Good evening all. As some may know I'm currently looking for a new addition to my collection, namely a Royal Oak or a Vacheron Overseas. At the moment I'm in contact with a few dealers in Europe about aquiring one or the other.
One particular dealer has an Overseas with box, but no papers. He said he doesn't know the year due to lack of papers. The price seems pretty decent as long as I try factor in a service and replacement papers.
From the little I know on service costs I'd imagine it will be near £1000 to have the watch serviced. But I have heard that replacement papers are nearly as expensive!!!
So would there be enough proof of authenticity by having it serviced without requiring new papers? Can anyone advise on what amount I should budget for the service & papers?
Also general thoughts on what you would do. Would you skip over watches that are not complete sets?
Cheers
Regardless of make i'd only buy original and complete, unless vintage.
Will the brands you mention actually send replacement papers, afaik most or many brands won't. If they do and its a grands worth that's urine extraction. Always buy complete and the best the budget can afford.
From my googling I found a thread on WUS where a VC Overseas owner had dropped his and sent for servicing, in the service bill (which was Australian Dollars and from 2012) there was a replacement certificate priced at $1300. So I think they must offer replacement papers. I know Patek will give you an excerpt from the archives for a fee.
The problem I have is these Vacheron Overseas are very tough to find at the right price. So I' trying to work out the overall cost here to see if it's a the right price or not.
I massively fancy a Vacheron as well, I'll race you. Also talking about papers, I've gone and lost the box for my Daytona. Not a huge problem as I can't see myself ever selling it, but a pain in the arse anyway, as my OCD insists that I have everything complete. It'll be in the house somewhere hopefully, but buggered if I can find it.
I'm headed back into Bond Street tomorrow to take a closer look at the 3 different Overseas Chronos, I may be tempted to splash out on a New Blue faced one if it really takes me as I am near certain I'll own this for a very long time (by new I mean when I'm in Hong Kong at the end of the year). I will also want to add a Royal Oak too at some point. Both are on the to buy list.
Wish I was in town when you were in London the other week. Sounded like an excellent day indeed.
OCD aside it probably depends on if you are buying as a collector or if it's a daily wearer?
Sounds like you have something specific in mind so probably best to find one you can't live without rather than having one because it's cheap???
Both seriously gorgeous watches. Best of luck and look forward to pics of whatever you decide!!
Yes robert, I've been lucky to be able to buy to try many watches recently because of this forum and from those experiences I really know what I like now. So purchases will be more to keep long term now. For example I really love my Daytona and really can't envisage selling it, nor my Patek.
So my mind is torn between buying the new watch for the right price, meaning if I lost the love for it I could recoup most of my costs, or buying the watch I really love regardless of sell on cost.
I really want to have a daily choice of Daytona, Overseas or Royal Oak. Which sports watch do I wear today. I love the versatility of all three.
Decisions decisions.
If you get it serviced, the paperwork for that should be enough proof of authenticity should you sell it on.
That's what I was thinking. But will a service be able to give me a date for the watch? I suppose that wouldn't matter as much as the fully VC service would be the date that mattered most to anyone.Originally Posted by SlimJim16v
I think it's the OCD side of me though that needs a full set.
Too high a risk of it being stolen without papers so not for me.
I think this is a falsehood in many cases. Years ago when i joined TZ i had a just serviced Daytona for sale, obviously with Rolex service papers. 'Everyone' wanted it at a more than fair price, until it was realised the original papers weren't included.
The irony, based on a recent thread here is that Watchfinder bought it and sold it with a significant profit on my selling price, the same as offered here.
Well it seems a repuitable dealer given the stores location in high rent street. Can't see what worth they would have selling stolen goods as I've already told them that I'll be sending it to Vacheron for a service. So if it's stolen I can tell them who I got it from.
So even though the serial number of your Daytona was on the official Rolex service papers people possibly would have paid more for a non serviced watch with original papers?
"People" work in strange ways...
They took $1300 for a piece of paper?
Indeed it was. I can't speak for people though, but it was literally a perfect specimen that the members here swerved because it was deemed compromised.
I vowed then I would never buy incomplete again regardless of price. One day you'll need to sell and complete is preferred by most buyers. Right or wrong, generally, thats the reality ime.
Last edited by shadowman; 31st July 2014 at 21:35.
Here's the reasoning I found. Lifted from a thread on WUS
Here is the deal with VC's Certificate of Authenticity and why it's this expensive. The watch requiring a C of A goes to an independent department, not part of restorations, and is fully disassembled. The originality and authenticity of each part is verified, as well as their cosmetic and functional condition. The watch is then re-assembled and a report prepared for the supervisor. If the watch is indeed both original and authentic, a hard-bound and hand-lettered 4-page document, not including covers, with photograph is prepared. This is your certificate.
The paperwork that came with the watch when new is much abbreviated and called a Certificate of Origin.
A timepiece can be submitted for the C of A without being serviced. If there are non-original parts, they would refuse to issue a certificate and you may then decide to pass the watch on to the restorations department where they would replace the questionable parts so that you can obtain a C of A. Also, a watch does not have to be in running condition to receive a certificate, but it must be complete.
The parameters for restorations/service are different. Their assessment is based upon returning a timepiece to as close to new condition as possible. They will make mandatory certain service items that affect function, and make optional other items that are only cosmetic. Nevertheless, they apply a high standard to this decision so a badly weathered dial or scratched case would likely be considered for mandatory refinishing. It is strictly "take it or leave it", so you cannot persuade your way around these dictates.
Hope this helps explain the process.
My thinking is exactly the same. The safety of that moment down the line when you need to reduce a collection for a house, baby or whatever reason. The added effort in finding a complete set at the beginning will pay off in the end.
Many thanks, CVB. I am not in the market for this kind of item so I suppose this whole way of thinking is alien to me. I just buy the watches I like and can afford, with no thought about re-selling. I can see the point of view that re-sale is important but I would not let that kind of consideration limit my choice of watches.
For an expensive watch that is likely to be re-sold in my lifetime I would insist on complete documentation, no ifs of buts. I just don't see myself buying that kind of watch. I only have one watch that is of any significant value and the day I let go of that is the day I drop dead.
Speaking of authenticity. How does the Vacheron USB key work? they have this new digital identification.
Edit: Actually it's just got info on it.
Last edited by CVByrne; 31st July 2014 at 22:43.
I've decided to pass on buying the watch without papers after having a chat with the very nice people in Vacheron Boutique on bond street.
Thanks for the advice all.
Agree you made the right move. Even from a reputable dealer they would not know if it's stolen as any thief can wear a smart suit, and there's no way to check, and if its a Rolex you lose it instantly on sending it in and so all the hassle of being made whole falls on you, a dealer might refund you but then they might say they bought in good faith just like you did and create extra hassle etc not to mention the extra loss and fewer buyers on resale.
Last edited by aksing; 1st August 2014 at 15:28.
How strange. I must admit, I wouldn't pay as much for a service paper only watch than I would for a full set, but at the right price, I would and there wouldnt; be much difference between those numbers. I'd class a service paper only watch as much closer to 'full set' money than 'loose watch' money.
A Seamaster chrono just turned up from SC in the post from Sweden today (Thanks Fernando!) with no box, papers or anything. He sold it to me at a great price and I am happy with it for what it is; a very useable genuine tool watch. If and when I pass it on, the next owner will have to think the same!
Full sets are often overrated IMHO, at the price that the watch would have been with B&P, I would not have been interested in owning one.
A factor in my decision is the heft of the Overseas Chrono on bracelet. I am more and more preferring watches around the 40mm size, a knock on effect of how much of a pleasure it is to wear the Daytona.
So when in the Boutique at lunch I was swayed much more by the Dual time which comes with both rubber and croc on deployant, it is lighter and the thinness of the strap reduces the overall size.
It was enough, along with the lack of papers and sheer cost of getting new ones along with a service as the year of the watch is unknown.
I also popped into Wempe to take another look at the 41mm Royal Oak, glad I did as I can no draw a line through it. It has to be the 15300 or 15202 Royal Oak.
But I think it's time, time for some dual time.
Last edited by CVByrne; 1st August 2014 at 16:23.
To add my 2 cents worth -
A full set is important to collectors as they want everything to come with the watch. Papers are significant as they show date and place of purchase etc.
Given this logic and the fact that collectors are the ones to pay, the trend took effect of having 'a full set' to get top dollar for your used watch. Dealers do not bother with service papers or any form of documentation other than the original certificate. If you dont have that the price will be classified as one without papers. A lot of people use the same logic as well.
Market dictates the price of the watch but really it depends on the individual buyer.
Why is it watchfinder or dealers can sell watches at a higher price without papers? The target is usually the guy that doesn't care too much about resale value or doesn't see any significance of 'the full set.' He/she just wants a watch to use.
I think it all comes down to why you are buying the watch.
1. To wear
2. As a collectible
3. As an investment
In all 3 cases it would be preferable to have a full set but in 1 it is actually irrelevant, in 2 nice to have and 3 almost essential.
This assumes long term keeper in all 3 cases.
i had a very similar experience with my seamaster chrono which i bought for around a grand with no box or papers from SC, a complete bargain which i intend to keep and as such, the papers and whatnot are of no value to me when i end up with a bargain watch at a bargain price. it was on SC for ages, attracting no interest until the contents of my pocckest matched its price and i was lucky to swoop in and get it.
i prefer watches which are complete but i also love a bargain and i buy to keep, not to invest (for the most part!)
A somewhat similar experience I had several years ago involved buying an engagement ring for my son's then fiance while he was overseas in Afghanistan. I knew what his stated budget was, and I knew a little bit about how to shop for diamonds. After going to several jewelers and not finding a suitable diamond, I happened upon a store where the manager worked with me for a while, finally asking if it was important to my son and his fiance that the diamond in the ring be "papered". I had not known that it was even possible to buy a diamond without the certification papers, but she had a couple of rings available that way and the price of those was about $800 to $1000 less than those with papered diamonds. We had a little laugh about the wole nature of certification. She even liked my comparing the unpapered diamonds to rescue dogs. The reality is, if you're buying to keep, you can get a very nice example for much less than the documented version, be it dogs or diamonds or watches. It all boils down to your long term plans.
The problem as i see it is today's long term plans may have to change in the long term. For many of us they do and for a whole plethora of reasons, invariably unforeseen and certainly unplanned.
I frequently laugh out loud when i read its a keeper, never to be sold, mine forever or whatever. Its great to have that level of confidence and self belief, but the facts are life changes and therefore circumstance do too.
People get married thinking its forever but.........................!
Once bitten twice shy is the expression, i would never repeat the Daytona type exercise i mentioned previously. On vintage or something less expensive, its less of a problem but when into tidy sums of money everything is just that and should be included and complete. IMO
I wonder whether a seller who didn't keep the box and papers would have taken care of the watch in the way I would expect. But I am the guy who sells you a car with receipts for every tyre, gasket and oil change...
As regards marriage, you are correct. It can sometimes end unexpectedly and in my son's case it did. Sadly she was not a faithful wife. However, in most of these cases the ex-wife ends up keeping the ring. He had little interest in seeing that she could get the maximum price out of that ring if she decided to sell it. And as it was a gift to her when we were buying it, she was not offered any input on how we purchased. We wish her well in her future romantic endeavors.The problem as i see it is today's long term plans may have to change in the long term. For many of us they do and for a whole plethora of reasons, invariably unforeseen and certainly unplanned.
I frequently laugh out loud when i read its a keeper, never to be sold, mine forever or whatever. Its great to have that level of confidence and self belief, but the facts are life changes and therefore circumstance do too.
People get married thinking its forever but.........................!
Once bitten twice shy is the expression, i would never repeat the Daytona type exercise i mentioned previously. On vintage or something less expensive, its less of a problem but when into tidy sums of money everything is just that and should be included and complete. IMO
I wouldn't personally as if I'm spending a large sum, I'd want papers probably because I just want a full set.
Buying a watch without its box and papers means you get a good deal, because you get the watch at a cheaper price.
You can't wear a box and papers!
I've happily bought watches without box and papers. All were good.
I look after my watches impeccably. However, I probably couldn't tell you where all their boxes and papers are. Ditto my car: it's lovingly looked after, but I don't have all the receipts.
Let me know when you come to sell it! You're right, of course, I bought a BMW with receipts for every tyre, and it was a shed. There were a lot of receipts cos it had a lot of faults!Buying a watch without its box and papers means you get a good deal, because you get the watch at a cheaper price.
You can't wear a box and papers!
I've happily bought watches without box and papers. All were good.
I look after my watches impeccably. However, I probably couldn't tell you where all their boxes and papers are. Ditto my car: it's lovingly looked after, but I don't have all the receipts.
Slightly off tangent, I notice a fair few "sets" on here and elsewhere were the seller has added missing boxes, tags, instructions etc. I'm in the process of doing this myself for a recent purchase. It's all part of the collecting fun for me. I know I'll never get a "full set" as the original warranty card/paper is long gone. I tell myself I'm adding to the value, but I'm not really sure it adds anything other than a bit of extra interest for me.
Does anyone else think it adds to the value?
Personally think it depends what sort of price/type of watch you are buying, if its 2,000 with a full set I probably wouldnt have a problem buying the same watch
if there was one in the same condition for 1600 (subject to the seller) but 3000+ with full set against an example with no papers at 500 less I would probably go for
the one with full set
The 'box & papers' thing depends on the watch, but I think it's overstated by many on this forum. Sure, it affects value to some degree, but I wouldn`t let it put me off buying provided the watch was correct and all bracelet links are present. I don`t need the 'warm feeling' from knowing I own the box & papers, I`m far more interested in the watch.
As for acquiring the 'full set' accessories, that seems completely pointless to me. Chances are the bits and pieces are fakes anyway; I let a Rolex box go for free with a watch because I wasn`t happy trying to sell it, I assumed it would be a fake and I didn`t want the hassle of someone arguing over it.
Each to their own I suppose.
Paul
Interesting point about fake papers/accessories.. Seems to be some massive price differences for what looks like the same item. I've seen some terrible fake boxes over the years and it starts to ring the old alarm bells about the watch within. Adds a bit of interest for me hunting the "full set" and doing a compare between what I've bought and what I know is genuine (ie came with a new watch from an ad) I did chat with Bill Rice about this, he could at that time order replacement box sets (or the modern equivalent) at the time so their are some real aftermarket ones out there and I do wonder if watchfinder et al source a few "full sets" themselves.
Right - it's about the amount, I saw an Oris Date pointer go for about £150 on ebay recently without box and papers - for that sort of money, I'd just wear it to death and wouldn't care about resale.
OR
The dealer puts their reputation on the line as to the authenticity of the watch. That's why. Buying from a reputable dealer without box and papers is hardly the same as buying from a random on eBay without B&P is it?
I'm not totally convinced Watchfinder and many similar dealers would refund you immediately if the watch turned out to be stolen. Maybe if it was a fake, yes, as they should be able to tell, but stolen they could argue they bought it in good faith and had no way to check as say a Rolex has no public database and they might well say just go to your insurance.
You may be pleasantly surprised on the servicing, depending on the condition of the watch. I (sort of) was with my older generation Overseas, pictured below. Mine was running fast (for a chronometer) but was otherwise in good condition, so it was mostly a precaution to have it serviced when I picked it up. I'm not saying it was cheap, but it was a good deal less than 1k. It helped that I politely declined to have the hands replaced - I couldn't see anything wrong with them and still can't, even with a very powerful loupe. They did it all on site in Bond Street and in reasonable time. Obviously this is all very much relative, you couldn't describe it as cheap or fast, but it was more in Rolex territory than eye watering AP territory (from what I've heard of that).
Last edited by Itsguy; 6th August 2014 at 15:52.
I would imagine (and I am going to check with a dealer now if I can) that you are completely wrong. They do the checks and that is why you pay 'dealer prices' for a watch.
Edited:
Asked the question of a London watch dealer. He said he would replace or refund immediately and take it up with the person he bought it from.
Last edited by DB9yeti; 6th August 2014 at 16:14. Reason: New info
Thanks for the reply, but I think the Chronograph service would be the cause for higher service cost. But essentially if it was in London and I could see the watch in person and make a call on if it needed a service or not it may have made the difference in my case.
I could then fill the papers void with an Exerpt from the Archives of Vacheron which isn't that expensive, this would prove it wasn't stolen and where it originated from, added to the receipt from the Dealer where it was bought it would have enough to satisfy it's originality in any potential sale down the line.
But it's a bit moot now as my "New arrival (Vahceron Content)" thread which I will post tomorrow evening will show.
Excellent result - look forward to it :)But it's a bit moot now as my "New arrival (Vahceron Content)" thread which I will post tomorrow evening will show.
I have to say, I haven't been this excited since I went over to Toms to pick up my Patek back in May.
I shall be sure to take pictures and do a write up that this watch deserves.
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