Reply With QuoteEven if a watch is water resistant when closed, it will let in the atmosphere, and whatever moisture there is in the atmosphere when opened (e.g., when setting or winding). Closing it prevents changes to the atmosphere in the watch.
Best wishes,
Bob
Can the dial and hands on a fully waterproof watch start to rust?
Hi!
a) Can the dial and hands on a fully waterproof watch start to rust / oxidize? I guess the thinking could be: If it is waterproof, the process soon would run out of oxygen and stop? A waterproof watch won't let in sweat (=moisture and salt)?
b) Would you say that oxide on dial and hands on a quality watch of 20-30 years of age are a sign that the waterproof-nes hasn't been well maintained? Or are the oxide normal?
I've got 20-30 year old Certinas that show very little oxide and an IWC that sadly are beginning to show quite a lot. The IWC has seen much usage the last 15 years, the Certinas not.
Even if a watch is water resistant when closed, it will let in the atmosphere, and whatever moisture there is in the atmosphere when opened (e.g., when setting or winding). Closing it prevents changes to the atmosphere in the watch.
Best wishes,
Bob
There's no such thing as a fully waterproof watch and if seals/gaskets haven't been replaced in 20-30 years, I'd say the chances of some form of moisture ingress would be pretty high.
Just because a watch can survive 300m pressure doesn't mean it won't let any water in. If you wear it in the shower for instance then it's possible that steam could get in and screw things up. Water resistance is all about withstanding pressure, not really about water, which can find its way in in all sorts of ways really.
The watch will be fully resistant to liquid water but it is not fully resistant to water vapour.
Watches acquire the local humidity over time and the higher this is the faster oxidisation occurs.
Mitch
How?Originally Posted by ArghZombies
Oh good, the steam debate!.............. Again.
Where is that darned recline button
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
Someone put me straight on this just recently. It's called Entropy.
Do you mean the metal parts of the dial and hands, truly rusting, or are you observing the tritium lume plots turning a brown colour ? If your hands and dial are really rusting, the movement is too.....
Cheers..
Jase
Why is this still here at this price?
Oops, sorry, wrong thread. They all just seem the same these days
Just to be safe I take my 300m fully tested near new diver off when making a cup of tea.
Gray
The OP's raised a good point; corrosion/oxidation is a complex subject, like many people I know a bit about it but I don`t fully understand it.
20-30 years is a long time; tarnishing and oxidation will proceed extremely slowly, but after this length of time it's not unusual to see changes.
As for dials ageing, that's even more difficult to explain! I`ve seen dials in near-perfect condition after 50 years, yet other (seemingly identical) examples age significantly even though here's no obvious water ingress.
It's fair to say that modern watch dials and hands are far less likely to deteriorate over time than stuff produced 30-40 years ago.
I`ve no intention of re-kindling the steam/water vapour discussion, interesting though it was! Suffice to say that the atmosphere in your watch will never remain totally anhydrous.
Paul
Exposure to sunlight must be a big factor I'd guess.
The hands of my 5 year old Vostok Amphibia are starting to show speckles of oxydisation.
It also has to do with the absence of impurities during manufacture. Not easy to control without a big investment. Degradation, call it what you will, is going on all the time. Some degen just surfaces quicker than others with a helping hand from the manufacturing process.
Prevents, or perhaps delays?
You are correct, the seals in this IWC are 7 years old, total age of watch is 20-30. This watch has been close to a daily wearer.
Watch hasn't been showered or sauna bathed in. But daily use also in sweaty summers.
You are correct. Without going into the physics too deep, I know that for example that H2 gas will (at a low rate) escape from a completely sealed steel container. It simply transfers through!
The tritium is brown and non functioning. The dial and hands are rusting a little. But what I'm not following what you say about the movement? "movement is too....." Please tell me more? Can a movement that goes un-serviced for too long harm the dial and hands? Oil escaping the movement and damaging the dial and hands?
See below.
And especially regarding the tough economic times the swiss watch industry went through 1975-1995 (circa), I would not be surprised if even very well known brands cut some corners!
Can a movement that goes un-serviced for too long harm the dial and hands? Oil escaping the movement and damaging the dial and hands?
I doubt there is enough oil in a watch for it to reach the front of the dial to do any damage.
Last edited by jegger; 1st April 2014 at 23:24.
The only way for oil to find it's way onto the dial is if the watch has been heavily over-oiled and the oil has 'crept' away from where it should be. Provided it's been applied sensibly by someone with a modicum of skill/care, it won`t end up on the dial. This isn`t an age-related thing. I think many people would be surprised how little oil is applied to a watch.
Tarnishing on hands can sometimes be partially removed by careful cleaning whilst the watch is being serviced. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn`t. However, this needs doing v. carefully, particularly with old dive watches, owing to the risk of disturbing the lume. Lume becomes very fragile when it's old and it can all too easily drop out. The hands then need reluming and matching to the aged lume on the dial....and believe me that isn`t easy. Another good reason why I`m reluctant to work on vintage divers.
Paul
1) In order for a gas (water vapor) to permeate through a porous substance like rubber, there has to be a pressure difference across the barrier.
The pressure difference between the 80% humidity outside and the 40% humidity inside the watch there just isn't much push….
2) Permeability of rubbers is around 0.000005 (cc)(cm)/(s)(sq cm)(cmHg). That means 0.000005 cubic cm of water will pass through a 1 cm by 1 cm area of 1 cm thick rubber with a 1 cmHg differential pressure behind it….
That is not a very large amount of water.
3) Normally, corrosion on the hand and around the markers is due to the fact that the luminous compounds are hygroscopic. So, if there is any moisture in the case, it will quickly get concentrated on the hands and eventually start attacking the metal plating of the hands. The hands themselves are usually brass, so they don't "rust", but once the plating get damaged, the brass may react with the by-products of the breakdown of the lume.
Last edited by lysanderxiii; 1st April 2014 at 14:43.
Thanks Paul (Walkerwek1958) and Lysanderxiii for your technical contributions which I find most educational...for me they make hanging around here justifiable.
Am I right in thinking modern Rolex hands and the circular 'plots' on the dial are white gold? And if they are wouldn't that solve any corrosion issues? I've not seen a Luminova Rolex with corrosion issues on the hands and maybe this is why?
here an extract of AU main physical and chemical specifications:
'Gold is a good conductor of heat and electricity and reflects infrared radiation strongly. Chemically, it is unaffected by air, moisture and most corrosive reagents, and is therefore well suited for use in coins and jewelry and as a protective coating on other, more reactive metals. However, it is not chemically inert. Gold is almost insoluble, but can be dissolved in aqua regia or solutions of sodium or potassium cyanide, for example.'
Without unearthing old arguments, there are some great points here but there is also one missing which is especially relevant to the OP, who says the watch was a daily wearer in hot summers. That is the effect of temperature on the pressure in the watch.
Heating and cooling raises and lowers the temperature (and therefore pressure) of the air in the watch. These changes do contribute (on a miniscule level) to the exchange of air within the watch, including the inherent moisture in the air.
Thus wearing the watch in hotter regions (and seasons) will effectively pump more water vapour (the most common corrosive agent) into the watch.
This is especially so if the temperature change is rapid and the watch is "quenched" - for instance going swimming in the sea having been sat on the beach roasting for a while.
As a daily wearer, the number of these cycles is massively increased (drawers or safes have no such large temperature changes), so the amount of water introduced into the case increases with wear in hotter climes, as does the associated corrosion.
D
This holds true if the watch isn`t sealed correctly, but that's unlikely to be the case. Other than permeation of water vapour through the seals (a miniscule effect) there should be no exchange of air into and out if the watch. Yes, the pressure will fluctuate by a small marguin, but that won`t translate into ingress of air......unless the watch isn`t sealed.
Paul
--> radical and simple solution, fill the water with oil!
Oxidation is not a problem anymore and as a side effect the liquid not being compressible the watch will withstand a bit of pressure....
The major reason watches from tropical places show more internal corrosion than those from elsewhere is that they were serviced in tropical environments, therefore have higher internal humidity to start with....
In the words of Ian Dury...They're ain't arf been some clever bastards (lucky bleeders).
I never took physics and failed Chemistry miserably...I'll get my coat!
Posting Permissions
