Reply With QuoteWhat do you mean by government ID?Originally Posted by Joppers
I'm dealing with an Italian seller at the moment (via Chrono24). He requires a scan of a government ID before the sale can be completed. Obviously I'm a bit nervous about this, is it a normal practise for watch sales?
I'm wondering if I can block out some of the details on the scan, i.e. DOB.
Thanks
Last edited by Joppers; 30th November 2014 at 19:18.
What do you mean by government ID?
Sorry, passport. I think it relates to article 128 on this page: http://www.sanzioniamministrative.it...ULPS/TULPS.htm
"Manufacturers, traders, merchants and other persons mentioned in articles 126 and 127 can not perform operations on ancient things or used except with the people provided the identity card of another document with photograph, from the administration of the State .
They must keep records of the transactions referred to in the first paragraph that perform daily, in which are recorded the identity of those with whom the operations themselves are carried out and the other information required by the regulation.
This register shall be presented to the officers and security officials, for their every request.
People who perform operations in the first paragraph with the operators above, are required to prove their identity in the manner prescribed.
The operator, who has bought precious things, can not alter them or alienate them if not ten days after purchase, except that in the case of items bought at fondachieri or manufacturers or public auction."
Last edited by Joppers; 30th November 2014 at 19:21.
For a watch sale? Personally, I wouldn't be sending a copy of my passport to anyone, for anything.
It could be argued that you should be asking for his passport as at some point in the transaction he'll have both the watch and your money.
Rich.
The vendor has probably asked because there is a national ID card scheme in Italy, the cards must be carried by law and IIRC contain address details. You should send your driving licence details as this has your address, unlike your passport.
If you have any shred of doubt then simply walk away.
This is a simple sale between people in two EU countries. No different to walking into a shop and buying something.
In my experience, (1) Italians actually do carry & use the ID cards required by the State and (2) are affected/infected by their country's leaden bureaucracy.
(In reality, ID cards are routinely abused/misused in Italy and it's not uncommon, for example, for teenagers to use their older siblings' cards to buy alcohol et cetera.)
In your seller's case, he doesn't seem to know that ID cards aren't used in the UK (thank Goodness), which many Italians don't know, either.
So, unless someone can come up with a scam-based reason why you shouldn't send him a scan of your passport, do it.
Last edited by Tinker; 30th November 2014 at 22:27.
This isn't unusual in countries requiring ID. I wouldn't send a scan of the passport, but would of the driver's licence. The whole "government ID" thing is very common in the US, where it gives sellers a certainty that it's official and real.
Having lived in the US, took me a while to get used to the idea of not being required to have any kind of an ID, and Brits general resistance to it (even though most end up with a driver's licence, national insurance cards, credit cards, and dozens of other cards...)
I have been asked before, when making payment by credit card. Sent a scanned copy of my drivers licence and that was it.
Thanks for all the replies :)
I don't have a driving license, so I'll have to send the passport details if I want to complete the sale.
Having seen a few programs on the BBC about identity fraude, I personally wouldn't give him a scan of my passport.
Daddel.
Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!
Why would you need to prove you are real in order to be allowed to pay money for a used watch?
Come on, are we supporting even THIS encroachment of privacy?
We are all supposed to be presumed innocent, bona fide, unless proven otherwise remember?!
Stuff it, I would say.
For anti-money laundering reasons and to restrict the disbursement of proceeds of crime.
This will get more and more common for substantial transactions (not just watches) especially if not being concluded face to face and / or payment by bank transfer.
I thought it might have something to with money laundering. You can always cover up a couple of digits of your copy for additional security
As you said, just delete the date of birth.
As I said, unless someone can come up with a specific reason why you shouldn't send a scan of your passport (without the d.o.b.), do it.
There's a sticky thread over on WUS about avoiding being scammed and it contains an ongoing discussion about the pros & cons of asking for and handing over confidential details like passport numbers. Several posters suggesting asking for proof of identity and address before parting with money or goods.
Another idea is using an escrow account service
Err, nope, would not send details/copy of PP.
Escrow is a non-starter. Well, in watch sales, anyway.
What is the value of the item? It may or may not be more than the amount covered in the Euro 4th Money Laundering Directive. Why not ask why they need your passport/ID and ask if there is any other details you can provide in its place that would help them meet their requirement/obligations.
One thing I can't stand is having to hand over my ID in Italy and some other European countries simply because I am staying there for the evening, in hotel or apartment! They seem very hung up on things for a transaction of less than 100 euros per day!
If you are not happy, don't do it - but I'd have no problems if the seller checked out as a known quantity and trust worthy.
It's just a matter of time...
it is normal to be asked for an ID when you purchase with a credit card in Italy so I am not surprised the seller is asking for one.
Let's look at this another way - is the seller on C24 an individual or a business?
If he's an individual then I'm not convinced I'd be sending my personal details (other than address to post too of course) as he has no need of them - so either he is overly cautious or you're being scammed.
If it's a business then suck it up and send the details, I had exactly the same request from a UK grey dealer (Iconic Watches) on a purchase from them a year or two ago - it's for anti money laundering and disbursement of crime proceeds - the seller is trying to ensure that they've taken reasonable measures to insure against these situations.
Assuming the seller is a business have you done your due diligence and researched the business - have they been trading long / have they a good reputation etc? If the answer is yes then ask yourself why would they be trying to scam you out of a few grand (or however much you're spending) and your identity to the detriment of a bona fide business; if the answer is no then why are you dealing with them at all?
Last edited by Mr Stoat; 1st December 2014 at 15:58.
i have a copy of my drivers license and passport both scans then have the word 'COPY' watermarked into them multiple times on the scan in diagonal fashion,
then drivers licence nuumber / passport number along with DOB are removed and watermark layer over the top and saved as a file
job done and i keep the final document electronically so can be sent on email could even change the word to the company name you send it to.
Last edited by Seamaster77; 1st December 2014 at 16:02.
Even face to face you can not pay anything hardly substantial cash anymore. If you want to pay cash the need a photocopy of your ID and report the transaction... It is reaching the point of paying cash in a restaurant for a substantial meal!
The so called money laundering reason is bs. Money laundering is not about chasing the little guy spending a few hundred, even K.
Resistance is futile apparently...
although...
my gf refused to park where she needed to enter her car's registration number in the meter. We simply went elsewhere, to a different
Money laundering regulations and policy kick in at differing thresholds and for differing items and will vary country to country - highly mobile and re-saleable items tend to get targeted (so watches / cars / jewellery etc) ... your weekly shopping or a fish and chip supper are much more likely to go unnoticed. Forget this only applying to large amounts of money - you're totally wrong there - as soon as you start transferring money the banks AML software will be looking for patterns and suspicious activity whether its £100 or £100,000.Even face to face you can not pay anything hardly substantial cash anymore. If you want to pay cash the need a photocopy of your ID and report the transaction... It is reaching the point of paying cash in a restaurant for a substantial meal!
The so called money laundering reason is bs. Money laundering is not about chasing the little guy spending a few hundred, even K.
Resistance is futile apparently...
although...
my gf refused to park where she needed to enter her car's registration number in the meter. We simply went elsewhere, to a different
Each country has differing regulations and each retailer will have different policy - and face to face transactions will be treated differently to distant selling - the most likely transactions to arouse interest are regular cross border payments for differing amounts from one originator to the same beneficiary (especially if the destination country is know for weak AML process).
If you remove the numbers/DOB from your documents what's left - is it really useful as an ID?
well its worked so far no issues, still has address on etc just those two numbers blanked out
even used it for car hire where shown the original but gave them my copy version and they hand wrote the driver number on
at the end of day it makes me feel a bit more comfortable giving them one of my versions for places require a photocopy proofs etc for records
Last edited by Seamaster77; 1st December 2014 at 16:54.
Reading apprehension you lack. I only explained that in many cases where ID is required, such as buying alcohol or prescription drugs, a government issued ID is accepted due to it being deemed less likely to be fake than your local gym membership card. I said nothing about you having to prove you are real, nor did I say I agree or disagree with the practice.
Yeas, not unheard of, but I'd blank some info for safety..
Not really – Transpact have confirmed that they have no restriction on watches or jewellery.
You could send him this one.
It's not a matter of who offers the service, but of who will use it. Escrow hasn't been popular with the watch community, has it?
That said, perhaps if a scamproof and cheap provider emerges, habits will change.
She had better not come to the UK, so. Many car parks use Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) to track all vehicles entering and exiting. It's also standard practice in just about every petrol garage (to catch people who drive off without paying for their fuel).my gf refused to park where she needed to enter her car's registration number in the meter. We simply went elsewhere, to a different
I'd tell the seller that you don't have a passport which is why you aren't going to Italy to pick it up!
Then ask him for his last five years of audited accounts and tax returns!
In all seriousness I think that if you are paying by credit card at a certain amount it must be in person, so this may be a way around it for them?
A friend of mine was a victim of exactly this, somebody somehow got hold of his ID and passport scans, managed to open bank accounts and opened credit cards under another address but under his name. This was caught by one bank because they already had him as a customer, so the address didn't match his current one so they called to check if he moved place.
I would never send scanned ID with the personal data like DOB and number of ID etc, but putting COPY all over it is also a good idea.
I had to do similar when ordering a coffee machine (about 700 euro) from Italy so I don't think it is that strange a request.
I would be wary if asked and agree with comments regarding putting copy on it - I do think is pretty normal practice in Italy though.
What's the point of writing 'copy' over it? It's a photocopied piece of of a passport. Of course it's a copy and not the real thing. The clue is in the photoCOPY.
The amount of times I've checked into a European hotel and they've either taken a copy of my passport there and then, or kept the passport for a couple of hours and returned it later, allowing them to make a 1000 copies of it if they want.
I wouldn't worry.
True (sadly).
Never heard of this. You can buy everything you want in supermarkets here...
Exactly, I didn't know either. Moreover, he asked for a passport scan probably because here in Italy our ID cards are not updated when you change your address. However, driving licences and passports are subject to this kind of updates.
Agreed, I remember having difficulty getting into a public library because I had gone out without my passport and they wanted ID to get in. The Italians I was with all had ID and were astonished I didn't have to carry ID in the UK, nor had my passport with me. I was granted access in the end, but only because there were several people who were prepared to vouch for me.
As others mention hotels routinely copy your passport so I very much doubt this is a source of harvesting ID information but is to reduce the risk to the seller in the event of fraud by the purchaser.
Often required for phone/SIM purchase abroad too.
Personally don't see it's a problem.
Seems a strange one to me. I have bought previously from Italian dealers and there was nothing like this - just a few emails, a telephone call, a bank transfer, followed by a UPS watch delivery.
I brought a watch a few months ago from Italy via the web and struck up a good relationship with the seller. He also requested ID. When I asked why he explained it's due to the high rate of crime and moving money around so to try to clamp down the seller needs proof of identity. He was very serous and apologetic but wouldn't do the deal without it or he would have been in trouble. He didn't insist on passport just some form of ID but I think it required a photo. Anyway the deal went smoothly and the watch was better than expected. Hope this helps.
Just to share - I purchased a watch from an Italian seller on Chrono24 and was not asked for any ID or passport copy
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