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This can be done two waysgood or bad.
If it is done bad,there will be no return.Leave it this way IMHO
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Greetings to all at TZ-UK. This is my first post, so here goes.....
I first wanted this watch in 1974 when I was just 14 years old. I saw it in the Sunday Times supplement when in class and during lessons (I hated accounts)
It was love at first sight and so I pestered my mates jewellers dad to locate one for me. He hadn't a clue what I was on about and I somehow managed to sublimate the rarity and cost at that time.
So fast forward to now and all good things come to those who wait, or so they say.
I bought it of it's second owner who never wore it but wanted one as he could not wait for his dad to pass on he's to him!
The previous owner (Also from NJ, New york) had worn it from new daily for all of the watches life previously.
I had 'some' provenance but no record of maintenence or repair. It did come with a new crystal however. A lot of the PVD had worn off and the second timer hand was annoyingly pale yellow.
So of it went to Orfina's repairers Schifferle & Schifferle. Three months later, I had my pride and joy back. I had accepted their reccomendations for repair and was very pleased with the results. However, I asked them to relume the batons and hands which they replied they could only do the minute and hour hand and the chrono lollypop minute hand dot.
The results are not brilliant and so I want to relume the watch totally.
I would appreciate any suggestions that you might have. Have any of you heard of 'The Relumer' based in greece, Athens. I have seen his website but have heard of damaged watches and suchlike so I am very wary after the watches recent exspensive restoration.
If possible, I would prefer the watch to be relumed in the UK.
Steve.
Last edited by HolyCow; 17th August 2013 at 17:33. Reason: lousy spelling and I wanted jpeg on page.
This can be done two ways
If it is done bad,there will be no return.Leave it this way IMHO
Originally Posted by igorRIJEKA
This can be done two ways
If it is done bad,there will be no return.Leave it this way IMHO
I thought there where people related to, or who subscribe to this forum who could do an excellent job of reluming. I have contacted somebody who is quoted as being first class but no reply just yet.
The debate on whether to or not has been superceded to a large extent. The watch is not capable of doing the job it was designed to do. There are many examples now of works of art, fresco's, ceilings and all being seen for the first time as they where intended. In the wider world the issue of desecration by restoration is a fast disapearing concept which was largely championed by academics in need of a job.
If my watch was a vintage aston martin, It would be completely acceptable for an ilegible dial to be repaired, for rusty chrome to be restored and worn and split upholstry to be replaced and in twenty or thirty years time when i give it to my son, it won't matter one bit if it was relumed properly today.
What does IMHO mean?
Steve
What will happen if you are not 100% satisfied?
IMHO- In My Humble Opinion
My thoughts are also..... Please don't.....
Unless you can source a spare dial then it's not worth the risk ...
Cheers..
Jase
I agree with you - I see no reason why a watch should not be restored to new condition. One of the reasons I buy watches like this second hand is that they can no longer be bought new. To restore their functionality, sometimes it is necessary to replace faded or non-luninous hands, gaskets, crystals and so on. It seems to me that originality is vastly overrated particularly if the watch looks like it has been kept in a barn or dragged through a hedge backward. However, I guess the thing is that if one is forced to resell then the watch appears to be less attractive to collectors. But I think there are two considerations: one that it's not the collector who will be wearing the watch when it is in my possession and two: that collectors may just be more vocal when expressing their disapproval for restoration than others might be expressing their approval. At any rate one can always keep the original components and include them in a future sale so that a collector can restore the watch to 'original' condition if they choose.
Congratulations on your watch, it looks like a nice example and I hope it brings you pleasure...
It will be incredibly difficult to get the lume on the dial correct by hand, the lume would have been printed on originally and reluming by hand won't result in proper sharp rectangular plots. This link might be of interest although I don't know if the results are good or not:
http://www.chronocentric.com/forums/...=read;id=18402
If it was me, I would leave the dial as it is, with the original but not working lume. Aren't the relumed hands enough for you to be able to tell the time at night? I'd actually get the hands relumed properly, they don't look particularly good. I use James, his username is dreamboat10
"A man of little significance"
I'm less than 100% satisfied now!What will happen if you are not 100% satisfied?
IMHO- In My Humble Opinion
The hands are useless. They appear to have been painted with a not very convincing lume
James can sort that out for you with proper lume, which should match the colour of the dial markers in daylight but which will light up the room at night. Bear in mind if you have the dial redone by someone doing it by hand it's not going to look good, but it all depends if it's more important you can see the hour markers at night than not want to look at your dial in daylight.The hands are useless. They appear to have been painted with a not very convincing lume
"A man of little significance"
My watch brings me much pleasure and it will continue to do so until I pass it on to one of my sons. He dosn't know who he is yet but my hint to him is that when His grandmother died recently he spent most of his inheritence on a vintage gold cased Omega. Not many people would notice his watch, but it is the ones who do that matter.
Thank you for your sage words.
Steve
I think the OP needs to revise his expectations slightly. Personally I would endorse the decision made by the firm who worked on this as being the correct one.
I`ve recently restored a Speedmaster 4.5 with the same Lemania movement. I ended up repainting and reluming the hands to keep the cost of the job down (the movement had cost a LOT of money to fix) and it was a very tricky job to do. Not easy to get right and extremely difficult to match the lume to an aged dial. I settled for getting the hands to look similar to new hands and I think this was the right decision. Sure, the lume on the hands is far brighter (in the dark) than the dial, but you have to remember the watch is old!
First thing anyone has to consider when removing hands from a chronograph is the risk of damage, particularly to the chrono hand because it's fitted tightly. Even following correct techniques it can happen; the centre pipe can pull loose and the hand then needs straightening and possibly gluing to fix. The paint will crack and need refinishing.......the customer must be on board with this and willing to accept the risk. If a new hands are available, that's the best option, but if not it's a case of patching up and repainting the originals. If the watch needs service this risk has to be taken; thankfully in many cases the hands come on and off OK, but there will always be examples where they don`t.
As for reluming the dial, it won`t be easy. Dreamboat 10 (James) is probably the top man on TZ for this work. However, provided the lume looks OK in daylight and has aged evenly, I wouldn`t even think about touching it. Unless the hands are really badly done I would leave well alone.....to claim that the watch doesn`t fullfil it's original function is crazy; it's not unusual for the lume on the hands and dial to age/look different. Personally, I couldn`t care whether the lume 'works' or not in the dark, I don`t need this from a watch and I doubt that many people do if they're honest.
Provided it looks OK in daylight I really wouldn`t worry. The alternative is to throw money at it, get the dial refinished and the hands relumed, after finding someone who's happy enough to take on the risk of dismantling it. In some cases I`m happy to fully restore a watch, with a refinished dial and new/replated/relumed hands because I know the end result will be a huge improvement and is the right way forward. When it comes to old sports watches it's a different ballgame.......I wouldn`t touch this one. Whoever works on this could fall victim to 'pass the parcel' syndrome, which applies to watch work; whoever touched it last cops the blame for ALL subsequent problems!.
Hope this gives the OP a slightly different perspective on his watch.......somehow I fear it won`t because he's probably chasing a nostalgic dream and subconsciously trying to buy the watch in 1974........IMO!
Paul
Last edited by walkerwek1958; 19th August 2013 at 18:44.
I had one of these almost 30yrs ago, and to be honest, the lume was not much cop even then ! It's not an out-doors night-time kind of watch anyway, I'd be inclined to keep it as it; it's a beautiful example... IMHO ;-)
Thanks for your considered reply. Whilst I respect the decision of the firm not to re-apply the batons, the reluming of the hands is not correct or well executed with visible brush marks being evident and being weak. There are other issues which could appear as nit-picking, I could mention those also but it would then seem as if I was seeking to ‘unfairly’ assert that the firm is not always right!
I paid just under £1000 for my watches restoration and would have happily paid more than that to have had it restored ‘fully’ if that had meant having to have a reprinted dial, I would have done so but that facility was not offered though I expressed a desire to restore the watches luminosity. Matching the lume to a dial is not an issue in this instance as the dial was and is flawlessly perfect.
In terms of replacement hands, I have had three replaced by a very capable company. I was on board for no risk as I was paying for and expected a flawless execution of their work. As it is now, I have approached Dreamboat 10 (James) and have dispatched my timepiece to him. He has said he will examine the watch and we will have a chat as to where to go with it. I’m sure he will make me aware of any ‘risks’.
If because of my willingness to restore the watches function there is a problem then I will have to return it to the manufacturers to have it made good.
I am not in pursuit of some gauche enterprise here but am doing what has become routine elsewhere in the wider world.
I am not crazy for wanting to restore the watches function and the luminosity is important to me for very practical reasons. If it was as unimportant as you state, then why has it been and is such a feature of watches. ‘Personally’ you could not care less whether lume works or not and doubt many people could if they were honest.
Well, for one this watch owner does care whether it is legible in the dark or low light conditions and elsewhere and I’m sure that I am not on my own here! Which part of a restored car would you sacrifice to conservation correctness? The headlights, dashboard illumination, clear windows, readability of instruments.
Are you saying that a simple restoration is Ok because it is simple and moves the watch forward and is a huge improvement but the restoration of a ‘sports’ watch is less worthy because of the inherent risk involved. I’m confused!
Thank you for your different perspective and you don’t have to fear anything. I am very clear about what I want……… a watch that Ferdinand Alexander Porsche would have been proud of and wanted and approved of. Nothing nostalgic here, I’m not trying to buy my youth, or past but am trying to do the best for my watch in the present as it was intended to be.
What does IMO mean?
Steve
Cheers for that, it could be better though, what would Ferdinand say?
He'd tell you to go out and buy a new watch.
"A man of little significance"
He'd say sorry my inferior lume let you down, in the current context he'd hate to see his cars limping around cal at night beacuse the headlights had been allowed to degrade into candles because it was considered wrong to restore.
I think he would say. "Lass es behoben!"
Porsche not normally associated with inherent built in obsolesense or disposability, certainly not at this vintage!
Last edited by HolyCow; 19th August 2013 at 22:29.
If I had an old, collectable car that was simply mellowing and showing reasonable signs of its age I wouldn't touch a single nut or bolt.
And at what point would you say.. "Enough is enough, this is not sustainable" What would you do?, perpetually replace aged parts with like for like.(if possible) What would you do when those aged parts where no longer available?
It depends on whether you are talking about a rare classic, or common also. If it is rare you have a responsibilty which is beyond your ownership to deliver that vehicle forward in the best condition possible. If not, sell it, move over and let somebody else take care of a living history.
If your talking about a common classic, their only common until lots of people agree not to touch a single nut or bolt. All of those vehicles from two decades ago have become cherished and cared for nowadays fourtunatley.
I have over thirty years experience in building conservation and restoration. I am well versed in the dictates and convention of both diciplines.
Your argument hold very little water with me I'm afraid. There are two laws governing the application of those diciplines which are international standards accross all areas where these two are excersised. You tell me what they are and I might take you more seriously!
There is very little to divide your attitiude from the very causes of the demise in exisitence of many historic cherished items. It's almost chuck-away.
I love nothing more than to see an Alvis T120, worn and mellow driven and in original condition and owned by the same gent for all it's life. It's also reassuring to look in to the bonnet and see its newly rebuilt engine and wiring loom etc.
Steve
Steve
I dont think people are taking issue that you should want to have a fully functional watch that meets your expectations, I think thats reasonable, I think Im right in saying that the risk that you could face with the process going wrong and not looking nice isnt worth it to most, we are on the most part collectors of watches, you can easily get the battons relumed to glow like a torch, to get it done well enough not not to detract from the watch as a nice vintage watch is another matter.
Cheers..
Jase
Sorry to reply again. I have seen some hand done reluming which is only slightly raised and is planted exactly within markers and boundaries and geometricaly correct.
In my industry, two people can produce very different results for the same peice of work, appallingly so sometimes. I would always choose the better!
My decision is a a simple but available upgrade to Ve 2.0 lume if you like.
Steve
Thanks for all that. It certainley has been an education this watch malarky...... but a pleasure. It'l be fun posting pics of the finished peice here!
I understand more the inherant balance of looks and the threat or danger of damage to my timepeice, H'mmmm
Thanks, steve.
IMO is a well-used abbreviation for 'in my opinion'.
We all have opinions and a few (including mine) have been expressed emphatically. Most of the comments on this thread are informed opinions from folks who have experience with old watches and I think some valid points have been raised.
Having also restored classic cars in the past I can empathise with some of the OP's analogies.....even though I don`t agree with him.
Each to his own.......I hope this ends well for the OP and he isn`t disappointed.
Paul
Thanks for that...
The trouble is there seems to be a mix-up here between 'personal' preferences thinly disguised as 'emphatic' right and wrongs. This defies logic and muddies true intellectual input and therefore manifests itself as bias.
I'm not going to strip or polish the PVD, or change the colour of it. I'm not even going to change the strap, the hands, or the watches appearence. The Lume will be white as nature intended and will glow at night so I can tell the time without a torch, without looking at an alarm clock, without putting the bedside light on, without asking my wife who may be wearing her Armani or not, or asking a stranger when out, without, without, without, without...
You can't truly empaphise and disagree by the way. Basic philosophy!
FA Porsche made his cars to be driven, not to be looked at and if there where better bulbs he would say, "Nicht zu fahren in der Dunkelheit, ändern Sie die Zwiebeln!"
I am aware that I am the custodian of a not unimportant timepeice, "Each to he's own" Thank you, I know that I will not be dissapointed
Steve
I wish you well in your quest Steve, and look forward to seeing the results.
Not that I wish to get into a keyboard tit for tat malarky (I can't anyway, as I'm on my phone!),
but you did ask for peoples thoughts, and they were offered.
I think it is possible to empathise and disagree.....but I don`t intend debating semantics any longer.
As for the watch.... you've paid almost £1000, which is a hell of a lot; unless it was in very bad condition prior to the work I think it's fair to say you've been ripped off. You're not satisfied so you'll spend more money and maybe you still won`t be satisfied. As for the watch being 'not unimportant', that's open to debate. You're clearly hooked on it but I`m sure it wouldn`t appeal to a lot of folks. The Porsche connection doesn`t make it particularly special to most people. As for the movement, it definitely wasn`t Lemania's finest and there are a couple of design weaknesses owing to the use of plastic components. I know this because I've just restored one.....yes, that's first-hand experience not heresay or conjecture.
You asked for advice and opinions and that's what you got; you've clearly taken offence at what's been posted and replied with a few valid points interspersed with a load of drivel.
Strange attitude......this is supposed to be a watch forum after all.
Paul
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&p...0.1.1%26disp%3
The watch invoice is shown enclosed, perhaps you ought to contact Orfina and tell them.......... "I think it's fair to say you have been ripped off"?
I'm very satisfied with my watch but my search for refinement is in my nature and that is why I am very good at my day job. Attitudes like yours are fewer thankfully.
I'm sure the watch is not that important but I'm sure it could be if persons were to take note of your throwaway comments regarding its construction. Perhaps in fifty years the 'plastic' parts will have all worn out and then its
appeal will not be so questionable to you and others so it seems as its rarity increases to a suitable degree.
The watch has appeal wider than Porsche aficionados because it is called 'Watch No1' and was designed by Porche in house rather than out of house badge engineered withshavers, toasters and cutlery. (you should do your homework)
Rather than being a weakness, the use of 'nylon' for some of the parts was inovative and happened ata atime when calibers where constructed of all manner of materials including grp.
Far from being a sports style watch as you call it, the movement and watch whether 'Bund', or 'civil' were deemed to have a superlative resisitance to shock, with remarkable service intervals and superlative chrono performance up to extreme 'G' which is why they were up until relativeley recently standard issue to the Luftwaffe and nato forces. The movement has been used extesiveley also in the worlds finest chronos, including Omega.
For a person who has just 'restored' this movement, you seem to have a selective amnesia about this history.
At the end of the day, I only want to improve the watches luminosity. I have your comments that this is not an important feature of a watch and would be suprisesd if anybody honestly thought so. To persons warning of ther dangers of missaplied lume and damaged hands and pivots.
My attitude is not strange when asking for advice but I do resent being told that something is definatley wrong when it is just personal bias.
I'm the one talking drivel, when I say I want to restore this original feature and you say it does not matter if it is not there because nobody uses it any way?
If the risk of damage can be avoided and if the batons and hands look original in daylight can you tell me why I should not proceed?
Thanks, steve.
And I appreciate this input massively, though it may seem otherwise
My attitude is not strange when asking for advice but I do resent being told that something is definatley wrong when it may be personal bias.
Thanks, steve
Steve, it is a lovely watch and I can kind of understand why your choice is to 'refurbish' back as close to new as possible - not a popular choice on here, but as you point out - that is what you have chosen!
I think you have been pointed in the right direction for one of the best relume specialists in James - if he can't get it right it is doubtful anyone could - it will be interesting to hear what he says...
It may be of help to know that there are a couple of spare dials for this model on ebay at the mo - this one being the better of the two:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PORSCHE-DE...item43bec5687f
But the seller has another. Maybe worth £100 investment to use as a test piece to see what can be achieved before bowling on in there with the dial currently installed? (I have no connection to either seller nor item.)
As for the suggestion above that the Lemania 5100 was 'not one of Lemania's finest' and suggesting design weakness due to the nylon parts - I know of plenty of Lemania 5100 fanatics and vintage watches that would suggest otherwise! There are a few 5100 fanciers on this forum, (yes, Sweets, Pascal and Andy111s - I am thinking of you!) - I count myself more of an admirer than a fanatic like them, but still take a little umbrage at that statement...
See this thread for example:
http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...highlight=show
I am sure that Eddie won't mind me linking to another forum, but Dave, (Sweets) has his own sub forum for Lemania over at the ATG Forums:
http://forum.atgvintagewatches.com/forumdisplay.php?f=5
And whilst a post there will probably return a lot of similar 'why would you' comments, it may be worth trying there for further advice?
All the best with whatever you do, I hope you stick with us and show the results...
Rob
Thanks for your detailed and thoughtful comments.
It will be an interesting chat with James after all of this.
I bought the better of the two dials last night, thanks for finding that link for me and it obviously gives me options and a little peace of mind.
When I sent the watch to Schifferle and Schifferle for a rebuild it was to add provanence to the watches already known history, to create a formal mark if you like in its history. I had the watch pressure tested here (passed) and it had a new crystal and a claimed service before.
Sending it back to Orfina was an expensive excercise for really very little, but you can see I had the watches welfare at heart, not my vanity. In the future, it will be my sons with a paper trail which already spans the globe in a compelling and credible journey so far.
I am guilty of using car analogies I know, If anything I have been guilty of sending a barn find Aston back to the manufacturers agents for a complete rebuild. Your absolutley right, not a popular move in some peoples eyes, but I'd like to think that were all pulling in the same direction generally. Concours, or in fine condition its nice that people are so passionate about timepeices.
Your links are brilliant, I'll have more time to go through them later on. In the meantime thanks for taking the time to adding so much feedback.
Best wishes
Steve
I'm leaving mine exactly as it is, warts an all (well, it may get a new crystal), but I'll be interested to see how yours turns out. Please post some photos once you've had the re-lume done.
Will do.I'm leaving mine exactly as it is, warts an all (well, it may get a new crystal), but I'll be interested to see how yours turns out. Please post some photos once you've had the re-lume done.
I am prepearing my watch for the next generation I suppose. Its a personal thing thats all. I have four sons and I know which one of them is going to end up with it. He dosent know yet but he spent some of his recent inheritance on a beautiful Omega Seamaster in 18ct Yellow Gold. He appreciates and loves vintage whether common or rare, cheap or expensive in all things like me. He likes original design and classic designs.
I didnt have to send it to Schifferle really but I wanted the watch to have a greater grounding for the future. I must say that I respect anybodys decision not to take this route and look after their timepeice how they seem fit.
I admire persons who own watches and any works of art and refuse to intefere with the process of time. I also admire people persons who restore to the ulitmate degree, but also those that tread the carefull middle gound.
Cheers , Steve
PS, nice watch by the way!
Phewwwww!!!
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