Reply With QuoteI got the same mail. It's a lot of watch for under 100 quid!
Just got the newsletter in the email.
Cracking watches for under 100.
http://www.creationwatches.com/produ...p481-4669.html
I got the same mail. It's a lot of watch for under 100 quid!
I did notice that they state that the price will rise once the initial batch is sold.
It's a fine watch and good price, but I still prefer the original Monster. The Seiko 5s, in any amount of cladding, just do nothing for me.
Paul
I agree - although would be a great watch for my 13 year old son. Mind you he keeps falling off his skateboard so he can stick with his g shock collection!Originally Posted by Tokyo Tokei
I haven't bought anything from Creation, but what I dislike about them is they are not very up-front about the fact that they don't ship from the UK, so any price you see is ex. VAT (and Duty where applicable). According to dutycalculator.com, the actual landed price in this case would be £118, but that excludes any additional fee (about £7 I think) that the Courier will add if the taxes have not been declared and paid at source (and since they aren't including it in the price I can only assume they do not do that). So that puts the actual landed price at about £125 or so.
In particular, it irks me that if you actually try to find this information on their site and read the FAQ, rather than provide any real figures they instead state rather glibly "...However, in such rare cases even with the tax you will end up saving substantially by shopping with us", which is blatantly untrue in many cases. Certainly it has been untrue of everything I've been interested in before now. In this case, they are maybe £10-20 cheaper than you could get at any time, but it's not enough for me to trip over myself to buy one. I do rather like the Mini Monster and if it really cost under £100 all-in, I might consider it.
It's also worth noting that because they are not based in the UK, you have none of the usual statutory rights under the Sales of Goods act if you buy from them. Again, what bothers me about them is not this fact per se: I've bought plenty of things from international sellers taking this into account. It's the fact that they show prices to UK customers in GBP to make it seem like you are buying from a company with a UK presence, when in fact you are not, and keep any information about where they are really based completely hidden. The only mitigation is that lots of people seem to have bought from them with no problems, but it would take a really good offer before I'd take a chance with them.
I believe that they ship from Malaysia, but I don't remember exactly. Someone that's bought from them before can probably correct me on the details if I am wrong.
Can it get more clear than this ? I guess you never bothered to place a click on their website but are very quick to dismiss them ?
Sorry but I could not help myself. Creation has great prices, even including the VAT they are still normally at a big discount compared to any UK prices. And if you choose the registered mail option, they first send it to some place in Europe, normally Belgium, and then to you, the chances of dodging the VAT altogether being medium to highPlease note that customs taxes / import duties are not included in our price. It is the buyer's responsibility to pay for any customs taxes or import duties imposed by the customs of the buyer's country.
Do you charge any tax on your products?
For exports, CreationWatches.Com does not charge any additional tax on the prices listed on our website. You only pay what you see. For some countries, you may be charged import tax by the customs of your country which is the same as the GST or VAT in your country..
P.S. and the reason they are showing you GBP prices is because they allow you to pay in GBP, a favor I would be very thankful for, what with the ripoff rates the banks or PayPal give you . And yes, they don't charge you extra to pay via PayPal either, like some other online sellers do. In my books of online watch sources, Creation would be the very last to fault for anything. I am very grateful they exist and they provide such an excellent service!
P.P.S. They are based in SG, not Malaysia, not that makes any much difference.
Last edited by Dan83bz; 14th March 2014 at 18:09.
Ho ho, very good sir, I certainly admire the self-congratulatory applause that you have given yourself for reasons known only to yourself. However, if you actually read what I said, you'll note that I did read that bit in their FAQ: in fact I quoted that exact paragraph. And no, their statement about tax liability is neither particular clear and direct, nor is the information given up-front (like, next to the price for instance).Can it get more clear than this ? I guess you never bothered to place a click on their website but are very quick to dismiss them ?
I also did the calculation of how much the additional tax actually comes to. My point, which you seem to have missed entirely, is that:
(a) Their prices do not include the tax.
(b) They do not provide any way of helping you to calculate the tax.
(c) The only information they do give is a disclaimer buried in the middle of the FAQ (and footnote on the shipping page), where they also make the dubious claim that their prices are cheaper (than who?) anyway.
(d) By not stating which country they are sending the goods from, they make it difficult to accurately determine in advance what the tax liability will actually be.
(e) I consider their marketing approach to be somewhat dishonest (in spite of my knowledge that they have a fairly good reputation otherwise).
(f) I find, contrary to what you claim (as does their FAQ), that often their prices, once you factor in the tax, are not all that great. This offer is better than most that I've seen and it's still not that good, IMO.
In any case, perhaps you did not find this information useful, but I'm sure some people would find the difference between the true price of £125 and the advertised price of £94 to be at least a little surprising, and potentially an unpleasant surprise if you only discover this when the goods arrive, since at that point you can either pay the tax, or pay the shipping costs when the goods are returned. Either way, you may not be getting the deal you thought you were getting.
I'm not disputing that Creation possibly do provide a good service, for those that know in advance exactly what they are getting and, having done the tax calculations, are happy with the deal. If you are happy with them then that's fine, but don't pretend that they are completely transparent about either their location or their total landed prices.
Has anyone that has bought watches from Creation been charged VAT or duty? I very much doubt it.
It says on the front page of their website that they are in Singapore except for JDM which are shipped directly from Japan.
Last edited by Scrubnut; 14th March 2014 at 18:54.
Four deliveries, no charges.
Recently bought a Seiko kinetic BFK from Creation was was extremely impressed.
Price was excellent, ordered on Saturday and on my wrist by the following Wednesday.
No VAT and duty to pay.
Best service ever.
I haven't bought anything from Creation, but I have bought a few things from outside the EU. My experience has been if it's new and over the threshold, Customs will usually pick it up. If it's second hand then it's usually OK regardless of value although this probably would not be the case with anything very high-value, as it would certainly need to be declared for insurance reasons and customs would not ignore anything with a high value declaration.
I'm pretty sure a company like Creation that sells mostly high-ish value items will be on the Customs known-senders list, so anything that comes through with the wrong declaration will be picked up. Note that if they under-declare and are caught, then you are liable and the fee goes up as it's technically fraud. In such cases, you are legally the "importer" and as such, are fully criminally liable if the sender does not comply with the rules.
I have bought from Creation (many times) and have never been under the impression that they ship from the UK.
On each product page right above the price is the option to change the currency. Right next to the price it says "Free Worldwide Shipping". Above that is a phone number that's clearly non-UK. And at the top right of the page is the option to translate it into any one of fifteen languages.
Anyone who thinks they're buying a UK watch shouldn't be allowed to use the internet alone.
For the record I've never paid duty or VAT on a purchase from Creation. As a good socialist, that upsets me but I struggle through.
Last edited by MakeColdplayHistory; 14th March 2014 at 19:20.
I purchased a Seiko Skx007 last week from Creation, due to another heads up thread.
No complaints whatsoever with the service provided.
The price stated on their site was the price I paid, not a penny more.
DHL Tracking number provided, kept an eye on its journey to the U.K. via Germany.
No problem buying from them again, even though they are not in the U.K.
That's interesting actually. Maybe they have some way of avoiding the import tax by relaying through Germany, which is in the EU (and hence, not liable for import duty or VAT).
I've bought 3 watches from Creationwatches and was charged tax each and every time here in Denmark. The last one was a Hamilton Khaki King where I ordered the white dial, but was sent the black. The following correspondence was surrealistic. It felt as if I was conversing with a robot who only had a few pre-programmed responses, and sent one each week or so. Most of them having absolutely nothing to do with them sending me the wrong watch.
It ended with me just giving up getting any meaningful response and keeping the watch, but swearing never to buy anything from them again.
Clearly you have little knowledge of how taxes work. In this case, how&why could they, sitting in Singapore, arrange to collect taxes on behalf of Her Royal Highness ? Sure, eBay has a system like that and we all know what that means, I'm basically priced out most of the time, especially on lower value items from ebay US as the service providers command princely sums that most often than not means the shipping + tax is as much or higher than the item. Such as THIS that I wanted to buy recently.
Mate, you're just going on rambling when us folks are telling you, from experience and not from something else that it's different for these fine people at Creationwatches. Don't know what shipping "magic" they do, how they re-direct the stuff, but most people, from various EU countries including UK do not pay VAT or anything else on arrival. If you don't want to listen to that, it's fine, suit yourself, be a good sport and always pay your taxes, buy from High Ripoff Street only, but let the rest of us enjoy a good service and the occasional dodge, I myself especially being in a country where taxes rarely ever end up doing good things and instead line up some lazy bastard's pockets, should know and should care about it.
And NO, I have absolutely no connection to creationwatches other than being a satisfied customer.
Last edited by Dan83bz; 14th March 2014 at 22:00.
They certainly have their way. Another "no customs" customer here.
Next time, try the @registered mail@ option instead of couries/DHL. I have, whilst being in Denmark/CPH, oh about a year ago and no tax. Can't guarantee that of course, maybe your purchases were more recent and things changed in the meantime.
Bought from Creation and had no charges (UK delivery via DHL)
There was a small bit of dust on the dial which I ignored, that, going from recent posts on Creation's customer service, might have been difficult to resolve..
Quick, efficient service though.
Nice username. Googlewhack that is, hey ?
I am afraid it is you that is somewhat confused in this regard, not me. I suggest you look it up if you don't understand how customs declarations work.
Do you work for HMRC?
No.
After all the carrying on here, it's highly likely
Ok, Robt, I give up, you win, be happy to know your cock is bigger than mine! (it's always about cock-measuring, isn't it?), I suggest we end this senseless off-topic chat about taxes, creation and other things that don't really matter and just focus on nice watches such as the Seiko this thread is about
. Deal?
I thought this thread was about the fact that Creation are selling the aforementioned "bargain", for "under £100", which is true if you happen to be lucky and get away with not paying the tax. If you are less fortunate, the landed price will be somewhere in the region of £125.
YMMV.
Frankly, I'm more than happy to stop discussing this.
Well why is it that when people are telling you that you don't pay extra charges, from their own experience, are you going on about duty calculations? Everybody knows what could happen. But it doesn't .
Last edited by Scrubnut; 15th March 2014 at 11:20.
Perhaps it is easiest to explain that creations is magic. It is staffed entirely by wizards, fairies and pixies. VAT is not an issue due to their otherworldly connections, in any circumstances, ever, not even once in the eighties when my little brother said that fairies are gay.
Also they ship faster than light. Santa could learn a lot from their logistics department if only he'd do a short term of work experience in his off season.
Last edited by watchthis; 15th March 2014 at 00:16. Reason: engwish fale
Maybe it doesn't happen, sometimes. Or maybe it does, sometimes. Who knows? A couple of people say they haven't had charges. One person in this thread says they have. Who do you believe? Does it matter?
Before writing out my first post in this thread, I happened to quickly look up (using dutycalculator.com) what the charges would actually be, because unlike some people that seem to be happy to bury their heads in the sand about this, I want to know how much I might end up having to pay for something before I consider buying it. But maybe that's just me. Maybe I'm a bit thick-headed like that.
I think we believe everyone, don't we?
One person in Denmark, outside the EU, has paid duty. Everyone in the UK has paid the screen price.
Do you have any evidence to back up this ridiculous statement?
You'd think it was ridiculous wouldn't you, but nope, it's the law. Look it up on the HMRC website if you don't believe me. I don't have time to Google it for you right now.
Denmark is most definitely in the EU :-)
Please don't think I'm complaining about paying duty. Prices were still good compared to Denmark.
This. I've never been charged VAT or fees on anything shipped by them from Singapore but the one JDM I ordered did get clobbered for customs and handling. I use this as my simple rule.
Sorry - got confused with Norway.
And duty is a good thing. Any of us who use hospitals, roads and nuclear submarines should be paying our taxes with a happy heart.
Note that if they under-declare and are caught, then you are liable and the fee goes up as it's technically fraud. In such cases, you are legally the "importer" and as such, are fully criminally liable if the sender does not comply with the rules.After reading the above, I just got an ideaSince there's quite a bit of whining about politics and politicians in the UK lately, why don't organize a "fundraiser" towards ordering some watches from Creation and sending it to the doorstep of the likes of Mr. Brown.
If the above is indeed true, eventually, surely they will "get caught" and thrown in the dungeons for that ?Wish it was as simple as that
In Cyprus it happened quite a few times to get stung for taxes (not from Creation) but here it's a koumbaro routine. (for those of you that don't know the term koumbaro means something like "godfather" or even "cousin/relative"). Plenty of times I saw people in front of me at customs (normally it's quite a queue, hectic, completely Brownian motion kind of place -pun intended) who received expensive items such as but not limited to iphones, from their relatives in the US, etc. and then of course, as their were probably cousin of some cousin, as everyone seems to be related to everyone down here, they just got the green flag, whereas expats as myself of course rarely get a break. At least in the UK you don't get discriminated upon, everybody pays
, like the fella said above, for the reupholstering of the Royal throne, nuclear submarines and a few other items.
And BTW, for those of you who might go on as to what great benefits taxation brings, and that the higher the better for society, please remember that VAT is a recent thing and I think there's plenty of members here who lived those days and could argue that the UK was definitely more civilized before sky-high taxes on consumption.
Last edited by Dan83bz; 15th March 2014 at 17:24.
I don't see any problem with their prices and not stating more clearly that you can face possible extra charges when importing non-EU goods.
Everyone should be fully aware that import non-EU goods can be subject to import taxes.
I am also in EU, but not in UK. My experience with Creationwatches (and I bought several pieces from them):
- unfortunate sending with DHL, which means extra 20-30€ for local DHL handling charges (thieving bastards) + 30% import VAT and customs tax, no avoiding extra charges
- good prices, so that even with tax watches are still much cheaper than in any local store
There is one alternative to the Creationwatches - Skywatches. Bought few pieces from them and all was ok. Sent via EMS post, so in our country it is 50/50% chance that import tax will not be charged. Don't know about UK.
They route the packages trough Sweden.
http://www.skywatches.com.sg
Btw they still have old Monsters for sale at very good prices.
http://www.skywatches.com.sg/reviews...ult/?q=SKX779+
Last edited by Rocky555; 15th March 2014 at 20:23.
Thanks for that. The "classic" Monster has been in and out of my collection a few good times. I might just go ahead and get it again. One should always have at least one Monster lying around, for that time the cut off the electricity and you need a handy torch!
I really dislike the new Monster design, so I was happy to find old ones for sale at Skywatches at such good price.Thanks for that. The "classic" Monster has been in and out of my collection a few good times. I might just go ahead and get it again. One should always have at least one Monster lying around, for that time the cut off the electricity and you need a handy torch!
Monsters are great value for money, although designwise they cause love or hate reacton.
Nobody said that you are actually likely to be prosecuted under the law as it stands, just that it's what the law states. Remember that the law was written long before websites like eBay existed, so at the time if you were bringing goods from another country, you were an importer, most likely doing it for business reasons. It is also that way because as the recipient, you are the one liable to pay the tax, so it stands to reason that if there are any additional charges to be added for not following the procedures, you will be liable for that too. Otherwise, the HMRC would have to deal with cases of fraud by trying to track down the sender (by definition, in another country) and somehow send them a bill which they would have no legal power to enforce.If the above is indeed true, eventually, surely they will "get caught" and thrown in the dungeons for that ?
What happens in practise is that if there is a misdeclaration, you might, depending on how customs is feeling on that particular day, end up with a charge that is greater than the duty and tax combined. It's never happened to me so I don't know if you have the option at that point to simply have the goods sent back and pay nothing (depending on the refund you might get from the seller), or if they will pursue it. I'm pretty sure if you told them you never ordered the goods in the first place, they would just return them to the sender, so your plan would not work.
There are all kinds of laws and regulations that, on the face of it, seem stupid. It doesn't mean they don't exist. I didn't write it, I just happen to apparently know more about it than you do. Perhaps because I spent a few hours reading up on it up once, after I got stung by an unexpected VAT bill. I was more annoyed about the fee added on by ParcelForce in that case, which it seems they have a right to do unless the customs declaration was filed in advance (like eBay does now).
My experience recently have seen my inbound watches come through Leipzig in Germany, with DHL. I think Creation used to use FedEx, but they appear to have switched allegiance.
I have had my fair share of Monsters, but none have made it into a keeper . . . yet!
Ordered a new Mini-Monster (Seiko 5) from the OP.
I never said that. You seem to be saying that it's reasonable, with no sense of irony, that a business can trade in GBP, clearly targeting UK consumers, yet it is too much effort to find out the first thing about UK tax and advertising laws? In particular the fact that in the UK, all advertised retail prices must be inclusive of tax (Price Marking Order 2004). Hence it seems reasonable that if you are going to give UK prices then you should either include the tax, or state up-front that it is not included because you are not a UK company.
Of course, if you are also going to go to the effort of shipping from an EU country that is not your point of origin to avoid VAT and import duty, then it seems like that is something you might want to advertise. Perhaps say "Your item will ship from the EU, so there is no additional tax to pay" so there is no doubt about it. Of course, strictly speaking if you do this, you would normally have to pay VAT in that country (this happens if you buy a from steinhartwatches.de for instance), so I'm not sure how they are getting around that. Maybe that's why it isn't 100% reliable?
Rob, Creation targets customers all over the world. The national laws and taxes of any customer's country are nothing to do with them. This is how all vendors who trade internationally work. Why would you expect Creation to be any different to the norm?
To recap: Creation are operating in an entirely common, normal fashion.
Creation is not within UK jurisdiction. What UK law says is of no relevance to them, just as it is irrelevant to other vendors outside the UK or EU.
Creation don't give "UK prices". They show their sale price. This is the same sale price to any customer anywhere in the world. You could more accurately call it the "World price". This is the same thing that all Internet vendors who sell worldwide do. What taxes any particular country applies to imports is nothing to do with the vendor[1].
What makes you think Creation does that? As has been noted many times, their watches are shipped either from Singapore (in which case they almost always avoid being taxed on import to the UK) or from Japan (in which case they often or usually seem to get taxed).
This mirrors my experience with buying from abroad: In my experience, shipments from the USA, Japan and Taiwan almost always get taxed whereas shipments from China, Hong Kong and Singapore very rarely get caught for tax. I have not investigated in detail why this this. I suspect it is a combination of truthfulness (or lack thereof) on customs declarations and limited resources available to the Border Force.
It should also be noted that even if Creation did ship from stock they held in an EU country, it would not "avoid VAT and import duty". This is because they would still have to pay the VAT and Customs Duty[2] on the shipment when they brought it into the EU (albeit at wholesale prices). Thus there would be no saving for them. Notably a large shipment would be more likely to get noticed and taxed than small, individual shipments to consumers.
There is no doubt now. Creation don't say this because it is not what they do. What Creation both do and say is exactly the same as what every other Internet vendor who sells outside of their own country does. You are criticising Creation for adhering to international trading norms!
They are not "getting around" anything. There is no hidden magic. As I said, most watch shipments from Singapore seem to get through untaxed in my experience. As above, blame not-necessarily-wholly-honest customs declarations and/or an understaffed Border Force if you feel a need to cast blame.
What isn't 100% reliable? By and large it seems that Creation do deliver what they promised. They certainly do not promise to evade taxes.
The only place where Creation fall down compared to other vendors seems to be in their customer service if they supply a dud watch (in which case paying by PayPal is beneficial). Happily this seems to happen very rarely indeed.
Footnotes:-
1: You mentioned eBay in this regard and that is a rather specific scheme. HMRC runs a voluntary scheme for foreign vendors in certain countries whereby they can prepay import taxes (e.g. VAT, Customs Duty, etc.) for import into the UK. The eBay scheme is actually operated by, I think, Pitney Bowes and I understand that it is an optional service for US eBay sellers. In fact it often offers very poor value to the buyer: The service fee charged by the operator of the scheme is often higher than the UK courier's fees would be, meaning that it does not make sense to take that option (either for seller or buyer).
2: The only tax that is relevant for consumers in the UK in relation to watch purchases is VAT. In theory, Customs Duty at 4.5% is also payable on watch imports from outside the EU but due to a combination of (a) the way it is charged (it is bracketed to a very small absolute amount) and (b) HMRC/Border Force collection policies, consumers will rarely if ever pay it. If you import a large quantity of watches in a single shipment then you will pay Customs Duty but due to the bracketing calculation it will always be a trivial amount of money.
Last edited by markrlondon; 16th March 2014 at 04:02.
This is not true. Certainly there are lots of online retailers that are trading internationally while unaware of the legal intricacies of doing so, but that doesn't mean it's as simple as you make it out to be. I don't claim to be an expert in this regard, but I have been a technical consultant on a number of large-scale international e-commerce projects, so I know for certain that it's not as simple as you seem to think it is. Generally, any blue-chip company trading internationally will have a team of international legal experts to deal with all the ins and outs. I've been involved in discussions with said legal teams, but as I said, I don't claim to be a legal expert myself.
Of course, just because you are breaking laws in a country that you aren't based in doesn't mean you will ever be successfully prosecuted. The Internet is still somewhat ahead of international commerce treaties in that regard.
To be clear, I am not saying Creation are breaking any UK laws, and have never claimed that. Let's not conflate issues about what is or isn't legal with my opinion about what it means to be transparent in your marketing.
What Creation certainly are doing, though you may again wish to disagree with me on this, is that they are targeting the UK market (not exclusively of course!). You do not include GBP pricing on a website unless you are a either a UK company or are specifically targeting UK consumers. Of course, companies that are trading in GBP through a UK subsidiary are in a very different legal position than companies like Creation that have no local presence. What bothers me is the fact that they've gone to the bother to target the UK without apparently putting anything like the same effort into being up-front about their all-inclusive prices (as is customary in the UK; of course in the US and many other countries, this is different). I will reiterate it again for the hard of thinking: I am not saying they are doing anything illegal. And while there may indeed be other websites doing this, it is certainly not the de facto standard.
There's generally a lot of confusion in this thread as people are conflating multiple things.
1. I don't like the way Creation present information on their site. It's actually a relatively minor thing that's been blown out of proportion. It's also my opinion. If you don't like it, ignore it and move on.
2. I have stated some facts about import duty and VAT liability. I even checked how much the total landed price would be in the event of customs adding the VAT.
Other people have variously made the assertion that VAT never gets charged on anything bought from Creation. Maybe that's true. If it is, either a lot of people are being inexplicably lucky and who knows whether that will hold consistently, or it has something to do with their routing of parcels through an intermediate country in the EU. In the case of the latter, they don't seem to be making any promises about it, so YMMV. Also, I'll reiterate that I am no legal expert, so I have no idea whether that is a form of tax avoidance (legal) or tax evasion (not legal).
Rob, perhaps it is not true in your experience but I can only say that, in my experience, the way that Creation are doing business is identical to how most other vendors who sell worldwide do business. I have purchased from vendors in the USA, Canada, Russia, China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Japan, Singapore, and I can't remember where else and they all do exactly what Creation do in this respect: They may (or may not) quote prices in UK Pounds (as well as other currencies), they quote a single worldwide tax-exclusive price, they do not include UK or any other country's taxes (other than their own country's or state's taxes, if selling to their own domestic audience), and so on. They all work the same.This is not true.
What "legal intricacies" would those be exactly? Creation really don't seem to be missing out on anything.
I'd be quite happy legally speaking to run a UK business exporting to customers outside of the EU on the same basis that Creation are using (i.e. noting that import taxes are the responsibility of the customer and quoting VAT-exclusive prices).
But I have not made it out to be especially easy. Creation are simply doing what is normal and necessary, easy or not. On the other hand, could it be that you are looking for problems that aren't really there in reality?
Again, I ask you what intricacies Creation and the vast majority of other vendors (in my experience) are missing?
For someone with such experience you seem remarkably surprised by what I can absolutely promise you, from experience, is normal and perfectly acceptable practice to the rest of the world!
I do not doubt your experience but it does seem to have been gained from within a certain perspective, one that is not representative of common or accepted practice outside of "large-scale international e-commerce projects".
It is important to understand that blue chip companies have legal experts for everything. However, in practice many of the concerns of such large internationally-based enterprises are of no relevance to the vast majority of smaller players. When you have aspects of your business based in a particular country it is important to comply (as far as is necessary) with the laws of that country. This concern does not, however, apply to most businesses.
Ok. Why did you introduce the idea, then?
Ok. Creation's marketing is crystal clear, from what I can see. It is stated clearly on their website that they have business locations in the USA and Singapore. In common with all other exporting Internet businesses, they quote tax-exclusive prices and do not concern themselves with import taxes in any particular country, other than to note that they might apply.
Quite. More precisely, they are targetting not just the UK but, as I said, the whole world.
Or, of course, unless you are targetting the whole world and thus the UK as part of it.
But here's the key thing: What of it? To argue about whether or not Creation are targetting the UK specifically is an irrelevance. It makes no difference whatsoever!
Even if Creation are explicitly targetting the UK, they are still doing what the vast majority of other Internet businesses that sell internationally are doing. That is: They are complying with all the laws that apply in their jurisdiction. They have missed nothing out that they should have included. It is perfectly normal, perfectly reasonable, and perfectly correct not to quote UK import taxes.
Quite so. Most businesses are simply not in this position.
Let me re-iterate once again: Creation is perfectly normal and perfectly open (even though you don't seem to believe it). They are running their business completely correctly. They do not concern themselves with UK taxes because it is fundamentally none of their business (just as it would not be my business to concern myself with Singaporean taxes if I was targetting Singapore). They really, honestly, are not missing out on any intricacies.
This statement does not seem to make sense. "All-inclusive" of what, exactly? Creation are absolutely clear about the basis of their pricing, exactly as most other Internet vendors are. There is nothing hidden on their website.
The prices that Creation quote, in common with the vast majority of other Internet vendors, are exclusive of taxes (just as UK businesses quote when selling to non-EU customers). This is because any taxes are between the importing customer and their local tax jurisdiction.
If I was running a UK business that focussed on sales outside of the EU, this is exactly how I would quote prices. That is because that is how it works. I do not charge VAT on sales to non-EU customers.
I don't know why you expect it to be any different or how you think it should be different. This is all perfectly normal.
Indeed not. But you are expecting them to do something that very few other vendors do (in fact none I can remember seeing).
For example, Amazon.com doesn't even do what you expect Creation to do, as I recall.
So you say but I have never seen any company that sells from outside of the EU do what you expect (i.e. include calculation of UK taxes). It is simply an unreasonable expectation. A few do it as part of a HMRC scheme but it is a very small number.
It is the basis of your dislike that has caused the reaction. You don't seem to have noticed or want to believe that what Creation are doing is, in fact, absolutely normal and standard practice worldwide (including for UK businesses selling to non-EU customers). There is nothing hidden on their website that should not be hidden.
You seem to be picking on Creation for not going that extra mile to suit you as a wouldbe UK customer when everyone else is (more or less) the same! You only have to look around a bit and you'll see how true this is.
Note that "import duty" (Customs Duty, to be precise) does not apply in practice for anything but very large shipments of watches. Only VAT is of concern here for most customers. I can't speak for what others have said about VAT on imports but, in practice, I have not disagreed with the substance of your comments about the rate of VAT that should apply to imports from Creation.
This is certainly true for the vast majority of shipments from Creation that come from Singapore. As noted in the thread, when they ship from other locations (e.g. Japan) then stuff is more likely to get taxed.
It is not a matter of luck, per se. As I said earlier on in this thread it appears to me to be a matter of (a) truthfulness (or lack thereof) on customs declarations and (b) focus of available staff within the Border Force.
Both of these factors are subject to change over time.
For now, it's just how things are.
The people of some countries are famously economical with the truth on customs declarations but this is still not the whole reason why shipments from some countries very often avoid taxation when entering the UK. It also just seems, as I suggested above, to be to do with deployment of resources within Border Force.
No, that's not how it works. As far as I can see they don't do any such routing and, even if they did, it couldn't and wouldn't make any difference to taxes. There is no evidence that I am aware of for them trying to repackage things to make them appear as if they originated inside the EU (which is the only way it would make a difference).
It has been noted that some of Creation's shipments come in via a seemingly odd geographic route but this is wholly under the control of their courier.
Creation just ship from Singapore (or from partners in Japan or elsewhere) and the courier does the rest. There is no magic going on here and no dishonesty about origin of the goods.
There might be a certain element of dishonesty about what is written on customs declarations from some vendors in certain countries but I couldn't say for certain and, even if there is, it still seems to be only a small part of what allows large number of shipments to get through untaxed from those countries.
In summary, you seem to me to be expecting more of Creation than almost any other company in a similar situation actually provides and this makes it look like you are picking on Creation unfairly. And it is this seemingly unfair bias that I think has caused the reaction to your comments.
If you doubt that the way Creation does business is perfectly normal, just go and have a look at non-EU vendors on the Internet. They are almost all very similar in this respect.
Last edited by markrlondon; 16th March 2014 at 08:58.
Mark, I'm not particularly interested in arguing this round in circles. I've stated my opinion about what should be said on a website, you disagree. Fine, we'll leave it there as we're never going to agree.
If you read back through the whole thread, you will find that in terms of the tax question, we're essentially saying the same thing, so I don't see much need to argue with you. Which is that, if the price you see on Creation ends up being the final price you pay, it's more a matter of luck than anything. I'm happy for anyone so inclined to postulate ad infinitum about the odds, this being due to lack of border control staff or whatever: doesn't matter to me because either way it's a dice roll, so my point still stands that you should at least be aware of the actual landed price in the event you end up paying tax and weigh that up against other offers for a fair comparison.
The only point worth discussing is if there really is some magic that Creation does to prevent the recipient paying any tax. One possibility is that it has something to do with routing their pace,s via an intermediary. You assume this is all the courier, but it might not be. If it were the courier, the point of origin would be SG and it would make no difference to customs. I can't speak from experience on this.
The final option is that they are under declaring the value. That's fine if you get away with it, but as I noted earlier, if customs notice this going on they can charge further fees on top of what it would have normally cost, and it is technically fraud. You, the recipient, are the one liable in such cases even though the sender made the declaration. This last point is somewhat shocking and people seem to have a hard time believing it, but I'm sure you're sufficiently diligent to confirm this is true, if you are not already aware of it.
I think that it is the bases of your opinion as you stated them that has caused this discussion. Whilst you are of course free to dislike what Creation do for any reasons you wish, your criticism of them and the reasons you have given for your criticism nevertheless seem very surprising and are definitely comment-provoking since, as both I and others have pointed out to you, what they do is perfectly normal and appropriate practice worldwide. You have said that this is not true but if you investigate how vendors who sell internationally operate you will find that it is true. Thus if you wish to criticise Creation on these terms you should criticise nearly every other Internet vendor who sells internationally too.
Yes, as I said in my previous message, I have not disputed your view of the tax that should be applied to a shipment from outside the EU.
Well, as I also said previously, it is slightly more than luck in and of itself. Yes, it could change at any time (and will) but, for now, it is what it is.
I totally agree. The buyer should always be aware of any taxes that might apply. I have said this myself in previous threads about Creation and others vendors in countries where UK import taxes rarely seem to be applied. They could be applied at any time.
However, one key point where we differ is that you think it is the vendor's responsibility to provide this information to the customer (not merely in general terms, as Creation and most other Internet vendors in fact do, but in precisely calculated terms). This is not the case. They have no such responsibility. There is no need for them to do it. It is fundamentally nothing to do with them.
This is not, in fact, a possibility at all for the reasons I explain in my previous message. To re-cap: Routing of packages can make no difference. It is only the country of origin that counts, not the route. See my previous message and below for more on this.
See below for the declared point of origin.
Good! The point of origin is in fact Singapore (or Japan, or other countries when they ship from partners in those countries). As I said to you above and in my previous message: Routing makes no difference.
They are not performing any 'magic' in this context. This is self-evident.
Furthermore, as I explained to you previously, even if Creation did ship to a location within the EU and re-ship from there, it would not help avoid EU taxes! See my previous message for why this is.
It is illegal but for many vendors from certain countries it is the overwhelmingly common practice. As a customer, you cannot avoid it. As I also said, though, this common practice of under- or mis-reporting does not seem in my experience to account on its own for the low proportion of packages that are taxed from certain countries. The only other likely cause, on the balance of probabilities, is resource allocation decisions by Border Force. The idea that packages are misrouted is simply a red herring (as it wouldn't actually help).
Oh, I'm sure it's true. But here's the thing: No one cares. No one cares because it is impossible for the recipient to police; the recipient has no control whatsoever over what is put on the customs declaration. The worst that can happen to any normal consumer who receives incorrectly declared goods is that he or she would have to pay the import taxes that would otherwise have been due. In reality, it's just not a problem.
I have never been charged VAT or carrier handling charges (I do not believe duty is payable on single watch imports) on watches from Singapore from Creation or others via ebay.
The detail on the outside of the package usually states it is a timing device with a value of USD 17 so it probably appears to fall under minimum thresholds.
When ordering a watch I always 'expect' to pay and therefore it is not a hit if it happens.
I have been charged VAT & handling on a Japanese import probably due to higher perceived value and therefore more scrutiny by customs
There's a couple of watches on their site I like the look of... roll on payday!
It goes via Germany as DHL is part of Deutsche Post nothing to do with VAT. Every item I have got from them it states that it is from SG. They avoid customs by stating that the item is a "gift" and that it is a measuring instrument of a value under $40 to stop customs charging tax.
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