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Thread: PAM - condensation

  1. #1
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    PAM - condensation

    Looking for a bit of advice for a friend. He's got Panerai (sorry don't know which model exactly...) and its only been serviced couple of months ago by AD in Edinburgh (where he got the watch in the first place). Watch is couple of years old.

    According to him (have no reason to disbelief) he left watch in the bathroom whilst taking a shower (its on a leather so he didn't shower with it obviously).
    After the shower he noticed a bit of condensation under the glass. Now he didn't act immediately by drying it out with rice etc but took it to the AD where it was serviced and they looked at it and after keeping it for a while bottom line is that watch has to be sent to italy for a repair, new dial etc at a cost of just shy of £600...
    Now in my view they're having a laugh since I wouldn't expect watch to steam up even if it was worn in the shower let alone sitting in the bathroom during taking shower.... Obviously they haven't properly sealed it in my view after most recent service.
    To make matters worse they also tell him that apart from repair they then need to service the watch again at cost of £250 or so...

    what do you suggest he should do?

    He's willing to just go ahead with it but I told him that he should argue the case with the dealer...

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by mac83 View Post
    Looking for a bit of advice for a friend. He's got Panerai (sorry don't know which model exactly...) and its only been serviced couple of months ago by AD in Edinburgh (where he got the watch in the first place). Watch is couple of years old.

    According to him (have no reason to disbelief) he left watch in the bathroom whilst taking a shower (its on a leather so he didn't shower with it obviously).
    After the shower he noticed a bit of condensation under the glass. Now he didn't act immediately by drying it out with rice etc but took it to the AD where it was serviced and they looked at it and after keeping it for a while bottom line is that watch has to be sent to italy for a repair, new dial etc at a cost of just shy of £600...
    Now in my view they're having a laugh since I wouldn't expect watch to steam up even if it was worn in the shower let alone sitting in the bathroom during taking shower.... Obviously they haven't properly sealed it in my view after most recent service.
    To make matters worse they also tell him that apart from repair they then need to service the watch again at cost of £250 or so...

    what do you suggest he should do?

    He's willing to just go ahead with it but I told him that he should argue the case with the dealer...
    I had the same issue - mine went to Blowers and the final bill was less than £200. Give them a try?

  3. #3
    Master thegoat's Avatar
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    If it's been "serviced" a couple of months ago and your mate had dived to 300 metres and then the watch had misted up , Id still be upset and demanding a solution.
    Sounds like the dealer is trying it on . Poor show IMO

  4. #4
    Grand Master Chinnock's Avatar
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    Surely the service gives 12 months warranty. Tell your mate to fight his corner and demand they fix their mistake in not providing a satisfactory service.
    “Don’t look back, you’re not heading that way.”

  5. #5
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    Sorry to hear this, there must be more accounts of poor service from Panerai than any other brand in their price bracket.

    I take it the shop in question is H & I, George Street, I would complain to the manager and explain that that watch has recently been serviced an not would you would expect.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by mac83 View Post
    Looking for a bit of advice for a friend. He's got Panerai (sorry don't know which model exactly...) and its only been serviced couple of months ago by AD in Edinburgh (where he got the watch in the first place). Watch is couple of years old.

    According to him (have no reason to disbelief) he left watch in the bathroom whilst taking a shower (its on a leather so he didn't shower with it obviously).
    After the shower he noticed a bit of condensation under the glass. Now he didn't act immediately by drying it out with rice etc but took it to the AD where it was serviced and they looked at it and after keeping it for a while bottom line is that watch has to be sent to italy for a repair, new dial etc at a cost of just shy of £600...
    They screwed up the service. Subsequent repair should be free. If they won't budge, tell you mate to sue them until their eyeballs pop out. Citizen's Advice Bureau, Small Claims Court, everything - and name and shame them publicly.
    ...but what do I know; I don't even like watches!

  7. #7
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    Thanks for the responses, my suspicion was that this isnt right and watch cannot be water resistant but not steam resistant... I will speak to my friend again and see if he's willing to fight it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Captainhowdy View Post

    I take it the shop in question is H & I, George Street, I would complain to the manager and explain that that watch has recently been serviced an not would you would expect.
    Thats the one...

  8. #8
    Grand Master SimonK's Avatar
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    Why does it have to be sent to Italy? I thought Panerai moved to Switzerland 15 years ago?

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by mac83 View Post
    Looking for a bit of advice for a friend...
    Oh dear!! Wanting to charge him huge amounts with no real idea whether there is actually a problem here.

    Check out this thread

    http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...-making-a-brew.


    Short term condensation is normal for watches on sudden changes in temperature. Depends on the normal humidity inside the watch on how much there will be. Water vapour always permeates through a watches gaskets it can't be prevented.

    It may be of course that something has caused the gaskets to fail and actual liquid water is getting in.

    However, before he commits to anything he should take it to be pressure tested (which is cheap) and will tell him whether this is just the normal reaction or whether it has lost its WR.




    Mitch

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch View Post
    http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...-making-a-brew.

    Water vapour always permeates through a watches gaskets it can't be prevented.

    Mitch
    Absolute rubbish.

    If a watch is sealed correctly it's air tight. If it'll keep air out, it'll keep water vapour out.

    Don`t know where these urban myths come from!

    As for condensation theory, if a watch is sealed in conditions of 100% humidity on a warm day, theoretically this could happen..........but I`ve never seen it. Highly unlikely in my opinion.

    to imply that this behaviour is normal is misleading and ill-informed. The watch the OP refers to has a sealing problem, I think that's fairly obvious.

    Paul
    Last edited by walkerwek1958; 20th January 2014 at 01:08.

  11. #11
    Master trisdg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SimonK View Post
    Why does it have to be sent to Italy? I thought Panerai moved to Switzerland 15 years ago?
    That's exactly what I was thinking.

  12. #12
    Here we go again!

    I find it hysterical that the forum experts can't reach agreement on even the basic laws of thermodynamics.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    Absolute rubbish.

    If a watch is sealed correctly it's air tight. If it'll keep air out, it'll keep water vapour out.

    Don`t know where these urban myths come from!

    As for the water vapour theory, if a watch is sealed in an atmosphere that's 100 saturated, then cooled down, theoretically this could happen..........but I`ve never seen it. Highly unlikely in my opinion.

    Paul

    Paul
    +1 If it's sealed correctly water vapour (water) isn't going to get in

  14. #14
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    okay so a bit of update since I misunderstood him earlier - its been serviced 2 years ago and aparently service only is guaranteed for 1 year....

    does he have any chance of fighting it then? Even after 2 years you wouldn't really expect seals to fail and as he's treating the watch quite gently and doesn't take it out very often I suspect it wasn't resealed properly in the first place....

  15. #15
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    There seems to be a degree of confusion here generated by the dealer mostly?

    I would have it sent off and checked, initially i'd have thought at the RIS facility in London. If they deem it necessary for a factory return then they'll obviously say so and why.

    Seals failure within two years is a bit rough to take, so yes i'd be firmly reminding them of the fairly recent service and pressing them on that point.

  16. #16
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    Highly unlikely that the seals have deteriorated over this time span. If there was an initial sealing problem after service, it would've shown up before now (ie first time the watch got wet).

    Was the crown closed properly? That's a question I would be asking myself if it was my watch!

    When the watch was returned for inspection/service it should've been checked for water resistance and the results fed back to the owner.

    Paul

  17. #17
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    All in all I mostly read a red flag about buying anything with an in-house movement in effect making one dependant on the authorised system.
    (Yes I read that the watch it the OT may/may not be in-house; my observation is about the authorised system)

    An acquaintance had his base pam routine serviced; three weeks and 300 Euros.
    My homage has the same movement with extra micro adjuster which I had ´repaired´ (loose friction wheel) and serviced by a very reputable independant; two weeks, 40 Euros and returned with warm assurance of personal warranty.

    Imo there is a whole lot more wrong with the dependancy than with a ´humble´ outsourced movement.
    Last edited by Huertecilla; 20th January 2014 at 10:44.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huertecilla View Post
    All in all I mostly read a red flag about buying anything with an in-house movement in effect making one dependant on the authorised system.
    (Yes I read that the watch it the OT may/may not be in-house; my observation is about the authorised system)

    An acquaintance had his base pam routine serviced; three weeks and 300 Euros.
    My homage has the same movement with extra micro adjuster which I had ´repaired´ (loose friction wheel) and serviced by a very reputable independant; two weeks, 40 Euros and returned with warm assurance of personal warranty.

    Imo there is a whole lot more wrong with the dependancy than with a ´humble´ outsourced movement.
    I think this is something that many don't take into consideration, it doesn't help when the manufacturers restrict the spares supply as they do.
    Its going to hurt spending the best part of a grand on this!

    In the OPs case, I would be surprised if the dial is damaged by a little condensation on the crystal unless it was really really wet in there, I recon he would get away with a service and reseal at an independent if he has no joy getting them to do the work for free....
    Cheers..
    Jase

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    Absolute rubbish.

    If a watch is sealed correctly it's air tight. If it'll keep air out, it'll keep water vapour out.

    Don`t know where these urban myths come from!

    As for condensation theory, if a watch is sealed in conditions of 100% humidity on a warm day, theoretically this could happen..........but I`ve never seen it. Highly unlikely in my opinion.

    to imply that this behaviour is normal is misleading and ill-informed. The watch the OP refers to has a sealing problem, I think that's fairly obvious.

    Paul
    Look Paul I don't want to get into an argument with you about this because there is no argument.

    You are wrong pure and simple.

    Read the thread that I linked to.

    Polymer watch gaskets are permeable to water vapour at rates running up to hundreds times more than other atmospheric gases including Helium. You really shouldn't respond in such a positive fashion when you clearly have no idea what you are talking about and the physics involved.

    Watches will equalise to the ambient humidity due to Vapour Pressure and sudden changes of temperature will cause the water vapour to condense out into its liquid form. Take your nice WR diver and rest an ice cube on it for a minute or so and check what has happened to the inside of the crystal.

    He should get this watch pressure tested before committing to huge expense.




    Mitch

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by nibby View Post
    +1 If it's sealed correctly water vapour (water) isn't going to get in

    Not so!

    Read the above and my responses on this thread.


    http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...-making-a-brew

    Read about the Sinn system that they use to mitigate the problem (not solve it as that can't be done with polymer based gaskets).



    http://www.sinn.de/en/Ar-Dehumidifying_Technology.htm






    Mitch

  21. #21
    I've never had condensation appear in a Divers watch or even the G shock I used to take in and out of the sauna, plunge pool etc. I've swum with Rolex, Panerai and Omega on, showered with them and even freshened them up every now and again with a little baby soap, warm water and a soft toothbrush. Never had a leak, a bit of misting - nothing. I do have my 'proper' watches serviced religiously every 5 years regardless, and have the right tools and silicone grease to have been able to replace g shock batteries myself and never had a single issue in 30 years. Surely a Dive watch would travel from the warmth inside of the dive boat on a warm wrist into the freezing North Sea and not mist up? - and misting up on a shelf in the bathroom? - clearly the seals must be compromised and the argument along the lines of 'vapour permeating' might apply if you take a steam cleaner to your watch and give it a damn good blast (in fact I might try this with my old indestructible g shock dw6900) but in real life it just wouldn't be acceptable to me. This I like saying 'boats are waterproof and able to float but if you run into a fog bank the ship will sink like a stone - which is fine according to the laws if physics'. What a load of old tosh!

  22. #22
    Oh, and I've boiled rice and pasta, fried steaks, got spatters of cooking oil on watches, got shampoo all over them when washing the kids hair, sailed on boats where the inside is running with condensation when you wake up, and guess what? My 300m rated divers watch never misted up.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by RobDad View Post
    I've never had condensation appear in a Divers watch or even the G shock - which is fine according to the laws if physics'. What a load of old tosh!

    The condensation effect is only transient and vanishes within a minute so it is not likely you will see it.

    I have just done the ice cube trick on a 200m WR G shock and a Heuer diver and guess what, the inside of the crystal misted up!

    Why don't you Google polymers and water vapour permeation and read about the rates compared to other gases.

    Do you think Sinn are lying about the reasons for their de-humidifying system?




    Mitch
    Last edited by Mitch; 20th January 2014 at 11:57.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonM View Post
    I think this is something that many don't take into consideration, it doesn't help when the manufacturers restrict the spares supply as they do.
    Its going to hurt spending the best part of a grand on this!
    See my ´topic´ on independants.
    If I would be so inclined it could really ruffle my feathers that watch fora in general have become social marketing tools too. If not directly than indirectly by buyers repeating the manufacturers guff that lured thém into dependancy. The exceptions are becoming as scarce as independant watchmaker´s shops.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch View Post
    Do you think Sinn are lying about the reasons for their de-humidifying system?




    Mitch
    I for one accept the statemeny as such but would nevertheless like to learn a bit more about it before adopting the benefits of it. Ditto other possible measures by manufacturers to address the issue.
    Could you open a seperate thread about it?

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch View Post
    Why don't you Google polymers and water vapour permeation and read about the rates compared to other gases.

    Mitch
    As a former industrial chemist, I have a decent background knowledge about most chemically-related issues, although my memory is fading as the years go by. However, after a quick look to refresh my memory, I`m even further convinced that water vapour permeation through rubber seals in a watch isn`t going to happen. Certain silicone rubbers can be water permeable, but the common synthetic rubbers used to make O-rings (nitrile and butyl rubbers, possibly viton) will not suffer from this phenomenon under normal conditions of use. Polymers can absorb water to a small extent, but that's not the same as allowing water to pass through in a semi-permeable manner.

    As for the 'condensation' trick, every time the crown is opened the air inside the watch potentially exchanges with it's ambient surroundings. If a watch is opened in very hot humid conditions (ie Goa in April) then sealed up, it'll get full of moist air. On cooling, precipitation of water droplets (condensation) could potentially occur. However, the actual volume of water that could be precipitated is tiny; I guess I could calculate it but life's too short. It'll probably be enough to cause condensation on the glass if that's cooled relative to the rest of the watch.

    All this is somewhat academic. Suffice to say, if you see condensation inside your watch you can be 99.9% certain it has found it's way in through either a defective seal, or you haven`t closed the crown properly. Forget the bloody science that's getting bandied around, that's the reality and it's not what you want to see......because it means you have a problem. If this does happen, my advice is to pull the crown out and leave the watch somewhere warm. Should you keep it running?......could argue both ways on this but on balance, I would. Ideally, take the back off and cover the watch with a glass to prevent dust ingress. The aim is to evaporate the water away. I've had this happen on a couple of my old watches and I`ve got away with it, but the problem does need addressing. Usual culprit is the crown seal on an old watch, or absence of a gasket in the caseback.

    Finally, the 'water in my watch' syndrome seems disproportionally worse when folks go on holiday...2 reasons for this, one of which no-one ever admits to.

    Paul

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    As a former industrial chemist, I have a decent background knowledge about most chemically-related issues, although my memory is fading as the years go by. However, after a quick look to refresh my memory, I`m even further convinced that water vapour permeation through rubber seals in a watch isn`t going to happen. Certain silicone rubbers can be water permeable, but the common synthetic rubbers used to make O-rings (nitrile and butyl rubbers, possibly viton) will not suffer from this phenomenon under normal conditions of use. Polymers can absorb water to a small extent, but that's not the same as allowing water to pass through in a semi-permeable manner.

    Paul
    Paul I repeat again there is no argument about whether polymers are permeable to water vapour they are and at rates of transmission hundreds and even thousands of times the rate of other gases, it is a fact and can be confirmed by any Google search.

    Here is a table of the permeation rates of various polymers compared to Oxygen.


    http://www.faybutler.com/pdf_files/H...AffectGas3.pdf


    Viton is a good polymer for gaskets and has a lower permeation rate than a lot of other polymers it has a rate of about a quarter that of Neoprane it is still significant though.


    Have you read the link to the Sinn system for mitigating the problem. Do you think they are just making it up?

    The problem is not a major one, like it would be for actual liquid water transmission but polymer gaskets will not allow liquid water to pass at normal pressures.

    This is trying to help someone who noticed condensation on the inside of the crystal after a sudden change of temperature. This is normal behaviour for a fully sealed and WR watch as Sinn themselves confirm.

    It may be that indeed the seals have failed but a pressure test will tell him that. If it passes the pressure test it will save him many hundreds of pounds to deal with a problem that doesn't exist.

    I can recreate his condensation 'problem' on my watches any time I want and I know the seals are just fine.





    Mitch

  28. #28
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    I tried the ice cube test on a Breitling Colt once, during the very hot, humid summer of 2006. Not even a smidge of condensation inside. YMMV of course, but the idea that sultry air of high humidity can permeate the screwed down caseback and crown, plus modern gaskets, of a modern sports watch only applies if something is wrong with it.

  29. #29
    Just thinking off the top of my head. When you use an old-fashioned WR tester i.e. the ones where you are increase the air pressure, then dip in in water and release the pressure, aren't you effectively testing the air tightness of the watch rather than the water tightness? If so watch cases are pretty air-tight, and doesn't this means that although theoretically molecules can permeate through all the seals (and even "solid" components) it must only happen extremely slowly? Also the fact that dive watches have a helium escape value, this points to the fact that only the very smallest molecules (or atoms like He) are able to enter the case in any significant number? Therefore even diatomic oxygen and nitrogen are too large to get through case seals in any significant number (otherwise it would be an "air-release value"?), so is it not feasible that a larger molecule like water is unlikely to permeate the case in large enough quantities to cause misting?

    (I know there might be materials that are preferentially permeable to water, but I suspect watch manufacturers have the good sense not to use these in water resistance watches!)

    Therefore I think one of two scenarios most likely applies to the OP's friend
    a) the case is watertight, but was sealed in extremely humid conditions, or one of the components might have been wet
    b) the case wasn't sealed correctly and water got in

    Either way, the party that serviced the watch should sort it out FOC.

  30. #30
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    Fair points, but after 2 years I doubt he'll get anywhere. Even if the watch is tested and found to be leaking I doubt whether the makers would extend 'benefit of the doubt' on a goodwill basis. It's a shame, because it won`t cost them much to rectify this.

    Pressurising in air should be a more demanding test than water (small molecules, vastly lower viscosity etc). I recall having great fun trying to get pressure reactors to seal in my lab days!

    I`m going to try to simulate the 'condensation' effect caused by sealing the watch on a humid day......I`ve never seen it but I accept it's possible. In this case, I think it's an unlikely explanation because the temperature inside the shower room wouldn`t be low enough to cause this.

    I`m still surprised that the watch could suffer seal problems after 2 years, provided it was OK after service, considering that it wasn`t exposed to pressure. If I was betting, my money would have to be on the crown being inadequately closed..........when you've eliminated everything else, whatever you're left with has to be the answer ( Sherlock Holmes principle). Whatever happened, it's unfortunate.

    Paul

  31. #31
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    Was the crown guard locking lever open ?, even if it was unlocked the crown is still sealed by the O-rings ( have these been replaced at service ?) so still in theory water resistant, but the crown-guard is an integral part of the watches overall water resistance, it is the action of locking the crown down and compressing the O-rings that ensures it's full water resistance.

  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by robcat View Post
    Also the fact that dive watches have a helium escape value, this points to the fact that only the very smallest molecules (or atoms like He) are able to enter the case in any significant number? Therefore even diatomic oxygen and nitrogen are too large to get through case seals in any significant number (otherwise it would be an "air-release value"?), so is it not feasible that a larger molecule like water is unlikely to permeate the case in large enough quantities to cause misting?
    Polymers are far more permeable to water vapour than to Helium. Fact, look it up.

    The molecule is slightly larger but it is the shape of the molecule that allows it to permeate so readily.




    Mitch

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch View Post
    Polymers are far more permeable to water vapour than to Helium. Fact, look it up.

    The molecule is slightly larger but it is the shape of the molecule that allows it to permeate so readily.




    Mitch
    Seriously can you take your argument to a thread that already exists rather than continue in mine?

    To everyone contributing, big thanks, I relayed your comments and he is going to see if AD can be reasoned with.

  34. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by mac83 View Post
    Seriously can you take your argument to a thread that already exists rather than continue in mine?

    To everyone contributing, big thanks, I relayed your comments and he is going to see if AD can be reasoned with.
    Are you serious?

    You come on here asking for help and describe a problem which is actually normal behaviour for a fully sealed and WR watch.

    Even if you cannot be bothered to confirm what I say, have you bothered to look up the link I gave you to Sinn, a major watch manufacturer, which describes the problem exactly as I stated and confirms this can happen to any watch? Who do you prefer to believe an internet blogger or a major watch manufacturer?

    http://www.sinn.de/en/Ar-Dehumidifying_Technology.htm

    Why dont' you get the watch pressure tested (a cheap procedure) and confirm or otherwise its current WR?




    Mitch

  35. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch View Post
    Polymers are far more permeable to water vapour than to Helium. Fact, look it up.

    The molecule is slightly larger but it is the shape of the molecule that allows it to permeate so readily.




    Mitch
    It's interesting that something can be significantly more water permeable than gas permeable. You learn something every day!

    Plus, the Sinn page certainly seems to confirm that it is possible for enough water to get into the case for them to feel the need to address the issue.

    Is it enough to cause a significant amount of visible condensation on the inside of the crystal, I don't know? Why don't other manufacturers take steps to prevent it?

    Is it still more likely that it's a broken seal?

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch View Post
    Are you serious?

    You come on here asking for help and describe a problem which is actually normal behaviour for a fully sealed and WR watch.

    Even if you cannot be bothered to confirm what I say, have you bothered to look up the link I gave you to Sinn, a major watch manufacturer, which describes the problem exactly as I stated and confirms this can happen to any watch? Who do you prefer to believe an internet blogger or a major watch manufacturer?

    http://www.sinn.de/en/Ar-Dehumidifying_Technology.htm

    Why dont' you get the watch pressure tested (a cheap procedure) and confirm or otherwise its current WR?




    Mitch
    I am serious, I appreciate your input with regards to my question but I dont like thread spoiling and dont want you guys to carry on with your discussion from the other thread which I followed with interest anyway.

  37. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by robcat View Post
    It's interesting that something can be significantly more water permeable than gas permeable. You learn something every day!

    Plus, the Sinn page certainly seems to confirm that it is possible for enough water to get into the case for them to feel the need to address the issue.

    Is it enough to cause a significant amount of visible condensation on the inside of the crystal, I don't know? Why don't other manufacturers take steps to prevent it?

    Is it still more likely that it's a broken seal?
    Polymers are not permeable to liquid water, just water molecules in their gaseous state. Water vapour is lighter than air with a smaller molecule than most components.

    Personally I don't think the amount of water vapour present in the watch can do much damage at all except over very long periods. Perhaps if you lived in a constant high humidity environment and was constantly having sudden changes in temperatures there might be a problem. I think Sinn overstate it.

    Mind you I can recreate the problem with an ice cube, I just did it again with a G shock and a Heuer diver. Both showed misting of the crystal, the G shock more than the Heuer, though that may be due to the different thermal properties of mineral glass and sapphire.

    It could easily be a broken seal of course, in which case it is letting liquid water in and that is a big problem for a watch, a cheap pressure test would decide the issue.





    Mitch

  38. #38
    I've read various comments over the years about putting ice on the crystal of your watch to effectively allow you to see the moisture that is present in the air inside the watch itself. Never done it as it seems a bit of a daft exercise - especially as that will never happen in a real life situation, but science suggests it is completely logical. However, having enough condensation appear in a bathroom whilst running a shower to actually damage the dial rather suggests a leaky watch. Polymers and permeable membranes etc blah blah blah, - cutting to the chase a seal is shot which shouldn't be the case in a modern watch serviced within the last couple of years. I don't have it to hand but when I had my sub serviced last year Rolex provided a little booklet explaining what is done in a standard service an it does talk about the watch being seale after service in a 'dry air environment' to avoid condensation forming in use. Maybe not as technically clever as the Sinn capsule technology but I suspect the capsule provides a solution to a problem which in practical daily watch wear isn't really an issue - or every water resistant watch would have one?

  39. #39
    I just did the ice cube test on two watches. Both divers. Both about a year old. I'd be amazed to find seals had gone in both.

    Both showed some misting of the crystal where the ice cube had been.

    Ill cross post this in the other thread.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch View Post
    Polymers are not permeable to liquid water, just water molecules in their gaseous state. Water vapour is lighter than air with a smaller molecule than most components.

    Personally I don't think the amount of water vapour present in the watch can do much damage at all except over very long periods. Perhaps if you lived in a constant high humidity environment and was constantly having sudden changes in temperatures there might be a problem. I think Sinn overstate it.

    Mind you I can recreate the problem with an ice cube, I just did it again with a G shock and a Heuer diver. Both showed misting of the crystal, the G shock more than the Heuer, though that may be due to the different thermal properties of mineral glass and sapphire.

    It could easily be a broken seal of course, in which case it is letting liquid water in and that is a big problem for a watch, a cheap pressure test would decide the issue.

    Mitch
    I`m curious: do you have a scientific background? You're speaking with an air of authority on this subject.

    Despite accepting that some polymers do have a very small (but finite) degree of permeability to water vapour I still find this scenario highly unlikely. I`m not a materials engineer, I`m a (former) chemist, but I had plenty of experience working with anhydrous reactions on both lab and manufacturing scale. I cannot recall permeation of water through rubber seals ever being considered as a problem.

    I too have read the Sinn report ; they put a desiccant inside the watch and I`ll accept the logic on that one although no-one else seems to consider it necessary. However, I don`t accept their claim that water permeating through the seals is a problem that needs addressing. A highly unlikely scenario unless the watch is pressurised in a saturated atmosphere rather than worn on a human wrist! I stick to my premise; watches don`t get wet inside owing to water vapour permeating through seals.

    Paul
    Last edited by walkerwek1958; 21st January 2014 at 00:48.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    I too have read the Sinn report ; they put a desiccant inside the watch and I`ll accept the logic on that one although no-one else seems to consider it necessary. However, I don`t accept their claim that water permeating through the seals is a problem that needs addressing.
    Exactly.

    Still a very clever selling point.

  42. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    I`m curious: do you have a scientific background? You're speaking with an air of authority on this subject.
    My first job was working as scientist for Rolls Royce helping to develop the RB211 jet engine. (I sometimes refer to myself jokingly as an ex rocket scientist. 'It's not rocket science!' 'Oh yes it is!').

    It is strange that no one questions Helium release valves and accept that Helium can permeate through the polymer seals. Well water vapour permeates through polymers far more easily than Helium.

    The reason it is not called a water vapour release valve, is that gases permeate through a process called Vapour Pressure and only to equalise the concentrations across the permeable barrier.

    When divers are deep diving they tend to be in an atmosphere of about 70% Helium which is of course also very compressed at depth. That Helium will permeate the polymers until it achieves a 70% concentration in the watch and it does this massively more quickly than say the Oxygen content as this is far less permeable. Water vapour is very much quicker to equalise than Helium but because there is probably less than 2% concentration in the divers atmosphere that is the maximum concentration it can attain in the watch. Therefore, it is the compressed Helium that is the problem rather than the more permeable water vapour.




    Mitch

  43. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by mac83 View Post
    I am serious, I appreciate your input with regards to my question but I dont like thread spoiling and dont want you guys to carry on with your discussion from the other thread which I followed with interest anyway.
    Its not exactly thread-spoiling. It's a discussion relevant to the original post ie how did the condensation most likely get into the watch, and therefore who should foot the bill for the repair. It's pretty much answering the question. It's not really the same as the water vapour/steam question in the other thread TBF.

    I'm all for civilised debate, and quite happy to admit I've learnt something at the end. This is not a personal spat.

  44. #44
    I suspect that the AD will point out that if a watch no matter how "Water Resistant" it is, will need to be checked on an annual basis. If it is to be used regularly in a water based atmosphere.

    That is their normal answer to such questions, whenever I have asked about how often I need to have it pressured checked.

  45. #45
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    Does the Panerai in question have an acrylic (as opposed to sapphire) crystal?
    ______

    ​Jim.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwg663 View Post
    Does the Panerai in question have an acrylic (as opposed to sapphire) crystal?
    no idea which model it is...

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huertecilla View Post
    Exactly.

    Still a very clever selling point.
    I agree. I have always been a bit sceptic all of the Sinn claims around some of their technologies. Of course they want to talk up the problem sine they have patented a system that solves the supposed problem. The fact that no one else thinks it's an issue, including Seiko and Rolex with their histories of very serious dive watch development, makes me wonder too.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by robcat View Post
    Its not exactly thread-spoiling. It's a discussion relevant to the original post ie how did the condensation most likely get into the watch, and therefore who should foot the bill for the repair. It's pretty much answering the question. It's not really the same as the water vapour/steam question in the other thread TBF.

    I'm all for civilised debate, and quite happy to admit I've learnt something at the end. This is not a personal spat.
    +1......Have to take my hat off to Mitch on this one, despite my initial scepticism! Water vapour (H2O molecules) are capable of permeating polymers, even though it sounds counter-intuitive to most of us. Still not convinced it has much relevance for the majority of watch-wearers, and I think Sinn are overstating the issue as a marketing ploy.

    A thought-provoking debate.......I was thinking about this one last night, trying to visualise a case-back seal and questioning how much surface area is exposed to the inside of the watch.......maybe I need to get out more!

    I think this also illustrates what a diverse bunch of folks we have on TZ!

    Paul

  49. #49
    Thank You everyone for explaining the physics of this subject.
    Does this tendency have implications as to the ideal conditions in which watches should be stored? My watches spend much more time in storage than in any bathroom or kitchen.
    I maintain intermittant background heating to the small enclosure where my safe is kept because I prefer to avoid retrieved watches feeling noticeably cold to touch (where a slight haze can briefly appear on the outside of the crystal). This isn't something I worry about because quite frankly thats as far as I am prepared to go with it - but it seems like the right time to ask. If you feel this has already been covered or exhausted then please ignore me.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch View Post
    It is strange that no one questions Helium release valves ...
    Hoho, I díd and dó question those! That too is a selling point and very little if anything more.
    Seiko pro dive watches do perfectly ok without and I bet those have seen a good deal more accumulated time under water than the Submariner models.

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