I am trying to identify the watch that would have been issued to a pilot of a Lancaster bomber in 1942.
My first guess is a 6B/159, but I read in Konrad Knirim's book that the 6B/159 is a navigator's watch and the
the pilot would most likely be issued with a 6B/234. Wouldn't the navigator have been issued with a Weems
6B/159, the pilot a 6B/159 and the flight engineer a 6B/234?
Is there any information available confirming what watches were issued to WWII bomber crews as standard aircrew issue?
Thanks for any help.
Terry
THis may be wildly wrong but whenever I see photos of WW2 airmen their watches all look like an assortment of personal pieces, presumably privately bought and owned and the same as were commercially available to the general public at the time.
But as I know a Lancaster crew member I will ask him.
Just spoke to a Lancaster Navigator. The crew were issued with watches, but he hasn't a clue as to what make or spec (he had other things on his mind at the time!) and it's also 70+ years ago.
He knows he signed it out and had to return at the end of the war (they were quite keen to get all their stuff back and had the chits and receipts and whatnot!)
My wife's grandfather was a Pathfinder Navigator in a Lancaster and was issued with this Omega. He was shot down and hidden by the French Resistance, after getting back to the UK and his squadron he tried to return the watch and was told 'you lost a brand new Lancaster, keep the bloody watch'!
Love that movement :)Originally Posted by Statts
My wife's grandfather was a Pathfinder Navigator in a Lancaster and was issued with this Omega. He was shot down and hidden by the French Resistance, after getting back to the UK and his squadron he tried to return the watch and was told 'you lost a brand new Lancaster, keep the bloody watch'!
Wow what a great thread. I only wish my Grandfather was still alive to ask him about this!
He was ground crew in 617 squadron. Before that he was a pilot, but after landing a bomber on the wrong part of an airstrip at the wrong time they banned him from flying, and they also found out he was totally colour blind. Hence his mistake in landing as I understand it was controlled by coloured lights.
My Grandfather (who is still alive and going strong at 92) was issued with two Omegas during his career in the RAF, he was a Lancaster pilot in the 1940's based out of Ely in Cambridgeshire and was issued with an Omega, he then moved on to be a jet bomber pilot/ test pilot, during this period he had a '53' pilot , he retired as a squadron leader and is still to this day RAF through and through
Can I just say how much I love this thread?
:-)
Yes, very interesting.
Funny in a tragic time
Last edited by oldandgrumpy; 15th October 2014 at 19:16.
They also came in black and white, or at least mine is:
And, as a matter of interest, they are a fair bit rarer than they would be, because in 1956, the RAF recased them in what are widely believed to be (and certainly look like) Dennison Aquatite cases to give the '56 6b/159. These are a damn site cheaper than the '53 6b/543 and arguably better looking. They also benefit from the wartime chronometer grade movement.
And while on the theme, here's a nice picture of the city of Lincoln at Biggin a year or two back.
While the two Lancasters (or even three for those who got up to Lincolnshire) was a remarkable sight, my memory card took that opportunity to die. So if anyone has a good shot of them (especially at Duxford) I'd be very grateful.
Last edited by M4tt; 15th October 2014 at 21:42.
As current serving RAF Aircrew I would give my left nut for a genuine WW2 Omega!
- - - Updated - - -
Amazing story and gorgeous watch, that is one special family heirloom!My wife's grandfather was a Pathfinder Navigator in a Lancaster and was issued with this Omega. He was shot down and hidden by the French Resistance, after getting back to the UK and his squadron he tried to return the watch and was told 'you lost a brand new Lancaster, keep the bloody watch'!
Thanks, we've got all his diaries, log books, uniform etc. His stories were excellent (he only died a couple of year's ago) and this year we went to the village in France where his Lanc' came down and ended up chatting to a couple of locals who remembered the plane crashing! Sadly three of the crew died but are buried in the village cemetery and the CWGC look after it and the locals still put flowers of their graves on the anniversary.
The watch needs a service to be back in good nick, but my Father-in-Law is reluctant to post it off anywhere, understandably. I've suggested sending it to Omega's service department or STS.
Wow that is so great that you have all his logbook and diaries, along with the watch etc it's a really great family story. I wish that I had written move detail in my logbook of sorties I've flown like they used to back in the day!
One Battle of Britain logbook said something along the lines of: "being outnumbered 4 to 1 gave us the advantage of having many more targets to shoot at"
Slightly off-topic, but in Bob Maloubier's memoirs of his time with the SOE - L'agent secret de Winston Churchill - he recounts that when he did his parachute training at Manchester Ringway they were given a tour of the packing shed. The instructor explained that the last thing the packer did was to place a piece of paper with their name in the 'chute so if it failed to open you would know who to complain to.
My dad did one-and-a-half tours in Lancs, as a navigator, with 61 Squadron (who flew more sorties than any other bomber squad during WW2) and 617 squad, after the raid.
He had an Omega watch issued to him which he lost having bailed out of a burning Lanc. He was subsequently threatened with repayment costs for losing it! Luckily they decided against it and gave him the DFC instead. Unfortunately I don't have his replacement watch....also long gone, just his DFC.
Paul.
Sorry, I just realised that no one has actually answered the OP questions.
So here we go:
That's a 6b/159 and the reason it is is to do with accuracy. The Omega 30SCT2 movement inside it was regulated poised and balanced to a chronometer standard (but not formally certified) - even though it doesn't have fine regulation - and it is over 10 ligne,. As such, it would have been specifically a navigators' watch (during the early years of the war), while a 6b/234 would have been a pilots' watch, and would have a non chronometer movement which was a minimum of an 8.5 ligne and thus would have been cheaper all round.
Later in the war, post the Butt report and the realisation that the majority of navigators simply were not up to the job, and the expansion of Bomber command, the 6b/159 pattern watches became reserved for the very best navigators, usually found in either five group under Don Bennett (who had an obsession with navigation) or the Pathfinder Force (PFF) and PFF and Five Group took the regulation, checking and servicing of watches very seriously as good timekeeping is the basis of good navigation.
From that point onwards, only the finest navigators (and sometimes pilots) in special operation squadrons such as 617 (itself in five group) and the PFF would get (usually Swiss) 6b/159 while the rump would get 6b/234 (usually American) watches sourced from companies like Elgin and Waltham ( take care with these as they are usually highly radioactive, as teh US tended to use radium in the lume). The earlier 6b/234 were usually the same standard as ATP and you'll sometimes find a Bravington or Moeris (for example) with a /234 marking from early in the war - obviously these are quite rare as the force was much smaller and the losses shocking. They are still dirt cheap.
The idea was that the precision navigation was undertaken by the PFF or Five Group (supported by other navigation aids) who would then lead the bomber stream and mark the target - once the target was marked less able navigators could see the markers and fires from a great distance and correct their positions. Once flying home, the navigation didn't have to be as accurate and a non chronometer watch was good enough.
One thing that confuses people is seeing watches marked with 6b/159 in which the /159 has been scribed out and 234 replaced. This occurred when movements were found not to be able to work to a suitable precision but still stable enough for general use and was fairly common. I'm told watches could go the other way, but I've not seen one.
By the time Bomber Command began to really expand, the American watches started to become very very common and you find every tom dick and harry wearing them, which is why they are as common as muck on ebay. If you want a watch that has seen air service from WWII then these are by far the cheapest route in and some, especially the Elgins have a truly lovely movement, the early ones even use an invar movement rather than mere brass and are arguably as good as the Omega (you can recognise them because the movement's plates almost invariably look as good as new.
Both Omega and the RAF built up quite a stockpile of the quality watches and movements, so there are a lot of 6b/159 out there with no marks. My assumption is that these were un-issued and sold off post war, but I've heard it argued that they simply were not always marked. I suspect this is just wishful thinking from those with un-issued ones. As for Omega's reserve of movements from WWII, just look at the random selection of thirty series movement to be found in their later Swedish Suveran watches.
So as a navigator with PFF, that's the right watch. It was the accuracy that mattered.
You will also sometimes find them with an HS8 marking. These were for Fleet Air Arm pilots and navigators. HS stood for hydrographic survey as it was their codes that the Royal Navy used o identify patterns and uses of watches. Obviously, given the type of flying done, HS8 watches were issued relatively freely and so are more common than you would expect.
*edit* sorry, I just realised I conflated posts one and two. I think that between them I got to the answer - /234 if it's 8.5 ligne or smaller and/or non chronometer then less able navigators (that's most of them) pilots and engineers. /159 - 10 ligne or larger and chronometer is high ranking personnel, navigators and fleet air arm. There were quite a wide range of makers, but Omega was among the largest and claims to have made half the Swiss watches used by RAF navigators.
That do?
Last edited by M4tt; 19th October 2014 at 20:30.
Jeepers, that's probably the most complete answer to a question in the history of the Internet. My hat's off to you.
M4tt,
Thank you for your detailed reply. It is also interesting to read other posters stories of their grandfathers WWII experiences.
Thanks gents.
Terry
Re my above post about my Grandfather being banned from flying, there'e a bit more to it but I didn't have time to post it all before, so here you go....
My grandfather was always "Poppa” to his grandchildren, I think Grandfather etc made him feel old!
Poppa was called up to RAF (there’s another really funny story about his call up papers too!). He was more than happy to do his bit for King and country. Fast forward a few years and he’s a pilot flying bombers.
One day he flew in to land back at the base. Upon landing saw another plane on the air strip that he just missed it. Once he was out of the plane he was immediately pulled up for dangerous flying.
He was accused of landing his plane at the wrong time/wrong place. From what I understand the air strips used to use coloured lights to indicate when to land/not land.
Poppa swore the lights he saw were correct, but the ground crew said he was wrong. Then under interview his own crew said he was wrong! He was told to accept the charge and take the punishment or he would be thrown out of the RAF with dishonour. Poppa was a man of his word and would not back down. He couldn’t understand why even his own crew had gone against him.
During one of the interviews there was a stand up argument between Poppa and his crew about what colours the landing indicators were during the time of the landing. At that moment the base doctor walked past the room and heard the conversation. The Doc came back to the room and asked Poppa “Smith, have you ever had a colour blindness test?”.
So it turned out Poppa had seen the correct colours after all, as he was completely colour blind. Something that had been missed during his medical. So he stayed in the RAF, but was to never fly again. He continued as ground support. He was duty officer on the night of the famed Dam Buster raids.
Many thanks to everyone sharing stories in this thread. Made me think of my Poppa and the good times we had together.
Last edited by Essexman; 18th October 2014 at 15:26.
My pleasure. I'm just jealous - my dad was in Palestine in '47, '48. They didn't give him a watch.
The colour blindness story has real resonance for me. As you may have noticed, there's a certain interest in aircraft, history of aircraft and the point at which the two meet with another hobby. Well, back when I was a kid, I knew I was going to be a pilot in the RAF, from about the age of six. So there I was, all the qualifications sorted, in the air training corps from the day I could join and every chance jumped at. So I'd made it quite clear I was joining up and they'd returned the favour. So it was gliders and then chipmunks and pilot training. All very lovely...
Until, having passed all the tests with flying colours, I came to the test for colour blindness that wasn't in a book, but was - yup- coloured lights. That was an unambiguous fail. You could almost hear the doors slam. The worst thing was the ATC. I'd just gone solo, but there was a fair bit more to do to actually qualify as a pilot. It just stopped. On the one hand, I understand, but on the other hand...
I never did join the RAF. If they'd have not slammed the door, they'd have got something out of me, because I love aircraft and I loved the RAF, but... well just but.
Well done Poppa!
Cheers!
His good wife (my Nanna) used to say "Good thing he was colour blind otherwise you kids might not be here!"
Excellent thread. Would love to see the OPs watch sympathetically restored - and the case back?
Gray
Great read this thread, thanks to all.
Btw, I wanted to join the RAF but was refused, good enough for the army though, but that wasn't for me. I declined, got my PPL and done my flying off my own back.
Best regards
Jimmy
I feel for you, you got a rough deal there!
I remember when I was tested and found to have red/green/brown colour blindness they gave me a long list of jobs I could never do. At the time it didn't mean anything to me, later in life I was turned down for a job because of it. Got from 400 down to the last 10 with only 6 being taken on. They engineer who I would have worked with even tested me with all the coloured signal cables they used and I was fine. But the powers that be thought it better not to take the risk. First time it really effected me.
This thread has got everything: brilliant stories, sad stories, detailed info, great pics. This is what the internet SHOULD look like: not kiddie porn and religious extremists but heroes and pathos and humour and history and accurate information.
Thanks everyone. I'm bookmarking this one.
great reading, thanks to the op and the contributors. you've inspired me to dig further into my grandfather's military service. nothing special, but he did have a bullet wound in his hand from an encounter in a graveyard with a group of germans. will have to see if anyone can remember whether he ever wore a watch.
I am really loving this forum, so much to learn and so many beautiful watches
Last edited by tasum; 19th May 2015 at 17:09. Reason: more info
I am find one Omega for sale like Statts Omega but they don't hawe any sign on case.
I do not Know does buy it or no and how much give for it.
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