Rolex collector; it saddens me somewhat that there are a whole raft of watches that I couldn't justify buying simply because I have no confidence that spares and repairs will be available / affordable 10 years down the line.
It is a good job I quite like no-name vintage watches really ;)
To be fair to rolex, when I had my yachtmaster serviced at kings hill rsc, the technician was telling me how they had a machine which was the only one in the country and normally found at their headquarters in Switzerland. Said machine was a laser guided refinishing machine capable of taking off the most minuscule of case material whilst retaining the original case shape. How many of us have seen wonky polishing or over polishing of cases. No disrespect to the independents but I cannot see how they can perform the same level of work as rolex (with all of their cutting edge tools). I also think that rolex are so pedantic about absolutely everything that I would have complete faith in their work over a independent. Like I said, not knocking the independents and I'm sure they do a great job but for me I'm going to an RSC all the time when in need of a service.
He clearly doesn't understand the TZ-UK membership if he fears his presence might restrict what people may say about him ;)
This is why I get so many vintage Rolex in for servicing. Rolex don't have the parts for the really old ones, so me not being an account holder makes no difference. Especially as I have large amounts of parts and known people who have the parts I don't.
To clarify I'm talking 60's and earlier. Back to the early hunter movements used in the first oyster cased and prima watches.
It is a shame Rolex keep moving away from vintage and sympathetic vintage, but I understand why they do it.
As anyone who has seen the lapping machine thread on here will realise the real benefit of these machines on certain shapes of cases. But on cases with few to no flat edges they are useless.
You can get them cheaper from places like beco tecnic, but that won't be rolex approved....
How about dropping it off to an RSC and speaking with a rolex trained watchmaker who only works on rolex all day every day? I have and they are super passionate. If you drop your watch off to a high street store all your going to get is a longer waiting time and maybe a higher service bill for their "services". I.e sending your watch off in the post.
A Rolex accredited independent is assessed by Rolex to be able to provide an equivalent service - so I'd have little problem in using Duncan, or Bill for that matter. If the price is very similar I'd use Rolex for a straight forward service, or Duncan if I had a particular/specific request.
It's just a matter of time...
£16k is a serious wedge of money for an independent to have to cough up, but what if a customer doesn’t want to have their case refinished: why can’t the independents do a movement-only service without having to buy the machine?
R
Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.
I can understand ( to some degree ) Rolex wanting to provide a very specific case/bracelet refinish standard but how is this related to supplying the parts for mechanical servicing by independents.
I've spoken to the RSC guys a few times, undoubtably highly skilled, knowledgable and decent chaps, difference for me is its 200 or so miles rather than the 15 or so to drop the watch with Bill.
When I spoke to RSC they quoted me the same service price as the AD.
This stood out me too in Duncan's response, it would be interesting if anyone can clarify?
In fairness to Rolex, £16k for a specialist machine sounds quite reasonable in the scheme of things. A lot of people spend that on a van.
Good oto hear Duncan is making the investment.
My first thought was steel blanks to effectively be able to make new cases. A later comment however led me to believe he's perhaps talking about seals, crown and other components that attach to the case.
Case material refers to parts that are case-specific rather than movement parts. Crowns, seals, crystals, dials, hands, bezels etc.
Now the situation's being clarified, I completely understand it, and I can see the reasoning......though I`m not sure I totally agree with it.
As Dom stated earlier, a lapping machine is the only way to refinish certain cases to factory standard, but a good guy can get pretty close using other methods. Close.....but under a magnifier you'd spot the difference. Rolex clearly want a 'standard' cosmetic finish that matches the original exactly. and that's the reason for insisting on the £16K machine and the training. However, many owners would be quite happy with 'normal' refinishing to a good standard, and that's what the independents have been producing. I had a 16610 Sub serviced and refinished by Bill Rice a couple of years back and I was happy with it......and as one who refinishes watches myself it's fair to say I`m a fussy bugger, albeit a realist rather than a perfectionist.
£16K is a lot of money to lay out, and we all know who'll end up paying for it. It's a LOT of money just to be able to get those bevels right on a Sub case!
Ironically, owners of vintage Subs would be horrified if their watch came back looking factory-fresh!
Paul
Correct on your second point, as opposed to movement parts
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