Grand Seiko 10 year limit - What do you make of this?

[scarto]

http://professionalwatches.com/2013/...-seiko-th.html

Surprised? I am.

Who knew?

[snowman]

More disappointed.

Seiko's approach to such things seems quite Japanese (surprise), where old things (with some exceptions) really aren't valued.

I'm sure they make GS for the Japanese market where wearing a 30 year old watch isn't seen as cool, but out of date and a bit cheap.

The Swiss, tradition is all, ethos doesn't apply in the onwards and upwards Japanese culture and whilst a GS might give them a run for their money quality wise, few in Japan really bother about something 5 years old, let alone 40!

Obviously there are exceptions, castles, etc and the Japanese love for (mostly British) classic cars, but generally new is good, old is, well, old hat.

M.

[Huertecilla]

http://professionalwatches.com/2013/...-seiko-th.html

Surprised? I am.

Who knew?

Most should know as this is old news recycled and discussed here on TZ-Uk and other forums at length.
Current official pov is that they are aware that western perception of high end watches necessitates a revamp of their approach.

[MrBanks]

Very disappointed with Seiko. I would understand this way of thinking towards their low and mid range models, but not their flagship range.

[Daddelvirks]

Apparently they survive well, there are still loads for sale, and often in good condition.

Daddel.

[markrlondon]

It makes one wonder about the long term survivability of Spring Drives, doesn't it. :-( A potentially only ten year serviceable life on an expensive Spring Drive is a tad worrying.

[Huertecilla]

Apparently they survive well, there are still loads for sale, and often in good condition.

Daddel.

and contrary to popular wis-dom there is no magic involved in servicing.

[Huertecilla]

It makes one wonder about the long term survivability of Spring Drives, doesn't it. :-( A potentially only ten year serviceable life on an expensive Spring Drive is a tad worrying.

As I wrote Seiko is revamping their policy.

[JP Chestnut]

http://professionalwatches.com/2013/...-seiko-th.html

Surprised? I am.

Who knew?

I knew and it's the one main things I dislike about GS. On the other hand, anecdotal evidence suggests that GS will do everything they can (short of fabrication) to service a watch passed that date.

[scarto]

Most should know as this is old news recycled and discussed here on TZ-Uk and other forums at length.
Current official pov is that they are aware that western perception of high end watches necessitates a revamp of their approach.

The same could be said for Rolex and its 'discussion' in your capable hands.

Honestly, this wasn't a dig though - I would quite like a GS if I get the opportunity. I didn't know this though and was quite surprised when someone told me today, citing this article.

[Dave+63]

It's not just the Japanese. I once owned a vintage Rolex (circa 1940) and sent it to Rolex for a service only to receive it back with a nice letter saying that they don't keep spare parts for old watches do they wouldn't touch it. I sent it to an independent watchmaker in the end.

[Mr Stoat]

Most should know as this is old news recycled and discussed here on TZ-Uk and other forums at length.

First I've heard of it, but I'm not a GS guru!!

Whilst I can understand a mainstream manufacturer with changing range of watches can't keep spare parts for every watch they've ever made, only allowing for a 10 year lifespan on a watch costing 6k+ is a bit of a joke IMHO.
Does the same policy also apply to Credor?

Current official pov is that they are aware that western perception of high end watches necessitates a revamp of their approach.

So when will that be and how long will they offer spare parts / servicing for?

I guess this is always going to be the case if you go a little off-piste on the movement front.

[learningtofly]

Most should know as this is old news recycled and discussed here on TZ-Uk and other forums at length.
Current official pov is that they are aware that western perception of high end watches necessitates a revamp of their approach.

Well, well, Cilla... surely you can put up a better defence than that? Seems to me that the GS marketing machine is more style than substance ;)

[744ER]

Bit surprising, but must be very disappointing for the owners when they find out. The Seikos take huge hits from retail price already, this wont help.

They really cant take any sort of pride in their watches if they dont deem them worthy of support for more than 10 years!

[andyb]

Bit surprising, but must be very disappointing for the owners when they find out. The Seikos take huge hits from retail price already, this wont help.

They really cant take any sort of pride in their watches if they dont deem them worthy of support for more than 10 years!

Surprising and disappointing, but a bit of a logical leap to say they don't take any pride in their watches.

Still, it's not unique, try getting a hold of some older ronda movements (I want a Harley 375 for an old Fortis and someone to fit it - ok, hardly GS quality) or a replacement movement for a Pluton say.

[744ER]

Surprising and disappointing, but a bit of a logical leap to say they don't take any pride in their watches.

Still, it's not unique, try getting a hold of some older ronda movements (I want a Harley 375 for an old Fortis and someone to fit it - ok, hardly GS quality) or a replacement movement for a Pluton say.

Funny that, I bought that Omega and replaced it with a new and improved movement version, still available from Omega.

Breitling have changed owners several times, and the Plutons could be traded in for a while against a significant discount on a new Aerospace, Seiko is a family owned company since the start isnt it?

The real reason is most likely, Seiko arent selling enough of those prestige watches to financially justify continued manufacture of the parts after 10 years. That, or theyre just not very proud of their older stuff.

[forpetesake]

Some time ago whilst "researching" a possible Citizen Chronomaster, I seem to recall reference being made to a guarantee of parts availability for the remaining lifetime of the original purchaser. I can't at present remember the source and offer a pre-emptive apology if this is incorrect.

[forpetesake]

This seems as good a time as any to mention these people - "vintageseikorepair" .
I have never sought their repair services but have bought a pristine condition Seiko Bullhead from them.

[shadowninja]

I am surprised and disappointed. Will hold off until they make their minds up. Was strongly considering a GS for my next purchase.

[PJ S]

....Seiko is a family owned company since the start isnt it?

Yes, still are.

Out of curiosity, I wonder what is GO's spares stockholding policy?
Or someone with a similar production output to Grand Seikos?

Obviously up until 10 years have elapsed, Seiko will replace dwindling spares stock based on what they see/predict will be required, but if they aren't used, then there's nothing to say a 15 or 20 yo watch can't be repaired through lack of spare parts availability.

[Nagraboy]

Yes, still are.

Out of curiosity, I wonder what is GO's spares stockholding policy?
Or someone with a similar production output to Grand Seikos?

Obviously up until 10 years have elapsed, Seiko will replace dwindling spares stock based on what they see/predict will be required, but if they aren't used, then there's nothing to say a 15 or 20 yo watch can't be repaired through lack of spare parts availability.

Who knows, maybe they'll throw away any parts from watches over 10 years old? Either way it's not reassuring for owners or potential purchasers.

Maybe if you really wanted to buy a Grand Seiko you could get one pre-owned with a good bit of depreciation, with the intention of keeping it for just a few years at most. Wouldn't be so bad then I suppose.

[PJ S]

Whilst I can understand a mainstream manufacturer with changing range of watches can't keep spare parts for every watch they've ever made, only allowing for a 10 year lifespan on a watch costing 6k+ is a bit of a joke IMHO.
Does the same policy also apply to Credor?

Yes, Credor are no different.
That said, I was looking at getting a Credor (GCBR999) from 2000 (give or take a year) and enquired about links.
They had 3 spare links in stock or I could have a full replacement bracelet (no idea how many bracelets remained – didn't ask), which was almost the same price as the watch was going to cost!
No see-through caseback or fancy movement finishing as well, so that killed that notion stone dead.
Still doesn't stop eBay bidders offering strong money to sellers for a 12 yo watch using an 8L35 movement.

[PJ S]

Who knows, maybe they'll throw away any parts from watches over 10 years old? Either way it's not reassuring for owners or potential purchasers.

Maybe if you really wanted to buy a Grand Seiko you could get one pre-owned with a good bit of depreciation, with the intention of keeping it for just a few years at most. Wouldn't be so bad then I suppose.

No, I don't believe they do such a thing.
As I understand it, they actively stockhold for 7-10 years (as Seiko UK stated when I was talking to them about servicing Credors, etc), but then at the cut-off point, what's left is all there will be until full depleted or another design re-uses the same bracelet, hands, etc, etc.

[SternG]

I've been aware of this for quite some time. If I ever buy a GS, it'll be a 9F quartz. The ultimate no-worries watch.

[Chris_in_the_UK]

Well, not entirely surprised - you try get a 40 year old Japanese car repaired!!

[burnsey66]

Suppose the plus point is they still have a shelf life a little longer than their telly's.

Told you, tat is tat is tat.

[ralphy]

IIRC, the ten year policy applies to all Seiko's, not just the GS range. :-(

Current official pov is that they are aware that western perception of high end watches necessitates a revamp of their approach.

Do you have factual evidence to support this claim?

R

[homer555]

http://professionalwatches.com/2013/...-seiko-th.html

Surprised? I am.

Who knew?

great post, very informative , considering ive always liked GS , this is definitely gives a word of warning , very helpful

[Captainhowdy]

IIRC, the ten year policy applies to all Seiko's, not just the GS range. :-(

Do you have factual evidence to support this claim?

R

You might need to wait a while on that, as he's been here almost 4yrs and so far has never once managed to back up any of his wild pro Seiko claims.

But surely this news will pour cold water on the idea of anyone buying a Seiko over £300.

[Newbear]

Changes my feelings about Seiko, I must say.

[Captainhowdy]

Changes my feelings about Seiko, I must say.

As time goes by it's got to affect the already poor residual prices.

[Neil.C]

T'was ever thus.

I have been a big Seiko fan for many years and have owned a lot vintage GS's (sold some on here) and other high quality models.

They make some beautiful watches but their ethos was generally to change movement types every ten years and ditch the old ones.

I approached Seiko many years ago asking why I could not get spares for 6138/9 chronographs or date wheels for the notoriously fragile 56xx chronometers and they more or less laughed at me, told me to chuck out that old junk and buy a lovely new quartz.

I would never buy a new Seiko apart from their excellent cheaper ranges as I feel it is too much of a gamble personally.

When years ago on here I first questioned the spring drive movement and said it could become a very expensive white elephant in the future I was pretty much poo pooed as a silly old reactionary.

[andyb]

Funny that, I bought that Omega and replaced it with a new and improved movement version, still available from Omega.

I know, that was why I edited my post and indicated that in the edit box.

Breitling have changed owners several times, and the Plutons could be traded in for a while against a significant discount on a new Aerospace, Seiko is a family owned company since the start isnt it?

The real reason is most likely, Seiko arent selling enough of those prestige watches to financially justify continued manufacture of the parts after 10 years. That, or theyre just not very proud of their older stuff.

Well, it's true about comparative volumes in manufacture so that may be more likely than claiming they're not supporting them because they are not proud of their early stuff.

[Captainhowdy]

T'was ever thus.

I have been a big Seiko fan for many years and have owned a lot vintage GS's (sold some on here) and other high quality models.

They make some beautiful watches but their ethos was generally to change movement types every ten years and ditch the old ones.

I approached Seiko many years ago asking why I could not get spares for 6138/9 chronographs or date wheels for the notoriously fragile 56xx chronometers and they more or less laughed at me, told me to chuck out that old junk and buy a lovely new quartz.

I would never buy a new Seiko apart from their excellent cheaper ranges as I feel it is too much of a gamble personally.

When years ago on here I first questioned the spring drive movement and said it could become a very expensive white elephant in the future I was pretty much poo pooed as a silly old reactionary.

This thread will prove to be invaluable, whenever Cilla comes back out of his box to deride Rolex movements for not changing much over the years, at least we laugh at him with his collection of junk that no longer works or has any support

[swanbourne]

It's no big deal to fit a new mainspring, any watch repairer worth his salt can fit a non-original mainspring.

Eddie

[BSB]

Surely, this is only a problem if you buy a watch the very moment the movement reaches the end of its production with no derived replacement being forthcoming? I understand the 8L35 movement that is still current today is derived from the 1969 6159 movement. Would an 8L35 movement perhaps still use a compatible main spring for the 6159?

[mav66]

Don't Rolex have a simular policy? I remember reading a thread, either on here or one of the other forums. Someone sent a 30yr old Air King back to Rolex for a service. They sent it back to him, telling him the parts were no longer available, and advised him to buy a new watch.

[Carlton-Browne]

Rolex have a cut-off point but they do at least point you in the direction of somebody who can deal with your watch. I also believe that the actual cut-off point depends on who accepts the watch. I got an early 60s manual wind Precision through Bexley a couple of years ago when the consensus seemed to be that it would be rejected (including Jedly) but I don't know if there is a different approach now that they are at King's Hill.

[Daddelvirks]

What do we care????

Nobody is keeping a watch longer than a few years, flipping is THE sport around here.
In ten years time I could be dead, but now I'm alive and enjoying the magic of a beautiful springdrive watch.

And since I hate PP commercials, I don't care if the bloody thing will be passed on to the next generation.

I've said this many times before, as you well know, but if you buy your watches with spare cash, you don't need, and you have a healthy bank account, why bother about decades to come or resale.

I love watches!

Daddel.

[burnsey66]

What do we care????

Only a mug wouldn't care.

A brand which sees their products appreciate in value is slagged day in, day out, mainly by the Seiko brigade. That's fine and all part of a watch forum, but please don't make like for like comparisons. After all, there's plenty of cheap, throwaway watches to choose from which are much more comparabe. Not sure if any have a sweeping second hand like...

[Daddelvirks]

Only a mug wouldn't care.

A brand which sees their products appreciate in value is slagged day in, day out, mainly by the Seiko brigade. That's fine and all part of a watch forum, but please don't make like for like comparisons. After all, there's plenty of cheap, throwaway watches to choose from which are much more comparabe. Not sure if any have a sweeping second hand like...

OK, I'll be a mug then.

Seiko are doing well enough, and up to now have been a decent company to deal with.

Let's actually hear from somebody with a fairly recent GS if he was indeed given a cold shower when asking about a service for his watch.

Daddel.

[learningtofly]

This thread will prove to be invaluable, whenever Cilla comes back out of his box to deride Rolex movements for not changing much over the years, at least we laugh at him with his collection of junk that no longer works or has any support

Only a mug wouldn't care.

A brand which sees their products appreciate in value is slagged day in, day out, mainly by the Seiko brigade. That's fine and all part of a watch forum, but please don't make like for like comparisons. After all, there's plenty of cheap, throwaway watches to choose from which are much more comparabe. Not sure if any have a sweeping second hand like...

Funny

[@lf]

Isn't this common practice for many watchbrands? Having a minimal 10 years guarantee of spare parts after the last model/movement was produced doesn't seem very shocking to me. And if there is a comparable movement or parts which are interchangable with the "old" one it would be much longer. Will for example the OysterQuartz be services by rolex in 10 or 15 years?

[Huertecilla]

It's no big deal to fit a new mainspring, any watch repairer worth his salt can fit a non-original mainspring.

Eddie

Especially as there is no magic in GS calibers and most of it is solidly based in bread and butter Seiko tech/models.
The GS61 per example has the übercool and unparalelled Special and VFA yet there is fundamentally nothing trick or complicated about these and any decent watchmaker can service/repair them using parts from the Seiko parts bin.

Same thing even the GS quartz calibers. The designs are straightforward and easy to service. Any watchmaker familiar with post modern horology can service them. It is all simply VERY well and precisely made.

Daddel mentioned Patek and ´my´watchmaker had to make/adapt an escapement wheel arbour for a movement he was servicing. He would do so for any GS with the same ease.

[andrew]

What do we care????

Nobody is keeping a watch longer than a few years, flipping is THE sport around here.

Are expensive Seikos only bought by flippers on the internet, then?

Wait, I've answered my own question :D

[Belligero]

[...]Will for example the OysterQuartz be services by rolex in 10 or 15 years?

Yes.

They continue to provide detailed training on the movement as part of their advanced course, as well.

[Daddelvirks]

Are expensive Seikos only bought by flippers on the internet, then?

Wait, I've answered my own question :D

Well, there you go, a first, you've answered a question, wrongly that is, but still............

Daddel.

[Daddelvirks]

Yes.

They continue to provide detailed training on the movement as part of their advanced course, as well.

Another watch that will be there for the next generation!

What a saints they are at Rolex HQ............

Daddel.

[LuvWatch]

I would have thought part of the reason for the Seiko policy is:

now the following is true cos I read it somewhere,

- Seiko procduce 9,234,455,983 models or variants per year
- Rolex produce 5 models or variants per year

Now it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out - How and where can Seiko keep all the bits for 9,234,455,983 variants for 10 years!
and Rolex can keep their 5 in a spare drawer in St James.

[Huertecilla]

Isn't this common practice for many watchbrands? Having a minimal 10 years guarantee of spare parts after the last model/movement was produced doesn't seem very shocking to me. And if there is a comparable movement or parts which are interchangable with the "old" one it would be much longer. Will for example the OysterQuartz be services by rolex in 10 or 15 years?

Besides some of the gear train which it shares with the mechanicals, the Oysterquartz has no other model or earlier design for parts sourcing. The caliber specific bits were all produced 35 years ago. When a parts bins is exhausted then that is it as far as Rolex is concerned as the technology is no longer available.
This observed, some electric/electronic bits can be replaced with modern equivalents by a well trained post modern watchmaker or an electronics engineer with a watch hobby. Rolex will obviously not undertake such repair with non original parts.
Another example is JLC with the GP35x calibers. Even though it is claimed by Wenzig that GP will still service/repair those, JLC will simply replace the caliber with a later one. From a collectors pov this is the ultimate horror but from a functional pov this makes perfect sense. Very much akin to the Seiko pov (under revision).

In this perspective I find the car world provides a wonderfull relativating exaple with ´butchering´ highly desireable original vintage classics which are completely modernised under the skin and worth fortunes.
Those are the equivalent of a 1960 Grand Seiko with a 9F61 inside. In fact Seiko produce watches like this themselves in heritage releases...

Back on track have no worries about my vintage GS mechanicals but do think Seiko should revise their policy to a longer period ánd a best effort service for beyond that.