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Thread: Centigrade/fahrenheit temperature imperial/metric perception pecularity

  1. #51
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    Interesting how it all gets mixed up.
    Distance and length I tend to be bilingual . Lived for many years in France so miles and kilometers are both fine with me. However if you told me your car did 30MPG I would think that was OK. However I wouldn't have a clue what that was in Liters per 100KM
    Temp I am fine with both. Weight is an odd one. Always Stones and pounds for me, except lower weights of under a kilo, which only make any sense to me in grams.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cannop View Post
    I have a cobol self learning betamax tape Mark so I'm sorted thanks.
    dinosaur. I have one on a shiny laser disc! I might even copy it across to my minidisc too. I am down wiv da kids innit!

  3. #53
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    As (another) child of the 70's I am exactly, 100%, the same as the OP - quite peculiar really!!! :)

  4. #54
    16swg = 1.6mm = 1/16" is all you need to know about cross contaminated units, jus' sayin'.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by millie-mail View Post
    16swg = 1.6mm = 1/16" is all you need to know about cross contaminated units, jus' sayin'.
    At what number of hands does a French pony become a French horse?

    Cartorze.

  6. #56
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    6x2's at 400 centres still makes me chuckle
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  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by unclealec View Post
    At what number of hands does a French pony become a French horse?

    Cartorze.
    Depends how much you are willing to pay and/or how hungry you are.

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Neil.C View Post
    I've still got a boxed slide rule in the cupboard.
    Me too, mine was made in Japan from Bamboo and its gorgeous. Although I can't quite lay my hands on it or remember how to use it, it's a keeper.
    Can't part with anything me.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by jchlu View Post
    I can't really see a justification for trying to think in metric distance when mpg / mph / miles are so embedded in culture and the hive mind, however, judging temperature by anything other than zero degrees for the point water freezes and 100 degrees for the point water boils and everything else being "usually somewhere in between" (e.g. Men's aircon setting 20, women's aircon setting 40) is plain batcrap crazeballs IMHO.
    Johnny.
    Farhenheit slightly predates centigrade/Celsius and once it's embedded, it's embedded. The Celsius scale wasn't taken up outside Napoleonland until more than a hundred years later. An American colleague also suggests that the prevalence of F over C in the US is because zero deg C isn't really that cold - whereas zero deg F is REALLY cold.

    0 deg F is the coldest temperature physicists could achieve in an 18th Century lab, and 100 because it's all but the same as normal body temperature. Additionally, 0 deg F and 100 deg F are broadly at the meteorological temperature extremes of northern Europe, where both F and C came from.
    ...but what do I know; I don't even like watches!

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by unclealec View Post
    When I was alive I lived in a country with standard currency that operated with fractions and multiples of twelve, then a multiple of twenty, then twenty one.
    Length was in fractions and multiples of twelve, then three, then one thousand seven hundred and sixty.
    Weight was in fractions and multiples of sixteen, then one hundred and twelve, then twenty.
    Temperature was divided into two hundred and twelve degrees but started at thirty two.

    What could be simpler than that?
    There is life below 0 F and above 212 F, although not much animal life ;). It starts at -460, though, not 32.

    The L, s and d system being well over 1,500 years old and at one time prevalent in all of Europe in some form, was certainly relevant when something worth a pound was extremely expensive. Even a penny was further subdivided into eighths. I guess that's the downside of having the world's oldest continuously traded currency. These days, that ability to subdivide is pointless; even the Americans have a decimal hard currency although interestingly stock quotes were still in 16ths of a dollar until 2001.

    However I do think that Imperial systems, and having to switch between that and metric, gives older people a mental agility and facility that today's metric-only society, what with their new-fangled calculators and E-Z-dividing decimal system, cannot match. Watching highly-paid, assertive young people try to add up in their heads at work, staring at the corner of the room, tongue hanging out slightly, sometimes whispering to themselves... quite fun :)
    ...but what do I know; I don't even like watches!

  11. #61
    Thomas Reid
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    Quote Originally Posted by millie-mail View Post
    16swg = 1.6mm = 1/16" is all you need to know about cross contaminated units, jus' sayin'.
    On Tuesday I went out to buy some brass stock. I'm making a sensitive drilling attachment for my lathe/mill (for dial making). I wanted one piece (bar) to fit into another piece (tube), with as little play as possible. I usually use metric for metal sizes, but am reasonably familiar with imperial [1]. So, I wanted tube and bar of the inner dimension of the tube, and the tube (for a variety of reasons) had to be 3/8" Outer Dimension (OD). For these imperial measurements, ID = OD - (2 x swg thickness). So, for this, 3/8" - (2 x 16swg) = 9.525 mm - (2 x 1.625mm) = 6.273mm. So 1/4" (6.35mm) bar was too large and 6mm bar was too small. (Actually, the 6mm didn't fit the tube hole until the burr was removed.)

    But it was the introduction into the conversation of the 6mm bar that threw me for a loop. The guy in the shop started talking about 6 mil (for 6mm). One of the conceptual hurdles I've been forced to leap in using the internet for information about metal and metal working is to take a mil to be 1/1000th inch, so people say things like 'it was accurate to 3 mils', not meaning 3mm, but 3/1000" or (about) .076 mm[2]. I had to pause and make sure that he had mm in mind whenever he used "mil". It was maddening.

    (In the end, the 6mm was too loose for my liking, so I took a bit off the 1/4" to get it to 6.22mm +/- 0.03mm.)

    [1] Let's not talk about thread sizes.

    [2] The first time I saw a boast that something was cut to "a couple of mil" accuracy, I thought, "big deal, I can do that with a hatchet". :)

    Best wishes,
    Bob

    PS
    Small lengths, weights, volume, etc. metric. Everything else imperial. Except watch movements.
    RLF
    Last edited by rfrazier; 24th July 2014 at 13:50.

  12. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by rfrazier View Post
    On Tuesday I went out to buy some brass stock. I'm making a sensitive drilling attachment for my lathe/mill (for dial making). I wanted one piece (bar) to fit into another piece (tube), with as little play as possible. I usually use metric for metal sizes, but am reasonably familiar with imperial [1]. So, I wanted tube and bar of the inner dimension of the tube, and the tube (for a variety of reasons) had to be 3/8" Outer Dimension (OD). For these imperial measurements, ID = OD - (2 x swg thickness). So, for this, 3/8" - (2 x 16swg) = 9.525 mm - (2 x 1.625mm) = 6.273mm. So 1/4" (6.35mm) bar was too large and 6mm bar was too small. (Actually, the 6mm didn't fit the tube hole until the burr was removed.)

    But it was the introduction into the conversation of the 6mm bar that threw me for a loop. The guy in the shop started talking about 6 mil (for 6mm). One of the conceptual hurdles I've been forced to leap in using the internet for information about metal and metal working is to take a mil to be 1/1000th inch, so people say things like 'it was accurate to 3 mils', not meaning 3mm, but 3/1000" or (about) .076 mm[2]. I had to pause and make sure that he had mm in mind whenever he used "mil". It was maddening.

    (In the end, the 6mm was too loose for my liking, so I took a bit off the 1/4" to get it to 6.22mm +/- 0.03mm.)

    [1] Let's not talk about thread sizes.

    [2] The first time I saw a boast that something was cut to "a couple of mil" accuracy, I thought, "big deal, I can do that with a hatchet". :)

    Best wishes,
    Bob

    PS
    Small lengths, weights, volume, etc. metric. Everything else imperial. Except watch movements.
    RLF
    mil used as 1/1000 of an inch is a weird American thing I thought, probably because they don't acknowledge the mm. The rest of the world call that a thou. Mil short for milli means a thousandth of something in the metric world of si units, as in millimetre, milliamp, millivolt etc etc. In terms of length, myself and everyone I know in the engineering world will use mil milli or millimeter interchangeably. If we wanted to say 1/1000 inch, not that we ever do, it would be a thou. Were you reading up about metalwork on US websites?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thousandth_of_an_inch

    Brighty

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brighty View Post
    mil used as 1/1000 of an inch is a weird American thing I thought, probably because they don't acknowledge the mm. The rest of the world call that a thou. Mil short for milli means a thousandth of something in the metric world of si units, as in millimetre, milliamp, millivolt etc etc. In terms of length, myself and everyone I know in the engineering world will use mil milli or millimeter interchangeably. If we wanted to say 1/1000 inch, not that we ever do, it would be a thou. Were you reading up about metalwork on US websites?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thousandth_of_an_inch

    Brighty

    I'm pretty promiscuous in my reading. My main lathe/mill is a Sherline from the USA, but with metric lead screws. However, that doesn't prevent it from having various parts, attachments, etc., specified in imperial.

    Best wishes,
    Bob

  14. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Brighty View Post
    mil used as 1/1000 of an inch is a weird American thing I thought, probably because they don't acknowledge the mm. The rest of the world call that a thou. Mil short for milli means a thousandth of something in the metric world of si units, as in millimetre, milliamp, millivolt etc etc. In terms of length, myself and everyone I know in the engineering world will use mil milli or millimeter interchangeably. If we wanted to say 1/1000 inch, not that we ever do, it would be a thou. Were you reading up about metalwork on US websites?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thousandth_of_an_inch

    Brighty
    Correct, well 0.02mm or 1/50th mm, might help Bob with his thou"/mil" issue.

    (It's not polite to use, "weird american thing" in present company.)

  15. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by millie-mail View Post
    Correct, well 0.02mm or 1/50th mm, might help Bob with his thou"/mil" issue.

    (It's not polite to use, "weird american thing" in present company.)
    Lol, I meant that use of mil as 1/1000 inch is weird (to the rest of us) and American not that Americans are weird. Although......

    Brighty

  16. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by rfrazier View Post
    On Tuesday I went out to buy some brass stock. I'm making a sensitive drilling attachment for my lathe/mill (for dial making). I wanted one piece (bar) to fit into another piece (tube), with as little play as possible. I usually use metric for metal sizes, but am reasonably familiar with imperial [1]. So, I wanted tube and bar of the inner dimension of the tube, and the tube (for a variety of reasons) had to be 3/8" Outer Dimension (OD). For these imperial measurements, ID = OD - (2 x swg thickness). So, for this, 3/8" - (2 x 16swg) = 9.525 mm - (2 x 1.625mm) = 6.273mm. So 1/4" (6.35mm) bar was too large and 6mm bar was too small. (Actually, the 6mm didn't fit the tube hole until the burr was removed.)

    But it was the introduction into the conversation of the 6mm bar that threw me for a loop. The guy in the shop started talking about 6 mil (for 6mm). One of the conceptual hurdles I've been forced to leap in using the internet for information about metal and metal working is to take a mil to be 1/1000th inch, so people say things like 'it was accurate to 3 mils', not meaning 3mm, but 3/1000" or (about) .076 mm[2]. I had to pause and make sure that he had mm in mind whenever he used "mil". It was maddening.

    (In the end, the 6mm was too loose for my liking, so I took a bit off the 1/4" to get it to 6.22mm +/- 0.03mm.)

    [1] Let's not talk about thread sizes.

    [2] The first time I saw a boast that something was cut to "a couple of mil" accuracy, I thought, "big deal, I can do that with a hatchet". :)

    Best wishes,
    Bob

    PS
    Small lengths, weights, volume, etc. metric. Everything else imperial. Except watch movements.
    RLF
    With reference to [1] I feel your pain having been previously subjected to the world of AN coarse and fine and Cherry and Avdel aircraft products.

  17. #67
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    In a Riley gearbox there are machine screws with metric threads and Imperial hex head size.

  18. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by unclealec View Post
    In a Riley gearbox there are machine screws with metric threads and Imperial hex head size.
    That is interesting, I have heard of this for other vehicles previously but can't recall the make and model. Was this due to the age of vehicle near to the uk change over of units. As in, old stock screw blanks cut with a new thread? Or a component of the g/box that was purchased in with a metric thread already cut?

  19. #69
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    There's an interesting corner of this sort of thing in my profession - archaeology.

    When we record sites we use metric units for everything. We then often compare similar things across different sites in different regions. Our observations might be factually correct e.g. "the late Iron Age four post grain stores in Suffolk and Norfolk all tend to be between 1.8 and 2.3m long" (a fictitious example BTW) but what do we actually mean that bears any relationship to the original builders intent? They didn't know they were 1.8m long and we may never know the actual units used (if any). The dimensions when expressed in modern terms are useful but don't get you down to a more intimate level of understanding. We are obsessed with planning and measuring in a way that is very modern. In the past much would have been made up on the hoof - but we simply have to measure things. In reality it would be just as useful to record if something was a "big, medium or small" one.

    When you get a bit later in history you know something more about the units and can extrapolate. When looking at field systems and land boundaries that are medieval in date you can work out their size in roods and perches (subdivisions of an acre) - which are what they were originally assessed in. Not necessarily laid out using those measurements but assessed for the purposes of taxation (some things never change)...

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by millie-mail View Post
    That is interesting, I have heard of this for other vehicles previously but can't recall the make and model. Was this due to the age of vehicle near to the uk change over of units. As in, old stock screw blanks cut with a new thread? Or a component of the g/box that was purchased in with a metric thread already cut?
    It started with Bill Morris (a.k.a. Lord Nuffield in later years) buying in engines and gearboxes from a French manufacturer. The fitters in the UK didn't have any truck with this metric malarkey, so Uncle Bill had made screws and bolts that would fit the metric tappings in the component but be compatible with the imperial (Whitworth/BSF) spanner head sizes.

  21. #71
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    I don't know if this is apocryphal or otherwise, but it was reported an old-time film star commissioned a mansion in Beverley Hills. She used a French architect but US workers. When finished it was way out because the the US guys thought centimetres were inches.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glamdring View Post
    I don't know if this is apocryphal or otherwise, but it was reported an old-time film star commissioned a mansion in Beverley Hills. She used a French architect but US workers. When finished it was way out because the the US guys thought centimetres were inches.
    Along these lines, more than one space probe has been lost due to mix ups between Imperials and Metric measurements[1].




    Footnote:-
    1: Yes, I should really provide references otherwise this is just another urban legend. Unfortunately I'm feeling too lazy to look up references. Feel free to consider finding the references an exercise for the reader. :-)

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by markrlondon View Post
    Along these lines, more than one space probe has been lost due to mix ups between Imperials and Metric measurements[1].




    Footnote:-
    1: Yes, I should really provide references otherwise this is just another urban legend. Unfortunately I'm feeling too lazy to look up references. Feel free to consider finding the references an exercise for the reader. :-)
    Hubble space telescope?

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by millie-mail View Post
    That is interesting, I have heard of this for other vehicles previously but can't recall the make and model. Was this due to the age of vehicle near to the uk change over of units. As in, old stock screw blanks cut with a new thread? Or a component of the g/box that was purchased in with a metric thread already cut?
    For completeness I should have said it happened in all Morris/Nuffield-connected English car manufacturers that used the base units, so instances occur in M.G., Wolseley, Morris, and Riley.
    Must go now, I'm being measured for a new anorak.

  25. #75
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    Cups, and fractions of, for flour and everything bakey

  26. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by markrlondon View Post
    Along these lines, more than one space probe has been lost due to mix ups between Imperials and Metric measurements[1].




    Footnote:-
    1: Yes, I should really provide references otherwise this is just another urban legend. Unfortunately I'm feeling too lazy to look up references. Feel free to consider finding the references an exercise for the reader. :-)
    One such mistake involved the Mars Climate Orbiter in 1999.

    From NASA JBL.

    A failure to recognize and correct an error in a transfer of information between the Mars Climate Orbiter spacecraft team in Colorado and the mission navigation team in California led to the loss of the spacecraft last week, preliminary findings by NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory internal peer review indicate.

    "People sometimes make errors," said Dr. Edward Weiler, NASA's Associate Administrator for Space Science. "The problem here was not the error, it was the failure of NASA's systems engineering, and the checks and balances in our processes to detect the error. That's why we lost the spacecraft."

    The peer review preliminary findings indicate that one team used English units (e.g., inches, feet and pounds) while the other used metric units for a key spacecraft operation. This information was critical to the maneuvers required to place the spacecraft in the proper Mars orbit.
    http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msp98/news/mco990930.html

    Best wishes,
    Bob

  27. #77
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    All I can think of now is the model of Stonehenge in Spinal Tap...
    Johnny.

  28. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by jchlu View Post
    All I can think of now is the model of Stonehenge in Spinal Tap...
    Johnny.
    Yeah, or the plan to build a life-size statue of Wallace & Grommit in Preston city centre. All were in favour until some enlightened soul pointed out that it would be about 8" high.

  29. #79
    Wasn't it also the reason that Jimbo of Jet Set fame was created how he was?

    Brighty
    Last edited by Brighty; 25th July 2014 at 09:50.

  30. #80
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    In the interested of full disclosure, I just tried to rate this thread five stars but was informed I was unable to do so because I've already rated it. I don't recall ever rating a thread on TZ before.
    Good luck everybody. Have a good one.

  31. #81
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    Twip, anyone?



    I note with interest that a shaftment is six inches.

  32. #82
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    Imperial metric conversion confusion has also been 'responsible' for aircraft running out of fuel inflight (not good) eg "Gimli Glider".

  33. #83
    Craftsman CH47Driver's Avatar
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    Boeing have got their knickers in a right twist when it comes to the Chinook.

    All Up Mass, Fuel and Cargo all Kgs
    Pressures in PSI
    Temperatures in Celsius
    Barometric pressure in HectoPascales (metric)
    Height in feet
    Speed in knots
    RPMs in %
    Dimensions in feet
    Distances in NM (though plotted on a metric-scaled map)

    Having said that, I think a lot of aircraft are just as confused.

  34. #84
    Craftsman
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    Hot = degrees F
    Cold = degrees C
    Speed = MPH or M/sec (M/sec gives the learners one hell of a shock!)
    Weight? Body = stones or KG, bags of food = KG, a nice steak = ounces
    Distance? Short = mm, intermediate = inches, feet, cm or meters, long = miles
    Fuel = Gallons (one gallon = 4.54 litres)
    Fuel consumption = MPG (MPG from trip distance and litres bought = miles/litresx4.54)

    My wife's Portuguese, so I'm thinking in metric a lot more than I used to. At least I know what 30 degrees C is roughly now!

  35. #85
    As yet another 60's kid, I don't recall learning feet and inches, but all in mm/metres/kilometres. However, silly problems always given to us in miles and mph ( if a train left at 1.00 doing 30mph etc etc.)

    As my car says mpg/mph, that's what I use.

    At tech college we used metric linear and metric tonnes. At work we use body temps in centigrade of course. And recently, after 20 years of measuring haemoglobin in grams per decilitre, we moved in 2013 to grams per litre; For example: Hb now of 12.3 g/dL will become Hb of 123 g/L . Gawd knows why, but we always take it, then say Hb of 12.3, as we are used to it. Mental.
    Also hundreds of years old, we use mm of water,(airway pressures) and blood pressure in mm of mercury. No idea how long this unit has been in use.

  36. #86
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    You've got to feel sorry for the naval gunnery teams (ANGLICO) that worked with the US military in Vietnam.

    I may get a few of the varieties wrong, but it was something along the lines of:

    Naval gunners used knots and nautical miles.
    Marines used MPH and KM.
    Army gunners used feet, yards and MPH.
    Air force pilots used feet for altitude and MPH.
    Navy pilots used feet and knots.
    Marine pilots used meters and KPH.

    Add to that the conversions between shell and bomb weights that could be in pounds or kilos and life could get very interesting.

    There's one story I read about a forward controller who, during the Tet offensive, was working with a mixed army and marine unit on the ground, giving bombing data to all 3 groups of pilots, both army and marine field gun teams and naval gunners all during one engagement. At one point he was dropping naval shells from a ship traveling at almost maximum speed towards the shore, at the same time as giving bomb drop calls to pilots who couldn't see the ground due to cloud cover by using the doppler effect of their engine noise as they flew overhead at a known altitude and speed.

    All this was done using slide rules!!!



    If you're interested, try reading The Fire Dream by Franklin Allen Leib. There's a section in the book set during Tet which, if I remember correctly, was inspired by his experiences of something very similar while he was serving there as a navy officer.

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