Reply With QuoteGood find Rob . Anyone care to guess what the finishing price will be ? I'll go for 4600. He's got some nice other items as well , like the kontikis. Plus its always nice to find a wis that runs a T4 .
I had to double take this when it popped up in one of my eBay saved searches...
WWII Leg less Fighter Ace Douglas Baders watch and dog tag:
(Pic borrowed from listing.)
Some pretty impressive stuff crops up on eBay when you least expect it. Any predictions on where this'll go (literally)? Museum piece I'd have thought? Be nice if it stayed in the UK.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DOUGLAS-BA...-/141033311169
(No affiliation to watch or seller - although I seem to recall he is a member here... (One of the good guys!) If so GLWTS!)
Rob
Last edited by AIDM; 10th August 2013 at 01:57.
Good find Rob . Anyone care to guess what the finishing price will be ? I'll go for 4600. He's got some nice other items as well , like the kontikis. Plus its always nice to find a wis that runs a T4 .
Good luck everybody. Have a good one.
Cool find, will be following this one for sure.
I think I recognise that username too, pretty sure that they are a member here.
"Provenance was checked by Sotherby's and no red flags were raised during or after the auction on any of the Douglas Bader items".
This is the biggy for me, not really interested in what was not found, but what actual Provenance it has I can find nothing on that listing that proves it was his watch.
Last edited by Fords; 10th August 2013 at 08:47.
A great bit of kit lets hope that it stays in the UK some were we can all enjoy looking at it........
Very interesting. My guess... £24,000
Gray
I agree. Big ticket on this one.Originally Posted by gray
Hello. Yes its is party my watch, but only partly unfortunately. I did want to own it outright but couldn't put a price on it.
Cheers Mick
I suppose with anything like this there needs to be some level of faith, (with a hefty dose of 'want to believe')... It does appear to originate from this A R Dunn chap who was a steward in the Officers Mess, with a direct line through Sotheby's to the current seller - I think I buy it and I'm a born sceptic, (although maybe not quite as bad as you Fords!)... ;)
Without a signed and witnessed statement from the original owner there is always going to be some doubt - and when you're passing a gift to your 'batman' and on down to a lad who enjoys your war stories, (going by the newspaper article) you don't provide that kind of provenance, why would you? Ultimately you pays your money you makes your choice.
The Sotheby's cataolgue from '99 estimates at £600-900 - no idea what the hammer price was, but still that is a big leap! I say best of luck to him - I hope he joins in this thread.
I will be watching with interest also.
Rob
**Edit: Michael posted above while I was typing - best of luck mate, hope it goes mental!**
Last edited by AIDM; 10th August 2013 at 10:18. Reason: Seller posted... Then sp Southeby's to help those with sp OCD :)
Wow.
Looks like it was a very nice watch in its prime; just my sort of thing. Which manufacturer would have made it? If I could afford it I'd probably have it cleaned up a bit and fixed.
I must say I'm not 100% convinced it's authentic though.
Hi Fords.
I have looked long and hard for pictures of Douglas Bader wearing this watch but can not find one that without doubt is this watch, The Sotherby's consultant I spoke to said the vendors story was checked and other people I have spoken to have said the watch is of the correct period and identity disk looks fine. I didn't buy this watch until I was totally satisfied everything looked and sounded right, So all the pressure was on me for that. I wasn't just buying it outright for myself unfortunately but would love to own it. I don't want to make a fool of myself over this one, that is the last thing I want to do.
Any buyer can buy this watch and tag safe in the knowledge I'm not going to do a runner after the auction, if it is found to be anything other than I said the watch and tag can come back to me and I will gladly try to work something out with the other owners and buy it myself.
Value is a bit of a unknown at the moment but I am trying to get some funds together in case I need them.
Cheers Mick
Who are these Sotherby's?
I love my T4 seikopath, I think there are a few owners on the forum too.
Cheers Mick
It is an ATP made by Timor. Bear in mind it is 32mm diameter. Here's mine together with its younger relative - a WWW.
This was discussed on MWR the other week http://www.mwrforum.net/forums/showthread.php?p=193485
I loved mine too . 2.4 diesel caravelle with a Bilbo's weekender conversion . Long gone now , unfortunately . Good luck with the auction , I hope it all goes smoothly . Best wishes, D
Good luck everybody. Have a good one.
Cheers D, I use mine as a mobile man cave and my daily form of transport, no matter how hard I try a car just doesn't cut it any more. I was thinking of buying another to the wife's amusement, I think I might be going through some kind of mid life crisis with the little bits of customisation I am doing to it.
I'm enjoying it though.
Cheers Mick
I really do hope that this holds together for you, Provenance will Add £££ what you really need is pen to paper from all these people you have spoken too, they must be prepared to put their professional and well informed opinions down on paper.
I have just purchased an original stand alone Sketch from Ronnie Wood with 4 letters one from Ronnie and three from the gallery giving cast iron History and insurance valuation + a 2 year rolling valuation for as long as we own the sketch, in fact we had to wait for Ronnie's PR to organise this as the Sketch has no internet presence or pictures of it anywhere whatsoever it came right from his personal Sketchbook right into the hands of the framers.
Maybe it's just me being over the top but I would withdraw the auction and seek credible written proof before trying to sell, it's a lovely piece of history and I think a little extra effort is needed, it could put a couple of zero's on the end and everyone's smiling, the very best of luck to you.
Last edited by Fords; 10th August 2013 at 13:12.
I agree with Fords; an opinion in writing from Southerby's would add a lot.
Bader surely wouldn't have given away an issued watch. He only rejoined the RAF in October of '39 (he was previously cashiered in '33 before the ATP existed) and was shot down in August 1941 so he'd have been giving away a fairly new, state of the art, signed for wristwatch that didn't belong to him. More to the point, if he signed for it, the records will be on 'fiche at Kew or Northolt, so I might just dig out my Kew readers' card... In fact, thinking about it, RAF officers were strongly discouraged from fraternising with other ranks and so the sort of relationship that might involve giving a valuable watch seems a bit odd to me.
I'm not questioning the provenance per se, I have no reason to believe that the watch wasn't Bader's or that this chap hasn't held it since the forties. How it came into his possession, however, seems to throw up an anomaly or two...
On a more positive note, there will be existent records that will specify the watch that was issued to Douglas Bader, Kew will hold them, but Northolt may well hold the index to them. However, Northolt are incredibly helpful, if a bit slow. I suspect that an extract from the RAF records would trump anything an auction house could provide.
^^^^
This +1
But couldn't a letter be easily forged? How about colour photos a full write up and opinion printed in a glossy brochure/catalogue?
Oh wait! It already exists, its included with the items for sale.
Do you not think Southerby's would have done their research before including it in their original auction? And its not like this watch has just appeared out of the blue, it was auctioned along with loads of other Bader belongings, do you not think Southerby's would have checked those out too?
I just don't get all those who are doubting the provenance, its passed through one of the most respected auction houses in the world without any doubt being placed upon it.
How much more do you want?
Have you got x-ray vision no I think not.
A few Photo's and a description of what sotheby's have for sale.
http://www.mwrforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=59744
Last edited by Fords; 11th August 2013 at 08:24.
Did you actually look at the auction page?
Are the records of individual kit issues still held at Kew? I know service records are, but they're pretty minimalist; I wouldn't have thought this would show up in them.
Follow the link read the auction page make up your own mind.
description of watch, who gave it them to sell, and what possible connection he had to obtaining such a watch (he worked in the mess)from 1939 -1946. that's it.
http://www.mwrforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=59744
As far as it was sold at Sotheby's and it belonged to AR Dunn there is absolutely no connection to DB apart from a Dog tag attached to the watch, thats the way I see it.
I wish the OP good luck with his sale but for me I would still have questions.
Last edited by Fords; 11th August 2013 at 08:28.
I'll be honest, I don't know, because it's not something I've tried for before. However, I have found in the past that the amount of unexpected detail available at Kew is astonishing and until recently issued kit was often the only way of identifying a body. A record would have been kept, and with a pilot who was a national hero at the time, there may well have a little more ephemera sitting around in the paper records.
My problem is less whether it is connected with Bader and more how Dunn could come by it legitimately.As far as it was sold at Sotheby's and it belonged to AR Dunn there is absolutely no connection to DB apart from a Dog tag attached to the watch, that's the way I see it.
Last edited by M4tt; 11th August 2013 at 08:37.
So I guess you won't be bidding then? Your loss, no'one elses.
I see no problem at all with the provenance, it all looks genuine to me. Theres just no pleasing some people is there?
Still, I'm sitting here typeing this wearing a watch that belonged to a real hero, are you?
I'd be incredibly surprised if there any records available showing the issues of ATP watches.
Cheers
Foggy
Why not put it back through The most respected Auction house then????.
Thats not Provenance thats a description in a Auction House catalog
Are you for real.
Indeed Mr AR Dunn collecting specific items of DB he may have had idea about the future, back then old DB had a bit of a rep going on you would think KEW had some info of his kit.
After Meinessex dummy spit which degrades this thread I have no further interest and for that reason I'm out.
Last edited by Fords; 11th August 2013 at 09:09.
Why? They were an expensive bit of technical kit which had an issue number. Even if there wasn't a register of who was issued what (which there certainly would have been at the time) there certainly will be a record of where and when particular ranges of serial number went. Given that the watch has an ATP engraving rather than a 6b or 6e serial (or nothing) it's already a bit of an odd one.
coincidentally, I wrote something about this the other day here:
http://forums.watchuseek.com/f20/ome...re-897399.html
(But ignore the later joke posts about Bader and Rolex please...)
Last edited by M4tt; 11th August 2013 at 12:52.
A R Dunn Douglas Bader items have sold at auction before> http://www.antiquestradegazette.com/...ace-s-tin-leg/
all the research I have done is good enough for me, I didn't take spending my money and my friends money lightly, I will stand by these items all the way, watches and my reputation are more important to me than money, but to be honest money is important too, for me, my friends and my family.
This is not something I will sell and wash my hands of, I am not going to disappear after the auction that is for sure.
Fords, your reply's have disheartened me a bit to be honest but I respect your opinion and am glad you have taken the time and have stuck your neck out to question these items, it is not ideal but you are only saying what other people will be thinking, I have done the same too myself many times but to me the items feel right, if they are not no one but myself will lose out, my mates will have a chuckle at my expense too probably.
Cheers Mick
Why? Because I've been collecting mil issue watches for years and have never yet found a way of finding out who a watch was issued to. And that's not without trying, and trying really hard. The fact is the records do not exist to individual issue level. I'm more than happy for you to prove me wrong as it will mean I can get the issue records for all of my military watches just in case I have one that Monty ued ;-)
Cheers
Foggy
That's fair enough, if you have tried to track the information down a Kew and failed then you are a step ahead of me. However, you definitely can track where some batches of things (with a serial number range) went. For example, I was able to identify and track a Beaufighter all the way from a form 700 signed immediately prior to a crash, all the way back to the factory and get engine numbers, contract details and even meteorological data for the flight into Taq'ali on arrival and on the day of the crash on the way. (I concede that a watch is a smaller deal than a plane or an engine, but the had issue numbers for a reason and I'm surprised that any service would junk a potential source of identification of remains prior to DNA testing).
However, I assume you agree that If this batch of watches went to Fighter Command or Twelve Group or the range of places Bader went in his short but busy career, then that would be a bit of evidence, but if it went to the Black Watch then it would be strong evidence in the other direction. This information certainly would be available
Last edited by M4tt; 11th August 2013 at 14:17.
Perhaps you are approaching the search the wrong way; clearly there weren't central records of what kit was issued to individuals, but each individual had a record of what kit was issued to him or her. Hopefully, somewhere there is Douglas Bader's personal record - whatever was the wartime equivalent of form AF 538.
I am more curious about the general idea that an officer in the Royal Air Force was issued with an ATP wristwatch; I have never heard of that before, was it common?
Just ignore him, he was being a twat. It seems everywhere you go on this forum these days there is always someone looking for a fight, even in places where there is no argument to be had.
It seems 'haters are gonna hate' clearly no amount of provenance would ever be good enough for him, thats why people like Fords are never destined to own such a peice.
Just one thought... Have you considered pulling Mr Dunn's military record? It will at least prove that he was there at the right place at the right time, thus proving that he could easily have been gifted the watch. He may even have an interesting story all of his own.
I'm not sure that was fair - Fords is entitled to his opinion as much as anyone else. As I said earlier to Mick, the only person who needs to be happy that the watch is what it appears to be is the ultimate buyer and their max price will relate to how sure they actually are...
There will always be sceptical people who don't want to believe and will find evidence that it isn't 'right' - who cares, they are not prospective buyers. Will they put prospective buyers off? Not really, buyers should do their own due diligence to their own level of satisfaction. (Assuming the seller is genuine and not a scammer - there is no doubt Mick is selling in good faith.)
I don't know what checks Sotheby's would have done, but surely there is some come back if they sell something that that later turns out to be at best not what it was listed as, or at worst an all out fake? They must need a minimum level of certainty just to list a description such as this? I see no disclaim or even hedging in their description?
Rob
**Edit to add: Are any of the military history buffs on this thread doubtful about the other items from the original Sotheby's sale - I would think these should be easier to authenticate and may add credence to the watch?**
Last edited by AIDM; 11th August 2013 at 15:07.
Looking carefully at the picture of the relevant page in the Sotheby's catalogue there is mention of a number:
So maybe not so odd then?..arrow and A.T.P. 68012.
I'm afraid not: ATP is a designation for an army time piece. 6b or 6e is an equivalent RAF designation for an instrument to be used in an aircraft. The remaining number is an issue number. The RAF also procured cheaper watches for general service.
Can you exclude a prank? Bader made a name in that field as well... Maybe the watch was originally issued to Dunn, not Bader......... then there was a note...
Edit:
Douglas Bader figures prominently in this 1976 documentary about the Spitfire; he's wearing a watch with a dark dial.
Last edited by brobr; 11th August 2013 at 22:44. Reason: added info
Where is this - I can't find it ?
Cheers
The link is in the first post.
In this photo of him as a Wing Commander, he's wearing a white-faced watch, which looks to be rectangular shaped - perhaps Reverso or Cartier Tank:
Exactly, its not just the items included in this sale that add to the provenance, but all the other items that have come from the same source, ie: Dunn. These include signed papers etc....
The prosthetic leg mentioned in a link given above is also a good example ;-). I think that proves that there must have been a pretty close friendship between the two for him to have ended up with something that is so personal to Bader.
In this photo of him as a Wing Commander, he's wearing a white-faced watch, which looks to be rectangular shaped - perhaps Reverso or Cartier Tank:
By the time he was a wing commander he was at Tangmere in 11 group - the battle had been won, Park had been moved and Leigh Mallory took over at 11 group where Bader was at the forefront of the disastrous 'leaning forward' strategy just as he had been at the forefront of the equally disastrous Big Wing strategy. The watch came from the mess at Duxford, which pins the acquisition down to two rather short periods - with a middle period in which 242 were based at Coltishall and 'commuting' daily to Duxford so that Bader could lead the Big Wing.
I have studied that picture time and time again, I see a round watch but perhaps I am only seeing what I want to see, I'm still searching for other pictures but have not got close enough yet. I am sure a better picture will exist somewhere, enjoyable but frustrating at the same time.In this photo of him as a Wing Commander, he's wearing a white-faced watch, which looks to be rectangular shaped - perhaps Reverso or Cartier Tank:
Cheers Mick
I have also found this Sotherby's report from the time of the sale.
'GLENN MILLER' LOG BOOK SELLS FOR £21,850
-in a sale of Aeronautica at Sotheby's Sussex-
A LOGBOOK that could shed further light on how legendary bandleader Glenn Miller met his death in December
1944, sold today, April 13, 1999 for £21,850 at Sotheby's Sussex in a sale of Aeronautica.
The book was bought over the telephone by William Suitts, an avid Glenn Miller fan who lives in Bolder, Colorado, the
town where Miller went to school. Mr Suitts flew B24 bombers in World War Two and now owns a construction loan
firm. Speaking over the phone from Colorado after the sale, Mr Suitts said: "I was initially unsure whether to bid in the
sale, but when I heard that June Allison, who stared with James Stewart in the Glenn Miller story, was visiting Denver
and then after that I heard a Glenn Miller tune playing on the radio, I knew that I had to bid in the sale."
The logbook was owned by the late Fred H Shaw DFC, navigator of Lancaster bomber NF973, the jettisoned bombs
from which may have caused the plane carrying Miller to crash into the Channel. Mr Shaw was flying a mission to
disrupt the enemy's preparations for the Ardennes offensive. It was aborted with the result that there is no actual
report on the mission and the incident remains a mystery. Sold with the logbook was a letter from the Ministry of
Defence, in which it is stated that the authorities think the jettisoned bombs are the most likely answer to what
happened to Miller. The lot, which also includes a photograph of Mr Shaw and the crew of the Lancaster, was sold by
Mr Shaw's daughter Cheryl Fillmore and was estimated at £600-800. Stephen Maycock, Sotheby's Aeronautica
specialist, said: "I am truly staggered at the price, it was over 20 times more than I expected the book to realise." The
sale of Aeronautica covered all aspects of aviation history from the late 18th century onwards and included books,
model planes, posters and clothing.
Other highlights in the Sotheby's sale included a collection of items relating to Battle of Britain ace Douglas Bader
which realised £11,925 many of which were bought by the Imperial War Museum, who will use them to form one of
the centrepieces of an exhibition to celebrate the 60th anniversary of the Battle of Britain at RAF Duxford,
Cambridgeshire, next year. The collection: included a wartime service tunic and cap which he wore during his time at
RAF Duxford in 1940, which realised £5,405 against a pre-sale estimate of £2,000-3,000; a service issue
wristwatch and dog tag that sold for £2,300 against an estimate of £600-800; his officer's mess bill for the amount of
£8-19-3 which realised £1,380 against an estimate of £200-300; his hip-flask inscribed in ink 'Dog's Body' which
realised £1,058, more than double its pre-sale estimate of £300-500, and a permanent pass granting Ft/L Bader,
26151, of 222 Squadron to visit the local pub 'The Red Lion Inn, Whittlesford' was estimated at £300-400 and sold
for £1,058. All the items were formerly in the collection of the late Mr AR Dunn, who was stationed at Duxford as a
permanent mess clerk between 1939-1946.
Elsewhere, A £1 note carried by Alcock and Brown, the first men to fly across the Atlantic non-stop, sold for £2,875
against an estimate of £400-600. The flight in 1919 took 16 hours and 27 minutes, but came to a soggy end when
they landed in what Alcock thought was a convenient field in Ireland, turned out to be a peat bog! The £1 note was
one of three carried across the Atlantic and subsequently presented to another navigator Laurence Cade. It was
being sold by a relation of Cades who lives in West Sussex.
A cup, saucer and sideplate from LZ127 'Graf Zeppelin' 1928 which carried an estimate of £1,000-1,500 sold for
£2,645, and an exceptionally large section of framework from a German Naval Zeppelin L33, 1916 which crash
landed at Little Wigborough, Essex, on September 24, 1916 realised £4,025. Next sale of Aeronautica is on July 13,
1999
From: Sotheby's
Summers Place
Billingshurst
West Sussex
RH14 9AD
Tel: 01403 833500
For further press information only,
please contact:
Rachel Aked
Last edited by Michael E; 12th August 2013 at 17:15.
Good luck with the auction Mick and don't get wound by the keyboard warriors.
Yes this is an open fora for discussion but why folk feel the need, I shall never know. Having said this I am a lover not a fighter......
All the best
Paul
There are plenty of people that could authentic the watches origin. Lady Bader for one is still alive I think? Although in her 90's. I have had my prothstetic maintained at Roehampton, I met prothsetists who worked on Bader. Many of them knew him for years. Interesting stuff, a great hero though supposed to be a nasty piece of work!
"A show-off always headed for a fall" according to a Squadron-Leader contemporary I once knew.
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