Reply With QuoteBut, surely, if it's his opinion it must be as good as facts, no? :OOriginally Posted by Captainhowdy
Unfortunately his style of education is a steady mixture of facts, bile, lies, hearsay and personal opinion rolled in to a statement put out as facts, very little that he says can be trusted as factual.
But, surely, if it's his opinion it must be as good as facts, no? :O
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
The 4 previous posters should remember that this is WT and not the BP.
Just sayin'
No chance of that being heeded – 'cilla hunting is the new #1 sport on TZ these days.The 4 previous posters should remember that this is WT and not the BP.
Just sayin'
Surely asking for details is still allowed in WT?The 4 previous posters should remember that this is WT and not the BP.
Just sayin'
Behave sonny.
Surely, by this logic, you should remove the word "swiss" altogether and say that it would be to "quite high earthling standards with quite high earthling design and specifications".
Who knows - maybe youre onto something...
Tell you what though - after travelling several light years to get here, I don't think the green men would be overly impressed with our "moonwatch"!
As one of those previous posters can I ask what the issue is here?The 4 previous posters should remember that this is WT and not the BP.
Just sayin'
A factual statement from one member produces a simple request for details to back it up by another member: why would that be a contentious issue?
No need for the BP at all; WT is the correct place for sharing of information on watches.
R
Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.
Not true - unnecessary attempt to make a point which is not correct IMO.
Jeez - does not seem like 2 mins ago when you joined the forum now you are an expert - just checked, 'twas only a few minutes ago......
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Careful there, this one has a short fuse, he's worked out how to use the ignore function and he's not afraid to use it.
My ignore button was made by Seiko. It's not working, but it popped into the service centre today and it shouldn't be too long until it's back from Japan. If it doesn't get lost on the way of course.
Depends on how old it is, of course: keeping spare parts for longer than a few weeks after discontinuing the (ever-changing) model of your ignore button could be a problem.
R
Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.
Liar!
Ignore buttons can be worked on locally, so there'd be no reason for it to be returned to Japan – that's only for the Grand Ignore ones, which you don't have any more, since you sold it.
If you gave yours a clean more often, I'm sure you'd find it works just fine.
Oh, and let GeneralCoattailsRider there, know that since using the button, I no longer have feelings of angst now that I can't see what he's written.....except for when he's been quoted!
It's been a blessing.......
Last edited by PJ S; 31st December 2013 at 13:41.
Well, IMO, YO is incorrect. So there!
My time since joined, is 348,480 minutes, give or take a couple of hundred – you might want to get that watch of yours looked at!
So if you aren't worried about a rare red dial and you wanted a Sub no date.
Which would be the cheapest year and model number to look out for?
as from what I gathered from the previous before the insults started ( it was a good read ) they are all the same otherwise.
They are not all the same, some info. here.........
http://www.ebay.com/gds/Rolex-Submar...2031256/g.html
It's not the request, it's the manner in which it is phrased, and the side discussion with personal insults regarding it, that has no place in WT.
Is there a particular difference in value between dials with the metal trim on the hour markers, assuming the rest of the watch was as similar as possible?
I do take your point. A degree of annoyance due to the history of failing to substantiate claims had crept in and, on reflection of reading the posts, it shouldn’t appear in WT. Nor should falsehoods, of course.
R
Last edited by ralphy; 31st December 2013 at 12:10. Reason: tiy-po
Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.
... and nor should soapboxes.
It's an outdated "stamp" of quality. In an age where with the right tools and equipment a product designed anywhere can be made anywhere and tested to any standard by anyone with the correct expertise. I think at perhaps, far too much importance is put on the word Swiss, so ye, why not remove it. I bet 80% of the Rolex buyers that Cilla hates so much don't even know its Swiss! There could be a case presented to insist the brand actually is British, and that a move to Switzerland was circumstantial at a time unrelated to modern day.
If Rolex did move production to china, japan, timbuctoo or mars, would it actually make any difference?
My motivation is putting this idea forward, is that perhaps Cilla is putting too much importance on where something is made, and not enough on the standards its made to, how its tested and the quality on completion and delivery to the showroom.
I'm not a massive seiko fan, I like them but haven't spent Rolex money on them, but I appreciate them and hope one day I will own one. But, it would make little difference to me if it was made in Japan or Indonesia, Italy, Afghanistan or Canada. Why should it? It will be made to seikos exacting standards wherever its manufactured. It will still say "Grand Seiko".
Last edited by jrpippen; 31st December 2013 at 12:22.
Disagree to a certain respect about it does not matter where the item is made provided the quality is maintained, some cultures do not seem to have the same grasp of quality that others do yet production still goes ahead obviousely due to the higher financial rewards for the mother company. Fender is a good example of a major brand producing guitars in more cost efficient Mexico even though it is widely accepted that they are inferior to items produced in California. When greed rears its ugly head the product can suffer and this is true of many consumer items.
Yes. The earlier matte dial 5513s with painted indices are preferred by collectors and command a significant premium (easily 20-25%) over the later gloss-dial 5513s with the white gold (WG) surround indices which were introduced, I believe, in 1989.
Plus, if an earlier matte dial 5513 had its dial replaced by Rolex during a later service, Rolex would have used the gloss WG dial. So you often find early 5513s with later, gloss dials, and they're worth much less than if they still had their original dial.
So, that's a good argument. Id answer it thus:
Fender USA guitars are regarded as superior, but Its to do with the American wood used. The original fender sound that is now ledge diary was created using a particular wood that actually can't be produced exactly anywhere else, even with transplanted seeds etc. The meteoric factors in another location would not be the same and so one could argue the guitar would not play with the same sound. However: if the wood was harvested in the USA and then made into a strat in Mexico, by a fender technician trained by the company, and tested to the fender standards used in the USA, would it actually play any differently. I would argue no, and that actually the made in USA thing becomes a myth in this case.
If the Mexican guitar is produced using South American wood then no doubt there would be differences in the way the instrument behaves. If the workers are not as skilled then this also would be true.
But. . If a Mexican makes a guitar in Mexico from American wood and American pickups etc are used, and the Mexican has been trained in the USA, or at least by a fender technician, to the same standard all US technicians are then actually the made in the USA thing becomes academic.
That's my argument with the watches.
Literally, if all from Rolex Geneva move to Hong Kong, move the headquarters brick by brick and continue production over there, using the same standards for materials and quality then should the watch now say made in Hong Kong? And if it did, should it make any difference?
^^ Thank you. As I figured. Guess I'm going to have to settle for a gloss dial or wait a bit longer.
Well, yes, it should say "made in Hong Kong" - because it was made in Hong Kong.
Would it make any difference? Same staff, same factory, same equipment? No, it wouldn't - unless the swiss elves got so homesick they started making mistakes!
It reminds me of the time I asked my workmate, a very blinkered Manchester United supporter, if he would still support United if the whole Manchester City squad were swapped with the current United squad - manager, trainers and all.
His reply was priceless - "Course I would - still United innit!" - he actually couldn't understand why Id even ask such an obvious question.
Logic plays very little part in these debates - and why should it? Once again it boils down to whether geography matters to those paying the money - and if it does then a swiss watch is worth the money they pay for it - in their minds at least.
There is also the fact that rolex currently DO have a rather good production facility in Switzerland and are very very unlikely to move it...
I bought a matte dial 5513 from '83, head only. So essentially I picked a matte dial over a bracelet. Have not regretted it.
But there's nothing wrong with a gloss dial. Remember we spend most of our decision making looking at macro photos taken by fellow watch obsessives. In real life the difference is not nearly as pronounced.
And if your gloss dial ever needs replacing, you can get one from Rolex. Can't do that with a matte dial.
Last edited by dbt001; 31st December 2013 at 14:31.
I doubt very much if Mercedes would agree with your logic, when the ML model was introduced all the parts were shipped over to some banana republic and assembled under the watchful eye of 'highly trained technicians' it was an absolute disaster, but they were still sold to the unsuspecting public who falsely assumed they were getting German build quality! Jeremy Clarksons words not mine!!
I think the word that is being missed in the equation is Craftmanship, ask Nissan who produce cars in the UK and ship them back to Japan. CRAFTMANSHIP.
Last edited by bobdog; 31st December 2013 at 15:14.
Rolex 8% price rise per 2 januari I read.
Who believes that this has ány relation to the cost of the movements?
Who cares is a better question.
[QUOTE=jrpippen;2984390]
Literally, if all from Rolex Geneva move to Hong Kong, move the headquarters brick by brick and continue production over there, using the same standards for materials and quality then should the watch now say made in Hong Kong? [quote]
Yes. Obviously.
Not for the product; that will be the same but be assured that it will make a wórld of difference for the perceived price ceiling by the buyers. The latter is the whole reason for the seals of origins and the attraction of being misleading about it.And if it did, should it make any difference?
No one. However it has a relation to 2 things: One is the inflation average in its main markets, and the other -linked to the first- is to maintain desirability.
Rolex sells most -if not all- of the classic lines it produces (I am excluding Cellini as I don't know). They achieve this by keeping the supply low and the demand high.
If anything, it is a lesson in marketing. And because customers are satisfied, they can perpetuate this year in year out. So much so that even second hand Rolexes (I am not talking special collectors pieces here) keep their value better than EVERY single production watch (here again, I am excluding high end PP, VC, independents and the likes)
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Please and for the last time provide a single shred of evidence that Rolex is being misleading about the origins of their product.
Pardon? I think you are mixing things up.
Rolex would be most happy with sharper definitions of ´Swiss Made´, more happy still with an ´All Swiss Made´ denomination. It would offer another selling point. Red print would do nicely.....
Last edited by Huertecilla; 31st December 2013 at 16:41.
Quality comes at a cost, and this will be more and more true in years to come.Try to save up so you can get a Rolex. Put away a little every month and soon you will be there. I can after many years of Rolex Submariner ownership confirm the models greatness. AND its not money lost, like it would be (and is) with inferior brands.
So dont worry too much about the price increase, you will get on the train one day too, just dont give up. Good luck
Very good advice , I've been pining for one for a while , beautiful iconic watch steeped in history ...
This is great news, pushing used prices up with it.
So true, they are a great watch, well worth saving up for.
Yeah, I feel sorry for all those Japanese people who buy nissans built in some backwards banana republic, thinking they're getting japanese build quality...
<Chuckle>
Quite modest really, give the 12.5% price rise by Seiko just announced. Any relation to the cost of their movements, d’you think?
R
Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.
Sounds like good news for anyone buying a pre-owned Seiko, as there's no way used prices will keep pace.
It makes no difference to me where the watch is made. What is far more important is the brand, history, heritage and most if all, the quality.
[QUOTE=Huertecilla;2984570][QUOTE=jrpippen;2984390]
Literally, if all from Rolex Geneva move to Hong Kong, move the headquarters brick by brick and continue production over there, using the same standards for materials and quality then should the watch now say made in Hong Kong?So eddies watches should say made in Germany?
Yes. Obviously.
Not for the product; that will be the same but be assured that it will make a wórld of difference for the perceived price ceiling by the buyers. The latter is the whole reason for the seals of origins and the attraction of being misleading about it.
I have to be honest - I know the history behind 'Swiss' made watches has significance but as long as a watch is well made frankly I don't care where it was produced/assembled/designed. Why even bother putting a country name on the dial when all the parts will have been sourced from all over the globe? Seems very old fashioned in 2014 with a global economy. If the Chinese are deemed prestigious enough to make iPhones then why not anything else? For example my iphone is 3 years old this week and still faultless - never had another phone last 3 years, which means it's actually been pretty cheap in the time I've had it. When I read designed in California made in China (knowing Jonathan Ive was born in Chingford in Essex) I didn't give a monkeys!
Because the right country is worth a LOT of extra business/profit margin.
It would be in the interest of several Swiss brands, incl. Rolex, if 'Swiss Made' were more Swiss made but the bigger picture is that that the interest of the Swiss industry, incuding the bulk of the watch industry, lies with outsourcing:
Cheaper outsourced manufacturing under a valuable country name.
The example of ' brand O' bracelets provided by Daddel is as clear as it comes. Through the AD those are sold at the tenfold price of what the same thing fetches as an aftermarket part on ebay. Once hooked to the watch the only difference is the distribution channel.
I must have missed Richard's "brand O" post, are you saying the aftermarket bracelets are of the exact same quality and made in the same factory as the oem bracelets, or only that they look the same at first glance?
It was some time ago, ISTR genuine Omega bracelet link came in a packet saying made in China. However once again with our resident Rolex hating troll this has absolutely nothing to do with Rolex, or the submariner model and everything to do with his pathetic agenda.
I suggest the OP go for the 5512 - the real McQueen
“Don’t look back, you’re not heading that way.”
Or a Hanhart
but it defo not a Heuer which he was a prop used in one film.
Excellent news on the Rolex price increase as my 10 Rolexes will have also increased in value.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
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