Air pistol

[patrick]

Only as an antique under the obsolete calibre exemption, and kept as a curio only (not to be fired). I believe the bulldog was chambered for a variety of cartridges - only those on the list apply.

I've got a fair chunk of forest over here,and I was looking for one to blast away,bothering nobody with the noise exept the local wildlife.It was the first gun I ever fired,my uncle had a good collection of old Webly&Scotts.Seems nostalgia is getting more difficult to experience.

[kungfugerbil]

I've got a fair chunk of forest over here,and I was looking for one to blast away

Edit: just noticed your location - I only have knowledge of how things go down over here. Ignore most of what I say then :)

If it's your land, the best / easiest way to blast away the cobwebs is with a 12 bore. If it's a public place, police look dimly on folks blasting away at random ;)

nostalgia is getting more difficult to experience.

Nostalgia ain't what it used to be, that's for sure. At least with something on the obselete calibre list you can own it without licence and without having a proof house deactivate it in a grotesque way.

[johnbaz]

Just dug this old iron out of the shed - resto project anyone?



This is my peashooter of choice though, great fun and there's an excellent field target range a ten minute drive from here too.

Hi

I've PM'd you


Nice AA 410 by the way


Regards, John

[Cat7]

Great thread, one of my other passions.
I have several CO2 plinkers including the Beretta FS 92 in black and in nickel with the 8 shot rotary magazine. They are fine pieces to look at and handle but in my eyes are only fun plinkers.
I then have my Weihrauchs HW45 and my HW75. The 45 is spring powered supposedly up to legal limit the 75 is totally recoil less and very accurate but around half the legal limit, both beautifully engineered and superbly finished, they are my first choice for air pistol target shooting.
The most fun CO2 plinker that I have is my Tanfoglio 1911 witness, an amazing replica bb pistol that looks very real once you have put on a nice pair of walnut handles. The action and the recoil make this pistol so much fun, they are very addictive but again not very accurate and only about 1.1 ft/lbs over the chrono so only good for fun plinking. Incidentally my FS 92s may be moving on if anyone is interested.

[demonloop]

Slightly off topic, but I have one of these and it's great fun




In 9mm, not BB. Cheap (ish) fun and remarkably accurate.

[kungfugerbil]

Slightly off topic, but I have one of these

Git.

:D

I am jealous of the NI handgun policy. Still, plenty of fun stuff still to be had over here. Just not centrefire self-loading pistols. Did I say Git?

;)

[ratty]

^^^

+1 on the git sentiment above.

To enjoy a few hours with a pistol or two I need to leave the country, so 4-6 times a year ( not nearly often enough but all I can manage) I hop on a cheap flight to Germany and blast away the cobwebs.

You're very lucky to still be trusted with short firearms, enjoy it whilst you still can.

Lucky git

[Matdaytona]

Slightly ot try putting a dribble of gun oil into the barrel this for some reason increases velocity (first did this at the tender age of 11 with my trusty old gat gun) remember being quite impressed with the results (but that was over 30yrs ago :()

[Toodlepip]

My all time favorite air pistol is a Feinwerkbau Model 65.

Completely recoil-less using the famous sliding barrel/piston assembly. A joy to shoot and very accurate.

The same mechanism was used in Feinwerkbau's 300S air rifle, which won many a medal in the Olympics.

As far as I recall all the world championships between the early 70s and 1985 were won by people using the FWB 65. I have two FWBs - a 65 with a foresight barrel weight to stabilise it and a special trigger, and a 103 single stroke pneumatic. Huge difference between the two, the 103 is much smoother, has a far better trigger and also a dry fire facility to practise trigger release. Great piece of kit!

[Huertecilla]

Slightly ot try putting a dribble of gun oil into the barrel this for some reason increases velocity (first did this at the tender age of 11 with my trusty old gat gun) remember being quite impressed with the results (but that was over 30yrs ago :()

It is caused by ´dieseling´.

It is very well explained in de Cardew book, the bible of air guns:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Airgun-Trigg...=cardew+airgun

Still contemplating to buy a Brocock system revolver. In black it's 105€ only now...

[jools]

It is caused by ´dieseling´.

It is very well explained in de Cardew book, the bible of air guns:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Airgun-Trigg...=cardew+airgun

....

Not recommended, IIRC, likely to damage the spring and maybe push the gun over the legal limit.

[Huertecilla]

Not recommended, IIRC, likely to damage the spring and maybe push the gun over the legal limit.

Well, apart from the latter, not that simple actually.

[Beaunidle]

Wow, never knew about dieseling. Just spent a little youtube time and it seems to add around 10% on the foot pounds on a .22 That would definitely push my Air Arms rifle over the limit.

Good thing I'm not going to do it then.

To be honest, not sure how well it would work with a pellet cassette anyway.

Did have a mate years ago who was messing around with convergent / divergent barrels who got stupid velocities out of a standard break-barrel rifle.

[Huertecilla]

Wow, never knew about dieseling. Just spent a little youtube time and it seems to add around 10% on the foot pounds on a .22 That would definitely push my Air Arms rifle over the limit.

Good thing I'm not going to do it then.

To be honest, not sure how well it would work with a pellet cassette anyway.

Did have a mate years ago who was messing around with convergent / divergent barrels who got stupid velocities out of a standard break-barrel rifle.

The problem with most aspects is consistency; exactly the crux of accuracy.
I can not stress enough how good for fundamental understanding the Cardew book is.

[kungfugerbil]

I really must get round to disposing of some air pistols at some point :)

Just been to the range tonight and got asked to step in and join a league team as a member dropped out. "Not a problem" said I. "Who else is in the team?"

Only a Commonwealth championship medal winner. Multiple.

Easiest trophy ever I reckon :)

[johnbaz]

I really must get round to disposing of some air pistols at some point :)

Just been to the range tonight and got asked to step in and join a league team as a member dropped out. "Not a problem" said I. "Who else is in the team?"

Only a Commonwealth championship medal winner. Multiple.

Easiest trophy ever I reckon :)

Hmmmm!!


What pistol will you use??


Cheers, John

[kungfugerbil]

Hmmmm!!

What pistol will you use??

This is smallbore rifle rather than air pistol - despite my efforts I'm essentially rubbish at precision pistol. Prone rifle I'm not too bad at :)

I realise it's off topic but it reminded me to dust off and flog my air pistols though!

[johnbaz]

This is smallbore rifle rather than air pistol - despite my efforts I'm essentially rubbish at precision pistol. Prone rifle I'm not too bad at :)

I realise it's off topic but it reminded me to dust off and flog my air pistols though!

Ahh!

I'm going to apply for an FAC once I get thirteen visits to the gun club!!




John

[Huertecilla]

Reading up on the BAC system, I found this in an old entry on a Spanish forum:



Apparently ME made three hundred in 1997.
Ten years later they still had some stock!!

Unlikely those are still there, but as the system was and is all but forgotten... I wrote them anyway since stranger old stock keeps turning up in the WonderfulWatchWorld

[Huertecilla]

Nope, no stock anymore.
Hardly surprising but I had to ask.

That brings me back to the choice between a Cuno Melcher made BACS revolver, one of the again into the Netherlands imported ShinSung larger calibers. Ah, choices, choices and soooo much fun at sub Swiss luxury watch money!

[patrick]

Seems it fairly easy to own one of these here in France http://tecmagex.com/en/self-defense/...uxe-combo.html Anyone know if they are any good for target shooting?

[kungfugerbil]

Anyone know if they are any good for target shooting?

Terrible.

Short, non-rifled barrel, poor sights and heavy projectile for the load. Pretty good at delivering a non-lethal round at a would-be attacker but for target use much poorer than a simple pellet airgun.

[bitfield]

No pistol is much use for target shooting. As Jeff Cooper remarked, the purpose of the pistol is to stop a fight that somebody else has started, almost always at very short range.

[kungfugerbil]

No pistol is much use for target shooting. As Jeff Cooper remarked, the purpose of the pistol is to stop a fight that somebody else has started, almost always at very short range.

Target pistols are very much alive and well and have been a fixture of the Olympics for well over a century. Currently shot at 50m, 25m and 10m in air, rimfire and centrefire flavours.

I do like that quote though :)

[Huertecilla]

Target pistols are very much alive and well and have been a fixture of the Olympics for well over a century. Currently shot at 50m, 25m and 10m in air, rimfire and centrefire flavours.

Don't forget air guns. Airgun shooting is very much alive too.

Because of the laws of physics, air guns can be extremely accurate and competition air pistols are thus.
The barrel length only needs to be relatively short for accuracy and a longer barrel of a rifle only serves to give more velocity which with uk power levels is not much.

For personal defense requirements are the reverse: Lots of momentum, no penetration = low speed, heavy, large bore projectile. A rubber coated, lead .68 propelled by a light psitol or an alarm pistol charge would do.
Sadly the State has nooooo interest in citizens being able to protect themselves.

[Huertecilla]

Seems it fairly easy to own one of these here in France http://tecmagex.com/en/self-defense/...uxe-combo.html Anyone know if they are any good for target shooting?

Indeed quite easy to obtain.
If you would need your drivers' license medical you can get it at little to no extra cost.

This pistol would be quite effective as self defense tool in your own home and a pretty good idea imo.
The extra cilinder with practice rounds is a very good idea too. Just for practice and useless for anything else.
For target shooting it would be a tool to increment frustration.

GREAT to have in the house imo but in the UK in is totally illegal (and in most other EC countries).

[patrick]

Firearms rules seem a little more sensible here.
Paperwork involved in ownership of firearms in France.

The easiest firearms to buy here are 7th category firearms which include bolt action .22lr rifles and black powder pistols (possibly black powder rifles as well not sure). To buy these all you have to have is proof of your address and identity. The Cart de Sejour covers all this perfectly.

To buy anything else for target shooting you’ll have to join the ‘Federation Francaise De Tir’ which normally involves joining a local target shooting club as well all in for under 100 Euros. This gives you access to the club range and insurance, plus most importantly the ability to buy category 5 firearms which are: rifles that are not self loading and are not military calibres. This happens very quickly, that is you can join the federation and buy a rifle at the same time. With this membership you can also buy shotguns because clay pigeon shooting is of course not hunting but target shooting.One prerequisite is that you'll have to have an address in France, this could be a rented property, but normally this would be your own house.

If you want to buy hand guns and or self loading weapons (these are in categories 4 and 1) then you’ll have to get a carnet de tir. This is simply a log book which you must get stamped at your club every two months as proof that you go shooting and are seen by the other club members.

After you’ve collected 3 stamps (6 months) you can then complete a green piece of paper from your club called ‘Avis Preable’ which is signed by the regional president confirms that they think you are OK to buy some more interesting firearms.

With the ‘Avis Preable’ you can get another piece of paper called something along the lines of ‘Demand de la retention des arms’ I got mine from the Gendarmerie who also helped me fill it in and sent off the copies to the Prefecture for me. This paper is filled in requesting a specific calibre weapon and describing if it’s self loading pistol/revolver or rifle etc…You also have to take copies of your Carnet d Tir with it’s three stamps, a copy of your Federation Francais de Tir membership card, the ‘Avis Preable’ and a receipt or photograph of your gun cabinet.

After a few weeks I had a visit from the Gendarmes with my approved demand de la retention des arms, which allowed me to buy the specified type of arm. For each firearm you will have to complete one of these demands. The demand is only valid for three months when it comes back so you have to go shopping!

Firearm categories in France:

1 Self loading rifles, Self loading pistols, Pistols/Rifles that are a military calibre.
4 Revolvers of non military calibres, self loading 22lr pistols and rifles.
5 Rifles not self loading of non military calibres.
8 Deactivated firearms.

[Cat7]

In terms of air pistol accuracy, my HW75 is amazingly accurate 5 - 10 metres but in fairness only putting out about 3ft/lbs whereas its big brother the HW45 is 5.5ft/lbs but not as accurate.

[Huertecilla]

The easiest firearms to buy here are 7th category firearms which include bolt action .22lr rifles and black powder pistols (possibly black powder rifles as well not sure). To buy these all you have to have is proof of your address and identity. The Cart de Sejour covers all this perfectly.

Officially you need an original bill of health too for guns in cat.7 which needs to be registered.

In Spain it is absolutely bonkers. The permits for air guns are released by the local town hall and they can demand anything they seem fit as long as it meats the minimum requirements of the State.
As such some follow State rules but some go the whole top notch semi-automatic rifle route.
This in the context of the EC guidelines deeming air powered guns no issue for any regulation whatsoever. This after many years of study and with proper scientific information.
Belgium is the only country not thinking themselves more expert than the committee of experts they gave the task to advise them on this.
All in all a ludicrous example of how OUR money is being spent by selfpertaining governments.

Anyway: Air pistols can be stunningly accurate as well as simply good fun while being way less 'dangerous' then the contents of the kitchen drawer and tool shed.

[Neil.C]

Firearms rules seem a little more sensible here.
Paperwork involved in ownership of firearms in France.

In France now mate?

[kungfugerbil]

The easiest firearms to buy here are 7th category firearms which include bolt action .22lr rifles and black powder pistols (possibly black powder rifles as well not sure).

To be honest, if you could only have one firearm for every purpose then a bolt action .22LR will do perfectly. I have a bolt action .22LR that can put 10 shots in one hole with iron sights at 25m, or whack a scope on and you can still have decent groups out to 100m. .22LR rifles are very cheap to buy, ammunition is very cheap and plentiful, it has no recoil to speak of and is perfectly suited to target work and/or small game and vermin. Muzzle energy is around 100ftlbs with standard velocity rounds, and it's easy to get subsonic ammunition if you are using a silencer/moderator.

I'm a big fan of 22LR. For everything else I have a 12-bore which is louder and less precise :)

[patrick]

In France now mate?

Stuck up in the mountains Neil.God life is hell

[Toodlepip]

No pistol is much use for target shooting. As Jeff Cooper remarked, the purpose of the pistol is to stop a fight that somebody else has started, almost always at very short range.

The cover of the manual of FWB target air pistols have a target which has a five shot group on it fired from 10m. The hole in the target isn't much bigger than a single shot - and that goes for all target pistols shipped since the 60s. Over 10m, the world record is 594/600 and the bull is about the size of my little finger nail.

Free pistols are 22LR calibre and are fired over 50m using the same target that is used for 25m events. The world record is 583 / 600, and the bull is around an inch across.

The pistol is a lot more accurate than the shooter, but some of those shooters out there are pretty good.

[bitfield]

Target pistols are very much alive and well and have been a fixture of the Olympics for well over a century.

If you think about it, the point of sport is to do things that are difficult. Accurately shooting a pistol is difficult, hence why it's a sport.

If you want to shoot something accurately at any distance, buy a rifle. Pistols are effectively a kind of small portable rifle whose accuracy is seriously compromised in order to save weight and size.

[seadog1408]

If you think about it, the point of sport is to do things that are difficult. Accurately shooting a pistol is difficult, hence why it's a sport.

If you want to shoot something accurately at any distance, buy a rifle. Pistols are effectively a kind of small portable rifle whose accuracy is seriously compromised in order to save weight and size.

You just need to stop contradicting yourself!,

[kungfugerbil]

If you think about it, the point of sport is to do things that are difficult. Accurately shooting a pistol is difficult, hence why it's a sport.

If you want to shoot something accurately at any distance, buy a rifle. Pistols are effectively a kind of small portable rifle whose accuracy is seriously compromised in order to save weight and size.

Indeed - however the statement that 'no pistol is any good for target shooting' is patently nonsense - it's just that the targets are closer and/or larger than for rifles. If the question had been "are pistols good for target shooting at 1000 yards" then I would wholeheartedly agree with you and grab a .338 :)

[hako]

I routinely have people I take to the range shoot 9x19 at silhouette targets at 100 meters, on duty pistols with iron sights. The looks on their faces when they see the holes they just made are gold.

[Huertecilla]

If you want to shoot something accurately at any distance, buy a rifle. Pistols are effectively a kind of small portable rifle whose accuracy is seriously compromised in order to save weight and size.

Well, almost.
The accuracy is not compromised at all, just the range.

Accuracy is set by a very short bit of the barrel, at the end.

The only difference between a pistol and a rifle is the time traveling through the barrel and as such the time the propelling force is pushing.
A longer barrel adds more energy = range.
The accuracy is still the same; set by the last bit.

Upon leaving the tube the projectile goes in a straight line in the direction the exit was pointing at.
Do go see the myth busters youtube on bullets going around curves or not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFMQSdJXyF4

Proving the point even more is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73FFitene58

[Velorum]

I would agree with Petrus that the shorter barrel of a pistol is indeed capable of high accuracy - the problem of course is that the design itself that doesnt allow bracing against the body or on a rest. When I shot pistol I found consistent grouping to be incredibly difficult - not so much a problem with short range 'action' shooting such as practical pistol or iron plate. A different matter at 10 yards or further with paper targets!

[Huertecilla]

I would agree with Petrus that the shorter barrel of a pistol is indeed capable of high accuracy - the problem of course is that the design itself that doesnt allow bracing against the body or on a rest. When I shot pistol I found consistent grouping to be incredibly difficult - not so much a problem with short range 'action' shooting such as practical pistol or iron plate. A different matter at 10 yards or further with paper targets!

Apart from the support/bracing challenge there is also the lesser weight which mean more unrest.
Furthermore the closer the sights are together, the less accurate and more difficult becomes the aim. A scope does not change it because the way larger eye relief amount to the same.
A FAR greater challenge indeed and a case of the machine being more accurate than the operator.

[hako]

Some are mechanically very accurate (re silhouette pistols), some are not. Still, any of you could shoot a sub 4 inch group from 25 yards given some training and slow, deliberate fire.

[bitfield]

Indeed - however the statement that 'no pistol is any good for target shooting' is patently nonsense

Not quite what I said. I was really just making the point, in a slightly exaggerated and facetious way, that the job of a rifle is to shoot accurately at long ranges, and the job of a pistol is to be small. Those two things are antithetical.

Length of barrel is one factor, but mass is also important: my target rifle is much, much heavier than my sporting rifle. The reason is that the heavier the rifle, the less the recoil. The ideal rifle would weigh a ton, if accuracy were the only consideration. It's not, of course, as to be useful a rifle needs to be portable, so a compromise is made for sporting and battle rifles which isn't necessary for target rifles.

If you consider a pistol, as I've suggested, as a small, light, concealable rifle, you can see that it simply represents one extreme of this trade-off. It's shorter than a sporting rifle, the recoil is less manageable, and it can't be braced against the shoulder. All those things hurt accuracy. However, since most actual pistol combat happens at a range of seven to ten yards, you could argue that a pistol is about as accurate as it needs to be.

That doesn't mean, as you helpfully pointed out in case I might be under that misapprehension, that a pistol is no use *at all* for shooting at things. Even a very inaccurate gun is considerably better than no gun at all, if you're in the unfortunate situation of actually needing a gun.

[kungfugerbil]

Not quite what I said

No pistol is much use for target shooting

The point is that target pistol shooting is very much a 'thing'. Because it's harder than rifle shooting doesn't mean it's not worth doing. You might just as well say "No woman is much use at running" as men are very definitely faster - doesn't stop there being quite a few olympic disciplines that the gender with much nicer hair compete in :)

[Huertecilla]

The point is that target pistol shooting is very much a 'thing'. Because it's harder than rifle shooting doesn't mean it's not worth doing. You might just as well say "No woman is much use at running" as men are very definitely faster -

You might just as well say that because women are very much more difficult than men that they are not worth doing ;-)

[justin44]

I shoot clays and 10m air pistol at a club. I started because my son was shooting target rifle and I got bored, yes air pistol is hard but so is air rifle if either were easy they wouldn't be a challenge and there would be no competition. What's the point in sport if you don't want yo improve or compete?

Can't load photos but I have a Styre LP10 and it will always be more accurate than I ever will be.

[Cat7]

Air rifle shooting is one of my favourite hobbies, you have to really know your hold over/under and wind age corrections at each set range which makes it extremely challenging and enjoyable. It's great setting out targets at 20 yard intervals to 100yrds and having some plinking good fun.
Air pistols are great as well, although I must confess, again I do prefer plinking to target shooting.

[patrick]

Nothing to do with air pistols I know,but I think I'll have some fun with this http://tecmagex.com/en/review/produc...4/category/63/
just photocopy of drivers license required

[Cat7]

Nothing to do with air pistols I know,but I think I'll have some fun with this http://tecmagex.com/en/review/produc...4/category/63/
just photocopy of drivers license required

Sorry what is it, black firing or something else, I can't see from the link. Looks fun though as you say

[kungfugerbil]

Sorry what is it, black firing or something else

Black powder. Great fun, noisy, smoky, ace :D

[Cat7]

On I see, so does it actually fire shots, as in projectiles (like a musket ball I suppose) or is it just for the bang and the kick