Reply With QuoteI just wonder at the shocking rise in the number of cases of ADHD and the like since we stopped beating all the naughty kids with sticks. Just saying ;)
I went to the same school as a work colleague and today we were reminiscing about some of the old teachers, as usually some were ok but most were right miserable sods.
We had one particular teacher who was a bit of a weirdo, he would think nothing of spitting and shouting at you and it seemed that it made no difference if you didn't understand something, he was just one weird miserable bastard. I was unaware that one day my friend was on the receiving end of one of his legendary flip outs and he received a blackboard rubber smack on his forehead.
I was quizzing him to what his parents had said when he went home with the mark on his head, he explained that his dad was not that bothered and that he had probably deserved it.
It kind of got me thinking to how far we've come with what we find acceptable with regards to corporal punishment in school. For me, I find the whole concept of corporal punishment within school deplorable, I've managed to bring my kids up with a healthy respect for other people and their belongings without having to lay a finger on them. Now I'm not sure when we went away from the cane and slippering, I remember it being fazed out when I was at school in perhaps the early to mid 80s but I'm glad it has been. The thought of someone striking my children angers me.
So where do you stand on corporal punishment in school? Is it the reason today why it appears that a lot of children have no respect or is it a generalised lack of parenting skills? Should it be brought back?
What would your reaction be to one of your kids being struck in the head with a board rubber?
FFF
I just wonder at the shocking rise in the number of cases of ADHD and the like since we stopped beating all the naughty kids with sticks. Just saying ;)
Well it's funny you should say that, because my youngest is autistic with ADHD, I guess it's because I didn't beat him when he was younger hey ;-)Originally Posted by Cirrus
There is probably still time ;)
Discipline is lacking in children these days. Teachers, in fact any adult, can't instil this anymore, so it's left to parents. Unfortunately, many are failing.
Last edited by burnsey66; 31st October 2013 at 21:18. Reason: Spelling, on a teaching thread!!!
I will always remember Grammar school 1979 when one of my classmates was basically assaulted by the teacher. He was thrown over a desk and absolutely thrashed. Child abuse pure and simple.
At an all boys school in the early 70's and had many a board rubber scar! You have to wonder whether the current namby-pamby (sorry - politically correct) views have led to some of the problems we see from today's kids. I never had to lay a hand on my two; but if the parents can't instil what is wrong and right the perhaps the education system should "educate" the kids. JMHO
No chance, he's almost as big as me now.
Last edited by Franky Four Fingers; 31st October 2013 at 23:37.
Yes, I tend to agree with you, but educate with violence?
Only the once... after that it is just the threat of violence.
I take it nothing happened?
To the OP this teacher wasn't a Maths teacher was he? We had a Maths teacher who was as mad as a frog, he also used to throw the board rubber at you if you aren't paying attention and if caught rocking on your chair would come along and push you over.
Educate with discipline and teach respect - not necessarily violence. Difficult to do today (with hands tied). Just saying!
I remember going to school one morning, probably about 10, with a note from my mum to my teacher. 'Please excuse the hand print on my sons thigh but if you had a son as bolshie as him this morning you would have done the same thing'. The teacher wrote back - 'I agree'. Funnily enough he was the best teacher in the school.
I don't agree with someone else hitting/abusing my kids but sometimes the threat (or actual) of pain is ok. Btw I've never smacked my kids and I don't feel I ever would. However if it was good for me it should be good for them!!!
Absolutely nothing.
But in the same school there was other teachers that had the respect of the pupils and didn't have to resort to physical violence. Maybe it could also have been down to the way those teachers respected the pupils.
Lol, no he was a language teacher, French if I remember correctly, however I do remember a maths teacher who wasn't the full ticket.
+1 for that.
I'm 49 now but I will never forget one particular incident in my second year of infant school. The teacher would get a small group of children to gather around her desk and read aloud. She obviously wasn't impressed with my reading skills one afternoon because all of a sudden she rammed a finger deep inside my mouth. She tore the roof of my mouth and I was left bleeding and somewhat traumatised. But at least her unconventional teaching methods/ physical assault on me improved my reading skills no end. I'll never forget her long painted fingernails. Even today I don't feel comfortable with women with painted nails.
My parents met with the head teacher but they didn't pursue their complaint any further. She told them she put her finger inside my mouth to encourage me to open my mouth properly when reading aloud.
A year or two later and it was obvious that I wasn't very good at sums, either. During one lesson my teacher lost patience with me and punched me in the small of my back. I never told my parents. And during the summer months when everyone else could go outside to play each afternoon I was kept inside to work on my sums. This was just your average state infant and junior school in the north-east of England in the late 1960s to early 1970s.
Comprehensive school wasn't so bad. I was still hopeless at maths though. During one maths lesson in my final year there I must have driven the teacher to distraction because he stood behind me and kneaded my shoulders with his hands for several seconds. This was a creepy incident that surprised many of my classmates as much as it did me.
Still, it wasn't all bad. When I arrived at sixth form college I was shocked to find teachers who took an interest in me and encouraged me to focus on all the subjects I had a talent for. Because of the teachers I found at this late stage in my education I went on to university and finished with a good degree and postgraduate qualifications.
I hope that the standard of teaching has improved since those days. And, perhaps because of my experiences, I don't think teachers - or any other adults for that matter - should be allowed to physically assault children.
Conversely, a teacher at my wife's school (she's a counselor) was being badgered threatened and harrassed by two particularly nasty 16 year old girls that the teacher lost it and threw her lunch at one of the girls. Apparently, assault with a hamburger gets you fired. Nothing said to the little shits that caused it.
I once got into a heated debate with a lawyer friend, he said corporal punishment was straightforward assault (I recall exactly his words), whereas I argued it was a fitting punishment and that the law was an arse.
Put it this way, I recall seeing a belting exactly twice in my 13 years of schooling, both times for cheating in exams. Did it teach discipline and respect for the rules? - on the statistics of hardly seeing it used, I'd say yes. Is discipline and respect lacking in today's world, again I say yes.
As an aside, my old man always tells of how, as children in the 40s/50s, they were shit scared of the police, as they would give you a cuff round the ear if you were caught up to no good. Another story to argue the rights and wrongs of, but things are way too liberal nowadays and society has suffered for it, a bit more harshness when young would go a long way - in my opinion.
This is just my opinion but I've always considered that if you are to instil respect in to someone then probably striking them isn't the best method, surely to do so should be done on trust,kindness not through brutality and fear.......like I said perhaps a bit namsy pansy but jmho.
If only it were as easy as that.
I guess we all have a view somewhere between nansy pansy and mob lynching - I don't suppose as a society/planet we'll ever find an all-inclusive perfect medium
You used to get physically disciplined at home, so it was the norm at school and most parents would be quite happy.
During my time in the services, discipline was often instilled physically during training. We didn't like it, but it was the norm and it wasn't for nothing, you had cocked up.
When you grow a little older and wiser, you realise why. The physical elements were there to simply speed up the process. Respect is great, but until you were conversant with the job, how could you respect? In simple terms, when a colleague, or senior rank gave an instruction, you followed it. A split second of hesitation, or debate could result in tragedy. That's discipline.
Its not old fashioned to expect a teacher to have the welfare of the kids at heart, so let them do their job.
Discipline is not there anymore. I had quite a few clips round the ear at school and if told parents I got another one. Nowadays they run home to tell parents who then complain. That's the difference and it shows
I hardly ever hit my own children...only once that I can recall...
For running straight out across a road and nearly getting killed despite endless lecturing about not doing that (endless)...scared me witless tbh and I smacked the hand of the child, hard, about 4 times to make an impression. I don't know if it was right or wrong but I needed to keep them safe.
I think, personally, on rare occasion, it's merited.
In schools (I'm a headmaster) I do think teachers have in some cases been robbed of power by governmental regulations and parents who are simply not willing to accept responsibility. I don't want (and don't read) to sound like the Daily Mail though.
I'm not at all certain that corporal punishment is a good idea in schools as the potential for abuse is huge. Both physical and otherwise.
The problem however is that when all other reasonable sanctions are removed either by the state or non-cooperative parents a small subset of students can come to believe that they are (literally) untouchable and can do as they please.
Let's be clear, it's very rare. The vast majority of the press hysteria is unfounded. On the other hand teachers are now vulnerable to all sorts of excess regulations and "do's and don't's". Many of then are frankly idiotic and have come about from a time when legislators were obsessed with child abuse.
It is not that either of these issues is not serious for the individual concerned. They are deeply so. The question is should we react to rare cases by introducing legislation, either "PC" or "Back to Basics" that is knee jerk and reactionary?
I would suggest that we should not.
Corporal punishment in schools is too difficult to manage what ever ones opinion of it.
Students who are disruptive and deeply unpleasant from families who have lost control of them and who are violent and aggressive need a fast track removal system not one which can drag on for years.
In this manner students and teachers receive reasonable protection and can get on with the real purpose of school, learning (and socialising)
Legislation that potentially criminalises sensible actions (teacher hugging distressed primary school child) needs to be re-examined.
School trips for example are now so replete with pit falls that many schools are dropping them. This is a shame.
All the above is of course only my humble opinion.
I'm all for corporal punishment, and I'll explain why. Punishment however, should be dished out by the headmaster and headmaster only. No teachers thumping students or throwing board erasers etc.
My belief is, if a child is taught respect at home then they will respect others as well, ergo, they behave in school. I live on a council estate, and there is a fair share of kids on this estate who's parents just don't give a damn what their kids get up to and surprise surprise, they are cheeky little monsters. Throwing stones and potatoes at people's windows, turning outside taps on in people's houses, scratching cars etc etc, and when you approach the parents, they don't give a shit. When a child is not held responsible at home what chance is there elsewhere?
I'm not saying its fair for the school to have to instil discipline, but if the fear of being punished is there, it MAY help to deter bad behaviour.
I have picked up numerous teachers in my cab, and I recall one teacher telling me how she often gets called the C word in class, and then gets told by the same student that if she throws them out of the classroom the student will sue for denying them an education or some such crap.
Call me a philistine, but if my child is unruly and words are not getting through, I will give a smack across the back of the legs. It's never very hard and never in public, however I have only had to do it on very rare occasions because usually the threat of favourite toys being taken away or time on the naughty step suffices.
Today's youth most certainly have less respect for other people, and I do believe it's down to lack of discipline brought about by over the top human rights. They feel they are unaccountable because they KNOW they can't be punished. Let's be honest, a nights detention is hardly going to instil the same fear as the whip.
Edit: the "whip" was the term used when I was in school for the cane. It's not an actual whip, lol.
Last edited by jaytip; 1st November 2013 at 00:04.
Not everyone and I expect some headmasters would be happy with handing out punishment, ask Mikee below.
How do you mean exactly, Burnsey? Also, I've often wondered about what was meant when they said that military discipline in 'glasshouses' was tough.
Seriously, interested to know what that meant.
G
Kids need discipline and corporal punishment is something they understand.
I went to a Grammar school but when I shot another pupil in the arse with an air pistol I got four of the best from the headmaster. Richly deserved and calmed my wayward ways. What would they do now?
I've always maintained that kids (especially boys) are like wild animals and need the occasional whack. They often don't respond to logic.
All of my three had a whack when they were younger and have all turned out fine with a deal of respect for their old man and I always get a kiss when they come around.
I know that if I hadn't handled them in a robust way they wouldn't have had as much respect for me or anyone else, thought me a soppy old twonk and made everyone's lives a misery.
That's just the way it is and I feel sorry for teachers now with no way to discipline unruly kids.
Cheers,
Neil.
You only need to go to schools in other countries - especially the poorer countries in Asia and Africa - to see how well-behaved and respectful the kids are. They are also grateful to get an education and appreciate being there.
The kids in this country are spoilt beyond compare. Everything is handed to them on a plate and they still spit on the food.
Corporal punishment or even just straightforward discipline and respect (both domestic and at school) evaporated years ago and it's certainly no coincidence that you don't need to go far to find a teenager who has no respect for anything or anyone.
We had a Latin teacher who did this as well as hurled chalk (mercifully was rarely accurate) and also used to bash people's heads together for talking - it wasn't that bad but all a bit random still kept us on our toes ! The head used to apparently give people the slipper but never sinned that much so maybe there is something in it...
Well, without wanting to start an enquiry, discipline in the army comes at you from two elements - your immediate superior and your colleagues. Everything is done as a team, so you win as a team and lose as a team. You are also disciplined as a team.
You cock up, your squad would suffer, be it push ups, or other physical punishment, decided by the officer in charge.
When you finished your day and returned to the comfort of your bed, the team could often decide to punish you again, for the hardship you'd put them through.
On the flip side, should the person in charge decide to get a little more personal, he would need to be aware, before starting to get giddy, the squad were also behind you...
Obviously I was exemplary and therefore was not too often on the receiving end.
As for beatings, yes it happened, but it wasn't the weak on the receiving end, just the dishonourable. Most left.
I remember being hit on the wrist with a heavy wooden ruler in the early 90s for "daydreaming". I'd finished the book, finished another I was reading, and had nothing to do...
So you are saying that many of the social problems we are now experiencing originate in the 1980's and Government policy and legislation of the time - which is when corporal punishment was banned and the belief that children and parents are "customers of education" began?
I might have known it wouldn't be long before someone blamed it all on Maggie!
So clever my foot fell off.
I think you'll find that the rot started to set in in the 1970's under Callahan and Shirley Williams. The document "Education in schools:a consultative document" which recommended a child centred approach to teaching and also considered educational special needs from which a plethora of experts started to diagnose many of the "problems" used as excuses by many parents to use as reasons for their their kids to underachieve.So you are saying that many of the social problems we are now experiencing originate in the 1980's and Government policy and legislation of the time - which is when corporal punishment was banned and the belief that children and parents are "customers of education" began?
I might have known it wouldn't be long before someone blamed it all on Maggie!
Personally I went to a school in the late 50's and 60's where corporal punishment was dished out at regular intervals for all sorts of misdemeanours. Punishment included lines, cane (your choice on hands or backside), board rubbers slung at you. In fact, thinking back when we were offered lines or the cane I can't remember a single instance of anyone choosing lines. If you had done wrong you knew what the punishment was and you took it uncomplainingly. I don't remember anyone having any disrespect for teachers either, we had good ones and bad ones like any school but they were judged on how they got the message across not on whether they punished you or not (in fact, thinking back, the ones that tended not to punish very often were thought of a soft).
I think we went down the wrong route with all the soft left wing education ideas of the 70's which has led to some of todays problems. When I was at college we were asked to write up any ideas we had for the future of the education system (I've no idea why). I reckoned, and still do, that all kids should leave secondary education at 16 or 17 the do 2 - 3 years of either military service or service in fire, police, hospitals or some type of properly managed voluntary service. After that they should be given choice to continue education or go out to work. That, I believe, would round them out a little as individuals and teach them something about the real world. Working with adults in the working environment would straighten out many of their attitudes and give them time to reflect on what they really wanted to do with their lives.
I went to school during the corporal punishment era,and was on the receiving end a few times, but I think it's all a bit of a red herring. It was never the deterant that's being suggested. At times it was a badge of honour. I think the issue isn't discipline backed by corporal punishment, but rather discipline backed by ANY form of meaningful punishment. There seem to be few consequences to behaving badly or disrespectfuly in schools any more.
Guys I can tell you for an absolute fact that corporal punishment was still used in the school I attended up until I left in 1986, and probably continued for some time after I left. So any ideas suggested/put forward by the governments to do away with corporal punishment in the 70s certainly hadn't filtered down to the Welsh mining valleys, by the middle if the 80s.
You only need to go to schools in other countries - especially the poorer countries in Asia and Africa - to see how well-behaved and respectful the kids are. They are also grateful to get an education and appreciate being there.
There's a reason they're well behaved because they are fearful of being whipped in to an inch of their life's....have you not seen some of the appalling and darn right shocking videos floating around highlighting the behaviour of schools in China and Africa? I'm sorry but any adult who feels they need to do such a thing has failed not only as a teacher but also has a human being.
strange to recall....I got strapped several times for various minor demeanours- prob 1976-ish and it didn't bother me then or now,-they used a leather strap about 2 foot long and stiff as a bit of wood.but I did see a lad who'd been caught throwing a wood chisel bent over a woodwork desk and giving an instant, completely over-the-top seeing-to in public with a 2 foot steel rule- maybe 8 or 10 strikes, and as hard as a grown adult could deliver.
that affected me more, seeing the instant brutality of a complete twat who'd lost it.
It wasn't very nice, iirc a few girls cried.
Last edited by GOAT; 1st November 2013 at 14:44.
The academy I attended from 1968 to 1975 favoured the Lochgelly Tawse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawse). We also had a fine
selection of duster chuckers, most of whom were inaccurate (on purpose, I think). "Spider" Boyd, however, was unerring at the "over-the-
shoulder, with back-to-class throw" & seldom missed.
Good teachers had classes who behaved & didn't require to use the "strap" to maintain discipline. Several teachers had a "hard look" that
could leave you a little queasy & if that was followed by a "hard word", either in front of the class, or in your ear, you knew that your
behaviour required to improve. That's not to say that they didn't resort to the "belt" on occasion.
Bad teachers, or teachers who were perceived to be weak, were the ones, IME, who over-used corporal punishment.
I received punishment quite a few times & TBH it generally didn't hurt. When you got the strap from a "bad" teacher, it was a bit of a lark.
When you got it from a "good" teacher, it was a behaviour modifier & an example setter. I can clearly remember getting two of the belt (we
could be given up to six) from a bull of teacher called "Tam" Henderson for fighting with another, older lad. He told us that he was embarrassed to be punishing us, as he hadn't belted anyone for five years. He must have practised at home, because that did sting.
Part of me thinks that when I attended school, it was still post-war (some of the textbooks were pre-war!) & there was a much greater
respect for your elders & betters. That's all gone & the "You're not the boss of me" attitude is all too prevalent. The idea that teachers
were actively "In Loco Parentis" seems to have disappeared too.
______
Jim.
Except when they've been accused of doing something wrong, when it's all their fault.The idea that teachers
were actively "In Loco Parentis" seems to have disappeared too.
Quite.
______
Jim.
I went to a highly regarded grammar school in the 1960s. It achieved extremely good results. I enjoyed my time there, as well as doing well. Most of the teachers were very good and never resorted to physical punishment - and never felt they had to. The best manged to inspire pupils to be interested and do well.
But there was one teacher who clearly enjoyed terrifying children and treating them with gross disrespect. He would often conduct a whole class by sitting and glowering at his desk, not saying a a word. Individual children would be victimised and ridiculed, often having their work thrown at them from across the room. I remember he was also in the habit of walking along corridors with his arm outstretched at face height and his fist clenched. Many children walked round a corner and straight into into it - which pleased him no end.
In short he was a disgracefully bad teacher and and sadist to boot. No child would have dared complain about him such was the fear he created. But the worst thing was that the other teachers and the head knew about his behaviour and tolerated it.
However much people may think that 'kids these days have no respect' (and similar timeless old saws), I personally am glad that a teacher who behaved in the same way today would find it much more difficult not to be found out, would likely be complained about by parents and I would hope eventually barred from teaching.
I went to a boys Grammar school from 1965 to 1970 (Sir William Borlase in Marlow), and the cane was still very much in use then....as was 'fagging' for the prefects, which basically meant as the first years were going into the refectory for lunch, a prefect would pick one at random to fetch all their lunch from the servery. I once broke a window, and was given the choice of asking my parents for 10/- to replace it, or receiving 6 of the best. I chose the latter, because I didn't dare tell my parents what I had done. Luckily, I got the deputy head, who wasn't very accurate with the cane, and had 6 stripes to show for it. The Headmaster, however, was a marksman and you would have just one welt from his six whacks!
When I was in first year one of the English teachers called John Jamieson or "JJ" had a reputation as a monster, he was pretty gruff and only taught the third years and above, and there was a rumor that he broke a pupil's wrist giving him the belt - christ on a bike!
Alas, in later years, I went on a school trip with him and was also taught, the guy was absolutely brilliant and had nothing but the interest of educating and furthering his boys as best he could - I'm pretty sure the broken wrist was a load of BS, but boy it worked as a scare!
If there is no discipline, there is no fear, therefore no deterrent.
If all any pupil fears is a verbal telling off, threat of detention, or even worse, go stand outside the classroom, then of course the is no real consequences to fear, rather than a good lashing.
Our History teacher (Mr Gray) had a three pronged belt, he would only need to give you one lash on each hand to get your full attention, not many people messed about in his class.
Just remembered, we referred to the belt/strap/tawse as "the scud" - I have not thought of that since about 1984!
Thanks for the enlightenment, Burnsey. I bet you thought Shepton Mallet was a Shakespearean Actor ManagerWell, without wanting to start an enquiry
You cock up, your squad would suffer, be it push ups, or other physical punishment, decided by the officer in charge.
When you finished your day and returned to the comfort of your bed, the team could often decide to punish you again, for the hardship you'd put them through.
On the flip side, should the person in charge decide to get a little more personal, he would need to be aware, before starting to get giddy, the squad were also behind you...
Obviously I was exemplary and therefore was not too often on the receiving end.
As for beatings, yes it happened, but it wasn't the weak on the receiving end, just the dishonourable. Most left..
Re the main theme, like you I was too much of a goody, but I remember being very shocked, as an eight year old, seeing this teacher called Schone, suddenly shake his arm and make a cane appear from down his jacket sleeve and give one of my pals a right whacking on the hands. The sod must have been carrying it all the time. Mind you that was in 1849.
SWMBO tells me that a teacher at her mixed secondary school would 'skim' the arms or legs of the boys still in short duds with a device made of two rulers fastened together with elastic bands, which had the effect of pulling out hair and skin as he hit them with it. Some right weirdos, designing these evil little devices in the staff room?
G
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