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  1. #1
    Master danmiddle2's Avatar
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    Liquid filled Omega SMP...

    Having seen this thread a while ago:
    http://www.christopherwardforum.com/...pic.php?t=4960
    And having received some helpful instructions from Jeremy.

    I decided to oil fill a watch for myself... so today I successfully liquid filled my Omega SMP Quartz. I'll get some decent pics at the weekend, but here it is:



    (It looks much better in the flesh, but I need to dig out my DSLR).

    I will also be doing a Promaster Citizen quartz... and may even attempt a solar one, to see how that fares :-)

    Thoughts? Comments? Abuse?

  2. #2
    Cool - any additional friction on the movement, or does it stay within spec for time keeping, being an analogue watch?
    It's just a matter of time...

  3. #3
    That's a brave move on an expensive watch. Think I would have opted for proof of concept of a beater first. Good luck though !!

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manxdiver View Post
    That's a brave move on an expensive watch. Think I would have opted for proof of concept of a beater first. Good luck though !!
    An expensive(ish) watch,but a quartz replacement isn't a huge cost.

    If the movement became u/s the rest won't have suffered any damage.

    I think he'd have known all this ;).


  5. #5
    Master danmiddle2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omegamanic View Post
    Cool - any additional friction on the movement, or does it stay within spec for time keeping, being an analogue watch?
    No idea whatsoever - literally just done it about an hour ago. So far so good, but I will monitor and let you know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathmos
    I think I would like to see some more pictures....but I must say I admire your cojones for doing this to your watch!

    Any idea what this does to the depth rating?
    I will take some more shots of this and the Citizen as soon as I can. Cojones is about right, slightly nerve-wracking, but what's the worst that can happen? I drain the watch and replace the hands and dial?

    In terms of depth rating, I would imagine it is limited to the quartz components now... but in all honesty, 300M is deeper than I was ever going to go anyway. It does make the HE redundant though, but again.... not something I ever used.

    I just did it for the visual effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Manxdiver
    That's a brave move on an expensive watch. Think I would have opted for proof of concept of a beater first. Good luck though !!
    That was the idea with the Citizen... but I got impatient :-)

  6. #6
    Master danmiddle2's Avatar
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    The cost of the watch was not the biggest thing anyway as it was a cheap, slightly battered SMP I got from SC a while ago. Flourinert FC-770 is expensive stuff. I have ordered 5KG of it, and it was £500! Then the cost of the vacuum pump and degas chamber on top. I know 5KG may seem like a lot, but bear in mind you need to submerge the watch and all the bits AND have enough room to put it all back together under the fluid.

    I also bought enough to be future proof for battery changes :-)

    It was interesting - worth every penny IMO. If these work OK for the next little while, I will do the same for my black bond quartz SMP too.

  7. #7
    I too will be interested to see how this pans out. Also, it's good to see a genuinely interesting thread about watches for a change!

    I don't imagine the extra drag will affect the timing of a quartz movement, but you never know. I'll need to read through that ChrWard thread now to see if it affected the timing of a mechanical. I'd be worried about lubrication.

  8. #8
    Good effort.
    Andy

    Wanted - Damasko DC57

  9. #9
    Master Chris W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robt View Post
    I too will be interested to see how this pans out. Also, it's good to see a genuinely interesting thread about watches for a change!

    I don't imagine the extra drag will affect the timing of a quartz movement, but you never know. I'll need to read through that ChrWard thread now to see if it affected the timing of a mechanical. I'd be worried about lubrication.
    I don't think you can liquid fill a mechanical movement - too much drag on the rotor & other stuff.

  10. #10
    I think I would like to see some more pictures....but I must say I admire your cojones for doing this to your watch!

    Any idea what this does to the depth rating?

  11. #11
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    Extreme. I'm in admiration

  12. #12
    Balls of steel... glad the experiment worked.

    Im another one who'd love to know what effect that's had on the depth rating.

  13. #13
    Curious - how do you reassemble it submerged? Doesn't the oil prevent the caseback screwing down fully? The CW thread doesn't seem to address this either. And I assume your pro-master is not a front-loader?

  14. #14
    Master Chris W's Avatar
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    Intersting!
    Think I'd have tried it on a cheapy first though!
    How have you dealt with the thermal expansion of the liquid?

  15. #15
    Master Cirrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris W View Post
    Intersting!
    Think I'd have tried it on a cheapy first though!
    How have you dealt with the thermal expansion of the liquid?
    I am actually wondering if the HEV will serve in that capacity... am looking at drawings of them now ;)

  16. #16
    Master danmiddle2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Umbongo View Post
    Balls of steel... glad the experiment worked.

    Im another one who'd love to know what effect that's had on the depth rating.
    If there are any saturation divers on the forum, I'd be happy to loan my "200M" Citizen, which is now done. Ofcourse, I would recommend taking another timing means :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by marcus fenix View Post
    Curious - how do you reassemble it submerged? Doesn't the oil prevent the caseback screwing down fully? The CW thread doesn't seem to address this either. And I assume your pro-master is not a front-loader?
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris W View Post
    Intersting!
    Think I'd have tried it on a cheapy first though!
    How have you dealt with the thermal expansion of the liquid?
    To answer both your questions, Jeremy on the CW forum has or is in the process of patenting his mechanism for dealing with this. I signed an NDA so that he would share his secret with me. Needless to say, he has a fairy neat solution.

    QUOTE=Cirrus;3051589]I would love to see the face of the Omega techie if that ever lands on his desk for a service ;)

    Fair play though, I would have tried it out on something a lot cheaper than the SMP first.

    I wonder... the HEV valve - will it maintain its seal against the flouro liquid? I cant think of any reason why not, but then I don't know much about the construction of them.[/QUOTE]

    That would be funny, just opening it and liquid pouring out. So far the normal crown and HEV seem to be holding up well. I put the watch in the fridge for 20mins then sat it in the sun with the crowns open... no signs of leakage.

    Quote Originally Posted by robt View Post
    I too will be interested to see how this pans out. Also, it's good to see a genuinely interesting thread about watches for a change!

    I don't imagine the extra drag will affect the timing of a quartz movement, but you never know. I'll need to read through that ChrWard thread now to see if it affected the timing of a mechanical. I'd be worried about lubrication.
    So far, it's to the second of how I set my watches... (http://www.timeanddate.com/worldcloc...een.html?n=136) - but even it does have a slight affect, it will likely still be more accurate than most mechanical watches.

    Quote Originally Posted by WORKSIMON View Post
    What a fantastic project, I am so jealous of your cahhoonas, watch WISness in the extreme. Well done and me thinks this project will be taking off for you ;)
    Quote Originally Posted by andy tims View Post
    Good effort.
    Thank-you :-)


    And now a couple more phone pics.... slightly better, but still not great



  17. #17
    Master Cirrus's Avatar
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    I would love to see the face of the Omega techie if that ever lands on his desk for a service ;)

    Fair play though, I would have tried it out on something a lot cheaper than the SMP first.

    I wonder... the HEV valve - will it maintain its seal against the flouro liquid? I cant think of any reason why not, but then I don't know much about the construction of them.

  18. #18
    Wow, I really like that! I'm very impressed.

  19. #19
    Craftsman Richie_101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danmiddle2 View Post
    I will also be doing a Promaster Citizen quartz... and may even attempt a solar one, to see how that fares :-)

    Thoughts? Comments? Abuse?
    Nice to see someone else having a go at this, the Omega looks great. I did the same with a few watches about 3 years ago now, and I still have two of the watches, still filled, and they have run (almost) faultlessly.

    My first experiment was on this Zodiac, which worked out quite well.



    Once I'd proved that it worked, I then filled this Seiko Tuna.



    In in the interests of experimentation I 'punished' the case a bit with temperature extremes to see what would happen. Here's the result of a night in the freezer, the bubble shows how much the liquid has contracted.



    And here it is at 60 degrees C...



    The crystal gasket failed at 62 degrees, but I'd say that's enough, I suspect the movement wouldn't be too happy at that temp anyway. Also, the amount of liquid inside is much more without the movement so the pressure would be more.

    The Zodiac I use as a bit of desk ornament these days, but I've been wearing the Tuna regularly since I filled it. What I've found is that with the constant heating and cooling on and off the wrist, the caseback tends to loosen over time, and so needs tightening back up every 3 months or so. I also find that when it's been worn in the summer and gets particularly warm or I wear the watch in the shower, if you unscrew the crown, it shoots out to the time setting position immediately. Other than that, it's been fine with no issues to the timekeeping.

    I've changed the battery in both watches in that time, they lasted about 2 years. I suspect that is shorter than they would have lasted without the liquid as the movement has to deal with the extra friction of driving the hands through the liquid, but 2 years is still pretty good.

    The ideal scenario would be to fill a solar powered watch, and I tried it with this Citizen Orca.



    The end result was great, especially with the high domed crystal, but I found that the movement was only just strong enough to drive the hands through the fluid. It did work but it looked laboured, so after a few weeks I drained it again. I didn't much care for the style of the watch anyway - I can't help thinking of a clown every time I see one - but it worked, and charged just like a normal eco-drive.

    A note to the OP, if you do drain your watch, you shouldn't need to replace the dial and hands as the liquid should just evaporate off, leaving no detectable residue. As you've probably discovered, the evaporation rate of the liquid is fierce, so ensure that your container is well sealed as at £100/kg, you'd be pretty chiffed if your 5kg disappeared over night.

    I know some people question the point of filling watches. Theoretically, it increases the depth rating massively; as you can't compress a liquid, the only crushable component inside would be the air in the quartz crystal tube and you'd have to be pretty deep to do that. Another benefit, is that you'll never get any moisture inside.

    At the end of the day, there is no real practical purpose, it just looks cool. In fact, when I drained the fluid out of my Tuna to change the battery, it just look odd, and I couldn't wait to get it refilled.

    Edit: To answer the question above about expansion, I too tried the closed cell foam and also a single bubble from some bubble wrap - the bubble eventually popped leaving me with an air bubble. The closed cell foam did work, but didn't seem to compress that much and the stem still shot out of the tuna when hot. I worked out that the liquid would expand 12%, so you'd need quite a lot of foam to compensate for that.

    I've got other ideas for handling the expansion to try, but I don't have enough time to mess about with these things these days. Consequently, when I replaced the battery in the Seiko last year, I just opted to leave a small air bubble in the watch - it won't please the purists, but it seems to have stopped the caseback from unscrewing, and people that have seen it are pretty fascinated that I have a watch with a bubble in it.




    Rich.
    Last edited by Richie_101; 24th February 2014 at 21:03.

  20. #20
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    I am extremely impressed. I am now thinking of which quartz watch I can buy yo do this to!

  21. #21
    Craftsman jayleb's Avatar
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    More photos please!

  22. #22
    Master danmiddle2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richie_101 View Post
    Nice to see someone else having a go at this, the Omega looks great. I did the same with a few watches about 3 years ago now, and I still have two of the watches, still filled, and they have run (almost) faultlessly.

    My first experiment was on this Zodiac, which worked out quite well.



    Once I'd proved that it worked, I then filled this Seiko Tuna.



    In in the interests of experimentation I 'punished' the case a bit with temperature extremes to see what would happen. Here's the result of a night in the freezer, the bubble shows how much the liquid has contracted.



    And here it is at 60 degrees C...



    The crystal gasket failed at 62 degrees, but I'd say that's enough, I suspect the movement wouldn't be too happy at that temp anyway. Also, the amount of liquid inside is much more without the movement so the pressure would be more.

    The Zodiac I use as a bit of desk ornament these days, but I've been wearing the Tuna regularly since I filled it. What I've found is that with the constant heating and cooling on and off the wrist, the caseback tends to loosen over time, and so needs tightening back up every 3 months or so. I also find that when it's been worn in the summer and gets particularly warm or I wear the watch in the shower, if you unscrew the crown, it shoots out to the time setting position immediately. Other than that, it's been fine with no issues to the timekeeping.

    I've changed the battery in both watches in that time, they lasted about 2 years. I suspect that is shorter than they would have lasted without the liquid as the movement has to deal with the extra friction of driving the hands through the liquid, but 2 years is still pretty good.

    The ideal scenario would be to fill a solar powered watch, and I tried it with this Citizen Orca.



    The end result was great, especially with the high domed crystal, but I found that the movement was only just strong enough to drive the hands through the fluid. It did work but it looked laboured, so after a few weeks I drained it again. I didn't much care for the style of the watch anyway - I can't help thinking of a clown every time I see one - but it worked, and charged just like a normal eco-drive.

    A note to the OP, if you do drain your watch, you shouldn't need to replace the dial and hands as the liquid should just evaporate off, leaving no detectable residue. As you've probably discovered, the evaporation rate of the liquid is fierce, so ensure that your container is well sealed as at £100/kg, you'd be pretty chiffed if your 5kg disappeared over night.

    I know some people question the point of filling watches. Theoretically, it increases the depth rating massively; as you can't compress a liquid, the only crushable component inside would be the air in the quartz crystal tube and you'd have to be pretty deep to do that. Another benefit, is that you'll never get any moisture inside.

    At the end of the day, there is no real practical purpose, it just looks cool. In fact, when I drained the fluid out of my Tuna to change the battery, it just look odd, and I couldn't wait to get it refilled.

    Edit: To answer the question above about expansion, I too tried the closed cell foam and also a single bubble from some bubble wrap - the bubble eventually popped leaving me with an air bubble. The closed cell foam did work, but didn't seem to compress that much and the stem still shot out of the tuna when hot. I worked out that the liquid would expand 12%, so you'd need quite a lot of foam to compensate for that.

    I've got other ideas for handling the expansion to try, but I don't have enough time to mess about with these things these days. Consequently, when I replaced the battery in the Seiko last year, I just opted to leave a small air bubble in the watch - it won't please the purists, but it seems to have stopped the caseback from unscrewing, and people that have seen it are pretty fascinated that I have a watch with a bubble in it.




    Rich.

    That's great, thanks Rich - I love the oil filled Tuna - was thinking of doing one of those at some point :-)

    So you didn't need to add anything to compensate for thermal expansion?

  23. #23
    Craftsman Richie_101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danmiddle2 View Post
    That's great, thanks Rich - I love the oil filled Tuna - was thinking of doing one of those at some point :-)

    So you didn't need to add anything to compensate for thermal expansion?
    Yes, I've got closed cell foam in both watches. I don't wear the Zodiac so that is unaffected by temp changes anyway, but there isn't much room left in a Tuna case for foam and it couldn't handle the expansion the first time around, so I left a small bubble in it as well this time. I'm not worried at all about the bubble and if it stops the caseback from unscrewing then I'll be happy.

    Just a word of warning to anyone fancying a go at this; it's not a cheap caper. As Dan said the fluid is £100/kg and you'll need at least a couple of kilos to get started, most of which will evaporate off, plus you'll need a vacuum chamber to pull all the air out of the case before sealing it. Without the chamber I'd say it's impossible to make to bubble free, and if you were hoping to just pour some liquid in and close the case, 30% of it would have evaporated off before you got it screwed down.

    You might have more luck with the olive/gear oil as that doesn't evaporate, but I don't know if a regular quartz would have the power to drive the hands so you'd be limited to LCD's.

    Fun and games eh!

    Rich.

  24. #24
    Wow what a great thread - love this sort of stuff. It is a pity about the evaporation rate of the fluid as I remember seeing an old mainboard immersed in it and overclocked something stupid - they had ordered the fluid through work however.

  25. #25
    Craftsman Loki's Avatar
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    Had a quick scan through this thread but am still wondering what is the purpose for liquid filling a watch?

  26. #26
    Master imb1's Avatar
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    I saw the original thread on the CWL Forum a while back and it looked impressive. Nice to see the effect on these other brands. It does give them a funky look.

  27. #27
    Very interesting thread. I never realised that the oil is so volatile, and I guess this means oil filled watches need to be protected from internal pressure.

  28. #28
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    Very impressive little project you have there. I own a Bell & Ross Hydromax which is oil filled and I think they use a specially high torque movement to counter act the drag but, like you suggest, even if yours is affected it will likely remain more accurate than your mechanical pieces.

    Well done.

  29. #29
    Master danmiddle2's Avatar
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    I promised progress updates on this little project and then promptly forgot... but a quick update now:

    ~3.5 years on and both Omega SMP's (I did a black faced one, too) are working fine. They have not needed a battery change, have not leaked, the Fluorinert has not damaged or discoloured anything and both are keeping as good time as any other Quartz I own.

    I managed to get 2x spare 1538 movements just in case.

    A salesman in an Omega boutique in London was absolutely entranced by the black one, when I popped in for a browse and happened to be wearing it a few months back.

    Two of the other liquid filled watches I did have failed, however... but I am unsure if the cause was related. In both cases (a Victorinox and a Citizen), they worked well for 2+ years, then the battery went flat (they had indications before stopping) and a replacement battery has failed to revive them.

  30. #30
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    Eyeing up my watch case. Who's heading for the oily treatment.

  31. #31
    Hmm - looks like a fun endeavour but I don't really see the point. I quite fancy a UX as the effect on the dial looks very cool but I think I'd rather have a watch that was designed to be fluid- filled than mess about myself. I do wonder why more watches aren't made this way as it seems to make the whole 'massive case' eg the DSSD redundant - in fact now that liquid filled quartz is available what is the point in the DSSD (and other air filled auto divers) beyond knowing it's an auto and not Quartz? I would have thought the properties of an oil filled watch (easily viewed dial and as slim as you like) massively outweigh a big fat auto that turns into a mirror when not viewed face on?

  32. #32
    Craftsman Richie_101's Avatar
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    As I mentioned in my post above, the watches that I filled have been running for 3 years straight with no effect on them whatsoever. When I changed the batteries last year the dials/hands/gaskets and movements were all unaffected, the lume didn't fall out and it still glows.

    I'm sure many of us have a quartz watch that's been running constantly without servicing since the early 80's. It's most likely that the oil that ETA applied is now either completely dry, or has become contaminated to the point of being little more than a grinding paste. So I wonder if washing the oil off and running lubricated metal on metal will cause any wear at all? Time will tell I guess (provided I can be bothered to keep changing the batteries and refillling every 2 years!)

    The watch industry is littered with solutions to non-existent problems - at the end of the day, there is very limited practical use for this, it's just a bit of fun.

    Rich.

  33. #33
    Master danmiddle2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richie_101 View Post
    ... at the end of the day, there is very limited practical use for this, it's just a bit of fun.
    +1

  34. #34
    Craftsman dom_'s Avatar
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    Has anyone considered using fluorinert?
    It doesn't conduct electricity and is designed for cooling electronics by submersing them in it. It is really stable, doesn't degrade or change much with normal temperature levels.

    Bit pricey though.

  35. #35
    Master sweets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dom_ View Post
    Has anyone considered using fluorinert?
    It doesn't conduct electricity and is designed for cooling electronics by submersing them in it. It is really stable, doesn't degrade or change much with normal temperature levels.

    Bit pricey though.
    Fluorinert is the proper thing to use, and peole have, yes. But it evaporates and is hellish expensive, so alternatives (such as EVOO etc) are being sought.

  36. #36
    Master london lad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dom_ View Post
    Has anyone considered using fluorinert?
    It doesn't conduct electricity and is designed for cooling electronics by submersing them in it. It is really stable, doesn't degrade or change much with normal temperature levels.

    Bit pricey though.
    I was just going to post about the electrical resistance of oils and its effect on the electronics

  37. #37
    Master danmiddle2's Avatar
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    And here they are, with a non oil filled 2254 at the end for comparison

  38. #38
    Master markosgr28's Avatar
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    Well done mate.

  39. #39
    Grand Master
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    Seconded. That's a brilliant experiment and I'm glad it's going strong!

  40. #40
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    Did Seadog ever take one sat diving then?


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  41. #41
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    Ah, I forgot about this thread now I want buy a Quartz SM and copy you. They look awesome.
    I wonder if the other failures are due to movements of less quality? It must accelerate wear on components to 'push' the hands through the oil so maybe they've just had a few years worth of wear in a shorter time.

  42. #42
    Master danmiddle2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave O'Sullivan View Post
    Ah, I forgot about this thread
    me too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave O'Sullivan View Post
    now I want buy a Quartz SM and copy you. They look awesome.
    I wonder if the other failures are due to movements of less quality? It must accelerate wear on components to 'push' the hands through the oil so maybe they've just had a few years worth of wear in a shorter time.
    Possibly... I wonder whether letting them run completely flat causes additional mechanical issues.

    I do want to find a cheap 2264 (if there is such a thing anymore) and do that too, just to round out the set. But I have just ordered a Seiko Padi Solar to see if that will work... no reason why it shouldn't, I guess.

    Given the success of the SMP's, I am on the look out for other watches which use the ETA 255.461 movement, as that is (as I understand it) basically the same as the one in the Omega.

  43. #43
    Master danmiddle2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobbyf View Post
    Did Seadog ever take one sat diving then?


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    He offered, but I didn't get around to sending him one. I am easily distracted....

  44. #44
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    Damn it, why does this place want me to spend money on things. That looks amazing!

    I’ve only 2 quartz in my collection, a tuna and a scurfa diver one. Not brave enough for the tuna, but would love to see how the scurfa worked.

    That said, I can’t justify the outlay of the equipment for vacuum and the cost of the liquid, so will remain one of the ‘maybe one day’ dreams.

    Visually the look is just amazing, I love it!


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  45. #45
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    You’re a brave man! V cool. You must be both skilled and idle in equal parts!


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