closing tag is in template navbar
timefactors watches



TZ-UK Fundraiser
Page 5 of 22 FirstFirst ... 3456715 ... LastLast
Results 201 to 250 of 1096

Thread: SMITHS SEAFIRE – PVD Instrument Watch

  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by swanbourne View Post
    There won't be a date. Not even maybe a date; just no date, ever.

    Eddie

    Keep it up guys, he's wavering I can tell.....

  2. #202
    Master SternG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Larissa, Greece
    Posts
    7,457
    Looks great. No larger than 38mm, pretty please.

  3. #203
    No date. Keep the vision pure.

  4. #204
    I really like this, prefer the original rendering without the green tip, bit of green in the nato would be good though....

    Looking forward to seeing how this progresses...

  5. #205
    Master Wexford's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    1,580
    Like this very much and count me among the future owners.
    How about black DLC over PVD?
    I've got a DLC coated watch and it seems tougher than PVD?

    * dons tin helmet *

  6. #206
    Grand Master Dave+63's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    East Sussex
    Posts
    15,914
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ DLC (diamond like carbon) is the coating applied by the PVD (physical vapour deposition) process.
    Last edited by Dave+63; 18th August 2013 at 11:01.

  7. #207
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Franconia
    Posts
    480
    Quote Originally Posted by swanbourne View Post
    There won't be a date. Not even maybe a date; just no date, ever.

    Eddie
    Excellent news

  8. #208
    Administrator swanbourne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Sheffield, England
    Posts
    47,490
    My understanding is that DLC is a surface coating whereas PVD bonds with the substrate on a molecular level.

    Eddie
    Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".

  9. #209
    Master Wexford's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    1,580
    So, PVD is a coating method and DLC is a coating material.
    A DLC PVD coated watch seems the most scratch resistant.
    My experience bears this out.

    http://www.messinajewelers.com/blog/...es-pvd-or-dlc/

  10. #210
    Grand Master AlphaOmega's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Trinovantum
    Posts
    11,313
    Quote Originally Posted by swanbourne View Post
    My understanding is that DLC is a surface coating whereas PVD bonds with the substrate on a molecular level.

    Eddie
    I think there are a couple of choices i.e. chemical or physical deposition on the watch (hence the initialisms CVD and PVD).

    I'm not positive but I thought DLC could be applied using either process.

  11. #211
    Grand Master dkpw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Edinburgh
    Posts
    10,802
    Any thoughts from Eddie or Chris on the lugs?
    Fixed lug bars or not? Pierced or not?

    I love the design and of the options shown I think the first is my favourite - great stuff!
    David
    Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations

  12. #212
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Manila, Philippines
    Posts
    85
    a buddy sent me an email about it and thought it was already in production!
    great effort on the rendering... hope this gets made...
    in the minority here but the Everest is the smallest i have now at 40mm (the length of 49mm is just right for my 7.75inch wrist too!).
    so i would definitely buy this if it had specs of the Everest... black, i think would make it look smaller too (but that's just a personal opinion). so perhaps slightly bigger than the PRS25... say 41mm and 50 in length? pilot watches are / were "bigger" anyways (yeah even before the "big watch fad")...
    but again, these are just my thoughts and would again be in the minority!
    congrats in advance to another sure winner!!!!

  13. #213
    On PVD and DLC, I owned a LW with a DLC coating and it had scratches (barely noticeable), even some áreas where the coating was gone and the bare steel was visible.

    What I want to convey is that it seems crítical to edúcate people on the limits of DLC and PVD: you are going to scratch the watch, and DLC reduces the impact of knocks and the visibility of scratches....but does not eliminate 100% of them....

  14. #214
    Master Harry Tuttle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Ayrshire
    Posts
    1,627
    Quote Originally Posted by angeche View Post
    On PVD and DLC, I owned a LW with a DLC coating and it had scratches (barely noticeable), even some áreas where the coating was gone and the bare steel was visible.

    What I want to convey is that it seems crítical to edúcate people on the limits of DLC and PVD: you are going to scratch the watch, and DLC reduces the impact of knocks and the visibility of scratches....but does not eliminate 100% of them....
    I agree, I've got a Heuer 510.501 which has a PVD finish which has knocks and some wear which is possibly more noticeable than on a steel watch and less easy to repair. It also appears faded so that it is not as dark as a black leather strap. In the camera world there are two different finishes for M rangefinders - some form of PVD and black paint. The black paint models are more highly prized aesthetically as they 'brass' where the paint wears on the edges of the camera and the brass shows through. It's a more sympathetic effect, however the base material is brass rather than steel.

  15. #215
    Craftsman _jonte's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    455
    What about a ceramic case? From my experience it does not have to be that much more expensive than steel.

  16. #216
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Vale of Glamorgan
    Posts
    864
    I am yet to be convinced to by a 'steath' watch but I am loving the green and black combo. Auto would be my preference!

    Maybe this will be my first purchase...

  17. #217
    Craftsman GavinD's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Plymouth, UK
    Posts
    333
    I keep coming back to this thread. The more I look at the watch the more I like it. I'd be in the quartz camp on this one. Perfect grab and go do it all watch.

  18. #218
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Sussex
    Posts
    400
    Probably the best looking PVD watch I have seen, and the only one to make me want to own it. So many PVD offerings tend towards being chunky and lose any 'stealth' as a result. Black does not seem to be slimming in watches in my view. The green lettering goes well with the black and is a refreshing change from the usual reds and oranges. If the second hand is to be tipped then co for the green - any other colour makes the clean design look busy IMO. If we want a more aircraft look what about a green/white chequerboard second hand? It's just my view but is the hour hand a little short? I would like to see it graze the trailing edge of the two digit numbers. 38/39 mm sounds perfect to me but I don't have any thing in my watch box over 40mm - the 68 may change that however.

    John

  19. #219
    Master
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    U.S.A.
    Posts
    1,126
    Quote Originally Posted by chrisparker View Post
    I've always liked the simplicity of cockpit instrument panels, and the watches inspired by them.

    As Smiths instruments were actually used in some of our most iconic aircraft, I thought that there should be a Smiths watch to suit and fortunately Eddie agrees.

    So I present the Smiths Seafire, inspired by Smiths Dials used in the famous Spitfire* and Seafire planes.





    Further information about the plane:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermarine_Seafire

    *The Spitfire trademark is not available.

    There are no further details as yet, so let the discussion commence – what spec would you like from a watch of this style?
    I personally like how you first started off with this one, Chris, as I think the aesthetics are very nice and very clean, and very simple in the excellent sense and meaning of that.

    The only cosmetic tweeks I might offer would be to delete the "100M AUTO" below "SEAFIRE", or at least the "AUTO" part of that, and relegate such information to the caseback, and, for some reason, I think a plain placcard style counterbalance to the second hand like the Seafire's original oxygen gauges you show might look a bit better.

    Perhaps if I was offered the chance to choose the colour of the "SEAFIRE" font myself, I might have gone with a golden hued orange to it that would, in the context of the very nicely done white-on-black theme of the dial, remind me of the last glimmer of the sun's light at the fall of the starry night at altitude, something I would guess thousands of British aviators saw during WWII as they departed their bases in England and Scotland on the many night missions they flew against the Nazis.

    The non-ubiquitously coloured but apparently original Seafire instrument board congruent dark green ("British Racing Green"[?]) fonted "SEAFIRE" certainly looks OK, though, if that's what most prefer, but it's maybe a bit less poetic(?), and technically even a bit "colourically" discordant with the last syllable of the watch's name "Sea-FIRE" (though I don't think anybody will notice -- or care much if they do).

    Looks Great

    Quote Originally Posted by TaketheCannoli View Post
    I said earlier that I think manual wind is perfect but I'd be very happy with quartz and considering the PRS-10 is now discontinued I think this Smiths is its ideal replacement in the Platts legacy.

    David
    I think designing the technical specifications and case construction of this watch to fill in for the amazing VFM Eddie built into the now discontinued Precista version of the PRS-10 is a great idea. By my lights, that would mean using a very tough and nicely cost effective classic military aviation evolved domed and deep-seated "armoured" steel tension ring secured acrylic crystal two-piece screwback 316L stainless steel case design; maybe a good but economical and batteryless Ciitizen (Miyota sourced?) "Eco-Drive" light-powered quartz movement; and a sturdy screwdown crown unit like the late PRS-10's but with the instrument board clock style knurling treatment chosen for this one.

    However I might personally wish it would, though, I don't know if going that way with this "Seafire" project would comport well with market demand. I say that because, as bizarre as it struck me when I first read it, a member here said at the time that the just departed PRS-10 had been a slow seller for Timefactors, and that is why it had been discontinued.

    Also, some of the black finishes available for stainless steel have technical downsides I don't think Eddie is likely to find acceptable so I'm guessing will want to go with the best of these, and I would fully agree if the black finsh is a prerequisite for this project. However, given that probably somewhat expensive black finish is pretty much there only for its instrument clock-like and maybe "that looks cool" cosmetic effect, I think that in itself alone is likely going to start lifting this watch out of the "Shockingly High VFM" category at least I thought the PRS-10 so attractively occupied.

    I do personally like TTC'S (David's) idea of it taking up the PRS-10's now blank spot though
    Last edited by Rollon; 19th August 2013 at 09:57. Reason: Added a word I neglected to include originally ["colourically"].

  20. #220
    Grand Master seikopath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    N/A
    Posts
    29,758
    The PVD finish on the PRS4/11 was just fine IMHO. Regarding size , please don't make it too big , there are enough comedy wrist clocks on the market . 39.5mm max .
    Good luck everybody. Have a good one.

  21. #221
    Administrator swanbourne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Sheffield, England
    Posts
    47,490
    Well it won't be the Bulova P102 movement :-(

    Dear Mr. Eddie,

    Long time. Thank you for email.
    I'm grateful that you are using our 9015 on your watches !

    Regarding your request, we are afraid that movement is not for sale,
    it's only for internal use.
    We hope your understanding.

    By the way, do you have plan to come to Hong Kong watch fair this year ? I
    want to introduce our representative in charge of European market.

    Thanks & best regards,
    Kawato
    Eddie
    Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".

  22. #222
    Been reading with interest and I love it. However I wouldn't buy it at 38mm. I only have one 38mm watch and I never wear it as it's so small! 40mm would be fine

  23. #223
    Master
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Bedfordshire
    Posts
    1,051
    Quote Originally Posted by seikopath View Post
    The PVD finish on the PRS4/11 was just fine IMHO. Regarding size , please don't make it too big , there are enough comedy wrist clocks on the market . 39.5mm max .
    Comedy wrist clock is my new favourite watch term.

    Really hoping this watch won't be one.

  24. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by swanbourne View Post
    Well it won't be the Bulova P102 movement :-(



    Eddie
    So WILL you be going to Hong Kong to meet the European rep? Seems like a slightly cockeyed plan unless you fancy a holiday at the same time :-)

    Go with the 2804, you know you want to!

    EDIT: I've just realised that with the 2804 you the 'Auto' on the dial would be superfluous, and so, since the dial is perfection as is, go with the 9015, you know you want to :-)

    I keep coming back to this thread. I've been hovering over the buy button of a Techne, recently, but this design just seems so much more classy
    Last edited by holio cornolio; 19th August 2013 at 12:52.

  25. #225
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Franconia
    Posts
    480
    sorry, please delete
    Last edited by bmwrover; 19th August 2013 at 14:40.

  26. #226
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Franconia
    Posts
    480
    Quote Originally Posted by gamingdave View Post
    I'm liking it a lot, though definitely in the clean second hand camp, I don't think the green is needed at all. Personally think it would look better without the outer white track.

    Yes please, thats the one, and size should be bigger than 38, more like 40mm + please. Quarz.
    Last edited by bmwrover; 19th August 2013 at 14:43.

  27. #227
    Grand Master snowman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Hampshire
    Posts
    14,534
    Quote Originally Posted by bmwrover View Post
    Yes please, thats the one, and size should be bigger than 38, more like 40mm + please. Quarz.
    Yes, I've come round to the view that this is the one (although I could live with a red tipped second hand ) as well.

    The lack of the outer track is small but works much better to my eye.

    Anything but automatic

    M
    Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?

  28. #228
    Grand Master Glamdring's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Doncaster, UK
    Posts
    16,651
    It's a tool watch. Having an outer track adds to its usability, as I see it.

  29. #229
    Grand Master snowman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Hampshire
    Posts
    14,534
    Quote Originally Posted by Glamdring View Post
    It's a tool watch. Having an outer track adds to its usability, as I see it.
    I may have used the wrong term, I just meant the outer white circle around the minute markers, which earlier renders had but this one lacks.

    M
    Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?

  30. #230
    Master
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Plymouth, UK
    Posts
    1,391
    Quote Originally Posted by swanbourne View Post
    Well it won't be the Bulova P102 movement :-(



    Eddie
    There could be poor battery performance with that movement, I picked up a Bulova Precisionist 15 months ago whilst on holiday and just noticed the battery has died.

  31. #231
    Master Cirrus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    North Wales
    Posts
    5,367
    Quote Originally Posted by alphajet View Post
    There could be poor battery performance with that movement, I picked up a Bulova Precisionist 15 months ago whilst on holiday and just noticed the battery has died.
    I bought one recently and first thing I did was put a new battery in it. Second thing I did was spend about 2 hours trying to get the snap-back back on...

  32. #232
    Administrator swanbourne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Sheffield, England
    Posts
    47,490
    Quote Originally Posted by alphajet View Post
    There could be poor battery performance with that movement, I picked up a Bulova Precisionist 15 months ago whilst on holiday and just noticed the battery has died.
    They reckon 2 years from a battery which would power a regular quartz watch for 10 years.

    Eddie
    Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".

  33. #233
    Master Cirrus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    North Wales
    Posts
    5,367
    Quote Originally Posted by swanbourne View Post
    They reckon 2 years from a battery which would power a regular quartz watch for 10 years.

    Eddie
    I had it in mind it was longer than that... are there variances between models?

  34. #234
    Master SeanST150's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Milton Keynes
    Posts
    2,776
    Quote Originally Posted by snowman View Post
    although I could live with a red tipped second hand
    Green tip or no tip for me!

  35. #235
    Administrator swanbourne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Sheffield, England
    Posts
    47,490
    Quote Originally Posted by Cirrus View Post
    I had it in mind it was longer than that... are there variances between models?
    I wouldn't think so, not if they have the same movement.

    Eddie
    Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".

  36. #236
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    25,353
    Blog Entries
    26
    Do Citizen/Miyota sell Ecodrives outside of the group?

  37. #237
    Grand Master
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    hull
    Posts
    13,427
    Quote Originally Posted by markrlondon View Post
    Do Citizen/Miyota sell Ecodrives outside of the group?
    an eco drive would be excellent, bit i would think the dial would have to change a lot to allow light to penetrate.
    ktmog6uk
    marchingontogether!



  38. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by markrlondon View Post
    Do Citizen/Miyota sell Ecodrives outside of the group?
    Ooh no - the dial could never look right. Citizen are good at disguising the solar cells, but they're not invisible.

  39. #239
    Grand Master Glamdring's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Doncaster, UK
    Posts
    16,651
    What about the ten-year lithium Ronda as used in the PRS 18?

  40. #240
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    25,353
    Blog Entries
    26
    Quote Originally Posted by ktmog6uk View Post
    an eco drive would be excellent, bit i would think the dial would have to change a lot to allow light to penetrate.
    Quote Originally Posted by tribe125 View Post
    Ooh no - the dial could never look right. Citizen are good at disguising the solar cells, but they're not invisible.
    Interesting... Some Ecodrives look to me to be completely unrecognisable as such: You would never (well I would never) know that they had solar cells underneath the outer dial surface.

  41. #241
    Master trisdg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    London
    Posts
    1,883
    Quote Originally Posted by Glamdring View Post
    What about the ten-year lithium Ronda as used in the PRS 18?
    If this project does end up with a quartz movement, that's what I'd be hoping for.

  42. #242
    Grand Master snowman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Hampshire
    Posts
    14,534
    Quote Originally Posted by markrlondon View Post
    Interesting... Some Ecodrives look to me to be completely unrecognisable as such: You would never (well I would never) know that they had solar cells underneath the outer dial surface.
    I'd agree. They're a feature on my dive watch, but I can't see them on my Skyhawk although that's quite 'techy', but I've some traditional dress watches which were impossible for me to detect the cells on.

    M.
    Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?

  43. #243
    Master aldfort's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Cardiff
    Posts
    9,254
    I just want one, Quartz would be lovely but auto will be OK too.

    As far as colour goes the bit of red takes away rather than adds IMHO so just black and white and green works best.

  44. #244
    Administrator swanbourne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Sheffield, England
    Posts
    47,490
    I see no reason why the Miyota 9015 wouldn't work for this one.

    Eddie
    Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".

  45. #245
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    25,353
    Blog Entries
    26
    Quote Originally Posted by swanbourne View Post
    I see no reason why the Miyota 9015 wouldn't work for this one.
    That would be ideal in my opinion for the mechanical version. :-)

  46. #246
    Master
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    U.S.A.
    Posts
    1,126
    Quote Originally Posted by Glamdring View Post
    What about the ten-year lithium Ronda as used in the PRS 18?
    ^ I'd think the Rhonda 715L is at the very least probably the much more practical choice in quartz movements considering that it is a long standing TF standard given its use, according to Ron Jr's "PRS Virtual Museum" I just double-checked, in the Precista PRS-18 and PRS-17 divers, the just departed upgraded Precista version of the PRS-10, and the earlier Broadarrow PRS-3 and PRS-4 RN style divers.

    I've never personally had a watch with that specific movement to my knowledge or memory but I have had long life lithium quartz powered watches before and don't recall a movement problem with any of them. I've also never myself read anything negative that I can recall about the Rhonda 715L long-life lithium quartz movement itself other than one member here complaining his ran a bit slow, as in about one second per week, and apparently, as it apparently is with most quartz movements manufactured now, the design did not allow that to be adjusted out, IIRC. I have read the general precaution to never allow a lithium battery to get wet lest it might catastrophically burst, but I've never personally heard of a leaky lithium powered quartz dive watch or whatever letting its lunch go like that. I also still regret that I hadn't bought one of the Precista 10s before they (for me unexpectedly) disappeared.


    Quote Originally Posted by ktmog6uk View Post
    an eco drive would be excellent, bit i would think the dial would have to change a lot to allow light to penetrate.
    Quote Originally Posted by tribe125 View Post
    Ooh no - the dial could never look right. Citizen are good at disguising the solar cells, but they're not invisible.
    Quote Originally Posted by markrlondon View Post
    Interesting... Some Ecodrives look to me to be completely unrecognisable as such: You would never (well I would never) know that they had solar cells underneath the outer dial surface.
    I'd agree with Mark (ML) on that, and it was one of the reasons I mentioned in a previous post above that I thought an Eco-Drive quartz mov't might work for this one (I like the batteryless-ness of it to be honest). I've always had good luck with the Eco-Drive but my experience with them is limited to one I bought and gave as a present to a relative (and still maintain for her when it needs it -- after a number of years, I've only had to charge it up and reset the time after she left it in her drawer too long and complained it wouldn't run and/or the time was wrong after it restarted when she tried to wear it again) and a nicely inexpensive (about 105 GBP here w/ no VAT & no tax) BN00001-04H Citizen 300M Professional Eco-Drive Diver I bought much more recently after I read the MOD had issued it.

    The problem is, though, that then I subsequently read MOD had experienced problems with the Citizens they had issued and, just a day or so ago, a couple good forum members here alerted me to why --- MOD apparently found that the Eco-Drive divers left in storage for mission specific issue would power down from lack of light and then a certain percentage of them would apparently experience power cell deterioration for some reason. I wasn't expecting that latter part and had been assuming any problems MOD might be experiencing with the Eco-Drive movements themselves would have been logistically keeping them lit up and fully charged for per-mission issue, something that wouldn't likely seriously effect iether individual issue or individual ownership. Hearing that an Eco-Drive's power cell might deteriorate if left in a drawer, though, is, obviously, not something I nor likely anybody owning one of these would want to hear. Mine has run fine for me, but, you know.

    Based on that, I'd like to withdraw my own suggestion of an Eco-Drive movement for this Seafire project until more can be learned of it. Maybe the Seiko "Solar" movements are better and available, I don't know.

    To probably best fall back to my own normal personally preferenced mechanical default at this point to try to make a [good] suggestion for a movement of choice, does Miyota make a non-auto hand wind version in iether the 8215 or the 9015 series of movements? I think I'd myself see one of the standard automatic versions of these sturdy, well proved, apparently -- as in hopefully -- still relatively inexpensive, and apparently -- as in hopefully -- still relatively very available (i.e. compared to their respective ETA counterpart) Miyotas the better choice for this particular watch, but a lot, and perhaps a majority, of members posting want a manual wind mechanical movement if the Seafire isn't a quartz.

    Quote Originally Posted by swanbourne View Post
    I see no reason why the Miyota 9015 wouldn't work for this one.

    Eddie
    Good. I wish I'd read this before I wrote all of that I did just above though
    Last edited by Rollon; 20th August 2013 at 19:37.

  47. #247
    Master
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Bedfordshire
    Posts
    1,051
    Quote Originally Posted by swanbourne View Post
    I see no reason why the Miyota 9015 wouldn't work for this one.

    Eddie
    That would be great. But a quartz might be greater...
    If there was only one version and it was an auto - I'll buy it but if there are two versions and one is a quartz, I'll buy the quartz.

  48. #248
    Master SternG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Larissa, Greece
    Posts
    7,457
    Quote Originally Posted by swanbourne View Post
    I see no reason why the Miyota 9015 wouldn't work for this one.

    Eddie

    It would. Also, if it's 38mm or less, well, that's my next TF piece right there. I know, what's a millimetre or two between friends , but still, this one needs to be a bit on the small side.

  49. #249
    38mm, Miyota auto, no date...?
    Erm, yes please

  50. #250
    This gets better and better. Must ... learn ... patience ...

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Do Not Sell My Personal Information