Hi All,
Has anyone dealt with Fortis directly when a watch hasn't come up to scratch ? I am starting to doubt the ability of the authorized dealer to resolve my issue and having sent an email to Fortis directly. I was wondering if anyone has any experiences concerning their responsiveness to emails and willingness to keep customers happy ?
Many Thanks
Marc.
Be less cryptic, what's the exact problem with the watch and the AD?
I spoke with Fortis CS just last week, and the girl was very helpful in giving me prices for parts and servicing.
They're closed now for a fortnight, so if you're awaiting a response to an email, it'll be a while before they get a chance to get round to reading it and replying.
I have a B42 Cosmo with Fortis Service Dept at the moment as it was stopping randomly while on the wrist. A bit of a shake would get it going, but it was hit/miss. Disappointing, because it seems to be built solidly otherwise. The watch is under warranty (6mths old) and had actually been stored for that time awaiting my birthday. I bought it over the phone from an AD in Derby so I couldn't just pop in and drop it back off with them.
So I decided to contact the European Service Centre (Germany) listed in the warranty booklet directly to tell them about the issue & ask their guidance on how to proceed. They came back a day or so later to advise that warranty work would need to be dealt with by the factory in Switzerland, and provided me contact details.
I then got in touch with them (Mr Regula Ritter) and explained the issue. He responded to me 3 days later to advise that I could send it for his attention with details of the issue, that it could take 1-2 weeks including return shipment... but that customs may charge me declaration costs when they return it.
In the end I contacted the AD and they agreed that they would deal with it for me, to save customs nonsense. Turns out that a screw head had sheared from one of them in the movement holder, and gotten in to the movement. Bizarrely, the dealer told me that Fortis refused to accept the repair under warranty for reasons unknown to me, so the AD is footing the bill. AD advise me that Fortis said it would be dealt with as low priority.
Watch was sent to AD on 28/5... then sent to Fortis by the AD the following week.... still not got it back, so not got a clue when I'll see it again.
So, my experience is that they appear to respond to emails in an OK timeframe.. but the jury is still out for me in relation to actually backing that up with service.
Regula isn't a Mr, she's a Mrs or Miss, if not Ms.
Thanks Gorrie for that detail. That doesn't sound very good to me at all, looks like there's a strong possibility that I am heading for disappointment.
Thanks PJ S, yes maybe I should provide more detail.....
In short I bought a B42-Marinemaster from an authorized dealer in Germany (I am in the UK). They were great to deal with, very responsive, spoke good English and I was purchasing from a "bricks and mortar" shop rather than just an online grey dealer. So I was confident that given the good price, I should be ok.
After two and half weeks it stopped working. You can hear the crown turning but there is clearly something very wrong. The dealer said I could return it for repair, and my response was for a watch that was only two and half weeks old I want a new watch, not a repaired watch. The dealer said they would contact Fortis, which I accepted although in my mind the dealer should just provide me with a replacement, and send back the original to Fortis themselves.
A week later I phone the dealer and the dealer said Fortis want to see some photos. I sent photos to the dealer yesterday, but to my mind its a strange request since the pictures aren't going to tell Fortis anything. So my concern is that the dealer could be stalling and preparing to take me on a wild goose chase. Furthermore, if the dealer had spoken to Fortis, why did they wait for me to contact them, rather than advising me without being prompted.
Whilst I am aware of consumer law in the UK and would be confident that I could simply throw the watch back at them, the position under German law is less clear and it seems I have to rely on the discretion of the dealer/Fortis. If there are any German Consumer Law experts on here, I'd appreciate further confirmation of the law there too !
So anyway, I also sent a mail to Fortis yesterday advising them of my current problems and also attaching the pictures. My original post was to try and gauge how long I should wait before contacting them. Obviously 24 hours would be unreasonable, but I was hoping for a response within a week. If the Service Centre is closed at the moment it looks like I will be waiting for a little while.
Last edited by marcbe; 21st July 2014 at 19:35.
If you paid by CC, then under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act, you can involve them in issuing a refund once the watch has been returned.
It shouldn't be too hard to find out German Consumer Law information, but as you're not a German citizen, I don't think it applies to international sales.
So for me, you've either a 2 week wait until Fortis can get back to you, or you inform the dealer that the only option you want is a replacement or full refund.
I guess the picture request is to gauge whether the watch has been dropped or not, which may explain the reason for its ceasing to work.
If the dealer allowed you to purchase via PP, you can use them to facilitate the refund upon proof of the watch's return.
Either way, you'll be covered if the dealer doesn't want to simply swap it out.
The transaction is deemed to be subject to German law in accordance with retailers terms and conditions. I don't believe that it is of any consequence where I am located. So in short the following applies:
Directive 1999/44/EC on the sale of consumer goods and associated guarantees has been implemented by Germany. As a result of this legislation, consumers have a right to a minimum guarantee of six months on products. Within these six months any lack of conformity shall be presumed to have existed at the time of delivery, unless proved otherwise. Within this period the consumer is entitled to have the goods brought back into conformity. The consumer is entitled to ask for the goods to be repaired or replaced free of charge.
So it looks like I am entitled to a free replacement and I shouldn't have to mess around waiting for Fortis. I guess I'll be calling the store tomorrow......
Effectively the same as Sale of Goods Act – first 6 months the onus is on the seller to prove the item sold wasn't faulty, after that, it falls upon the buyer to show the item was faulty from day one.
Whoops..Originally Posted by PJ S
Wouldn't worry about it – I'm sure she's been called worse!
... unfortunately - no.
Why? As you correctly stated, you are "entitled to have the goods brought back into conformity." And the EU directive, as well as the corresponding German law (§ 439 (1) BGB) offers two options for this procedure ("Nacherfüllung"), namely repair ("Nachbesserung") or replacement ("Ersatzlieferung"). However, while you as the buyer have the right to ask for a specific way, the seller can refute this according to (§ 439 (3) 1 BGB) if (non verbal translation) "the cost for the requested option are unreasonable". Now, what is "unreasonable"? The textbook example is: "buyer purchases new car, bulb of left headlight fails on Day 1 - buyer comes back and requests a new car." Obviously, it is not so simple in real life.
A few simple rules:
- if the repair costs more than the new product => replacement or money back, not entitled for a repair
- if the repair costs a small fraction of the new product => repair, not entitled for a replacement
- if the repair (or replacement) takes significantly longer than the replacement (repair) => time-saving option, unless the buyer agrees to wait
Thus, it is likely that the dealer would deny a request for a full replacement and prefer going for the repair route. Usually (and depending on the value of the good), the seller has one or two attempts for a repair until an automatic right for replacement or full refund kicks in.
What could be maybe more promising (from a legal perspective): If you did not buy the watch in person in the store, you have the right to cancel the purchase (and send back the item) for at least 2 weeks following the purchase. Some dealers extend this to 30 days or four weeks - if I got it right, this two week window is already over - but maybe your dealer has an extended time period in his terms and conditions. Another thing is that the seller is required to specifically inform you about your right to cancel. If, for example, you have called the dealer by phone and afterwards received an email with the purchase confirmation / invoice, this email must also contain specific information on this. Alternatively, the same could be provided as a print-out accompanying the parcel with the watch. If they did not provide such information, you may be entitled to send the watch back for a full refund. Please note, that if either the website was available in English and/or the communication with you was done in English (i.e., they cannot reasonably expect that you understand German), they also have to provide this information on cancellation and returns in English - if they didn't, the 2 week period for cancellation has not even started...
Cheers,
Christian
P.S.: All this legal stuff aside, I would always recommend a "friendly" approach first - as this is usually time saving and less costly. But knowing the options is never wrong...
Hi Christian,
Thank you for this response, it is greatly appreciated. So far I have taken a "softly softly" approach and have tried not to be too "pushy". In terms of "reasonableness" it would be interesting to understand whether having stopped working completely, this would suffice for a full refund regardless of the cause. Its not as though the its lost just a bezel pip or a strap pin.
In terms of cancellation period, they extend this period to 21 days and I first contacted them within this period. I also expressly indicated by email that my expectation is that this period is continuing to run whilst the dealer looks to resolve this issue. However, whilst they have accepted this, they also stated that this applies if the watch is completely unworn. Unfortunately, I wore the watch on two occasions (which would not be an issue) and had the rubber strap cut (which is an issue).
So in short it looks like the best course of action is to remain on friendly terms with the dealer and hope for the best. At the end of the day, I can always have the watch repaired by Fortis under warranty although this grates slightly given the age of the watch. On the plus side, I very nearly purchased from a "grey dealer" but due to his poor command of English and his failure to answer direct questions, I decided against using him. At least I have the fact that they are an authorized dealer to fall back on.....hopefully !
Many thanks again for providing such an informed response.
Marc.
Just to update. Got my B-42 Cosmo back today, so it was 2 months. Going via the AD would have added a couple of extra days though.
It's now got a speck of dust stuck to the inside of the crystal, and it appears to have picked up a knock somewhere along the way, the bezel at 9pm is slightly flattened (may have been during transit, you never know). Not bad for a brand new watch that I've worn about a week in total.
Without wanting to state the obvious, this doesn't sound good. Its exactly the reason I gave up on Glycine, they didn't seem capable of adequately repairing their own watches. I think I will have to expect to worst and only hope for the best.
That is a disgrace.
I have only dealt with Fortis in Germany directly on one occasion. I was getting some work on three of my Fortis watches several years ago.
I will concentrate on one; my silver dialled B-42 Chronograph. Some of you may remember it as it was flipped on SC on several occasions. It let in water the first and only time I actually had it in water. It was pretty devastating especially as the crown was in the correct position, but as it was under warranty I was not too concerned at the time. It ended up getting a new dial, hands, movement, crown, pushers etc as Fortis stated that the water ingress was due to a bent stem on one of the pushers. The watch had never been dropped or knocked and both pushers were totally unmarked. I did a little homework at that time. i found out that Fortis were having QC issues with their screw down crowns and they had been inundated with water ingress issues due to faulty crowns. It was so bad that they were developing a new non screw down crown WR to 200m.
Now, Fortis (if i remember correctly) hit me with a €650 bill at the time and I was ever so slightly aggrieved as you can imagine. I phoned Germany to complain about the issues to hand and by the end of the conversation the bill had gone from over €600 to around €420. They were negotiating on the bill via the phone!!
I don't know how Fortis service centre in Germany performs these days but (back then) that one experience was enough for me.
I feel for you guys.........Pretty poor standards of service to say the least.
Imo if they don't get it right first time, they don't get my business ever again.
I hope you get it sorted soon.
Hi All,
Continuing a mini-saga concerning a Fortis Marinemaster purchased new around 6 weeks ago. The Authorised Dealer in Germany has been as much use as a chocolate tea pot and has disappeared without trace. Fortis have offered me two options:
(1) I can return the watch directly to them in Switzerland where the will repair the watch so that it is "like new", or
(2) I can take the watch to the local Victorinox Service Centre here in the Middle East where they will repair the watch on behalf of Fortis.
I have been advised by Fortis that since it is standard ETA movement, Victorinox have a very good record of providing repairs on behalf of Fortis. Also, I haven't heard particularly glowing references for Fortis' own repair services. Time wise I suspect local it will be repaired within a few weeks whereas if it goes to Fortis it will take a number of months.
Does anyone have any Victorinox servicing experiences ? I am inclined to take my chances with them given that Fortis may not provide a particularly good repair themselves. Any views would be appreciated.
Thanks
Marc.
I never dealt with Fortis directly but I had a really "nice" experience with an AD... The watch came from a regular service with a caseback from a different watch... The funny thing is that my original caseback was never found again
Blimey!I never dealt with Fortis directly but I had a really "nice" experience with an AD... The watch came from a regular service with a caseback from a different watch... The funny thing is that my original caseback was never found again
it was years ago so I can laugh about it now :) I suspect that my caseback landed on somebody elses Fortis and he never noticed it...
I presume that Fortis provided a correct new case back?
I've had Fortis watches for many years - I used to use an AD in Nottingham (Cathy Stephens Jewellers in the Flying Horse Arcade - not an AD any more though).
I had a B42 Pilot Pro Chrono with the questionable screw in crown as mentioned in above - I had no probs but Fortis wrote to me (via AD) and raised the issue, offered me a free replacement for their new push-fit 200m WR crown. I sent the watch off, couple of weeks I think, and it came back absolutely bob on.
I also stripped a screw-head on one of the strap bars (they use screwed rather than spring bars). I recall the AD suggested I drop Fortis an email directly and see if they would help - and they duly sent me a little bag of bars and screw heads gratis.
All of the above was about 2007-'09 period I think.
Since then, I've bought and flipped a few on here - never had a mechanical issue with them, so no Service or Warranty experience.
I have always been a big advocate of them for both their products and support BUT.........
I bought a new Ti Cosmonauts from a German AD about 4 months ago. Outstanding service from them, but I did have an initial issue with the divers extension clasp, in that it would open very easily (simple, small wrist movements would often deploy it - very annoying).
I contacted Fortis directly about it, and followed up my contact perhaps 3 times - never heard a single thing back from them.
I contacted the German AD who replied immediately, said they would pick it up with Fortis on my behalf - and have heard nothing back for a couple of months (have not bothered chasing it, shouldn't have to).
Anyway, the fix was super simple - divers clasp was retained by a hinged T-piece that split down the middle, I simply slid in a thin flat-head screwdriver and opened out this split by a very small amount. It now sits snug, only deploys when I want it to, and alles gut.
I'm still a big fan of their watches - from having perhaps 10, I can state that the build quality (in my experience) is very good, and 2nd hand they are a real bargain (although not popular on the forum).
My current one is my daily wearer (my ONE watch at present) - I wear it for everything every day (in the sea, biking, DIY, climbing, office duty, etc) and it performs, looks great (one of the few that draws comments), and since 8th June, is running at -0.369s per day!!!
Not sure if that helps - but they seem a little patchy on direct support at the mo., although am still a fan. Might be different if I really needed to use their warranty and they didn't reply
I would not hesitate to buy one S/H and use an independent to maintain it. There is little that competes within their price range I reckon.
this is my current:
Just about see the t-piece within divers ext. in this one:
Last edited by notenoughwrists; 18th August 2014 at 12:34.
Well I can have no complaints about dealing directly with Fortis, the Sales Director (Monika) responded very quickly to my subsequent emails having initially been quite slow to respond to my initial mail. I understand from one of the first responses above that she may have been on holiday along with the rest of the company !
Based on the collective experiences above I thought I'd take my chances with Victorinox for the repair. I visited their service centre and was pleasantly surprised by the level of professionalism. I hope it will be reflected in the quality of their workmanship. Only time will tell.
The dealer however has gone completely AWOL and I have given up dealing with them. I certainly wouldn't use them again. Just in the interest of sharing (as we do) the authorised dealer was Olfert & Co based in Germany and I found them on Chrono24.
One interesting point worth noting. I was told by Fortis that they advise winding their watches no more than 3 times, and winding any more times than this risks damaging the movement ! I pointed out the fact that they should state this in their operating instructions, but was told that there simply isn't room.
I presume they mean no more than three revolutions of the crown per session, rather than three times in total ever? :-)
Yes I think you are probably right !! I can remember buying Oris many years ago and being told in the store that I should wind the watch about 30 times to "get it going". I bet they never figured out why they had so many watches back for repair....
Last edited by marcbe; 18th August 2014 at 17:03.
:-)
Page & Cooper are the new, current distributors for Fortis now – you should have no problem getting help, if you get in touch with Jonathan.
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