Right, i could use some advice on how to deal with following: bought a watch on the bay with a lemania 5100 movement.
Parts of the description : 'all functions working fine'..'clean movement'...'checked by our watchmaker' ...but also 'service history unknown'...'sold as is'...
The watch arrived from Australia (i'm in Belgium) and I immediately noticed the date could not be quickset, it would not change completely over midnight and did not position correctly in the date window. I sent a mail to the seller informing him to which he replied that it was most likely a little lever/wheel that got loose during transport : an easy fix for a watchmaker. I then sent the watch to a recommended watchmaker on a dutch forum i frequent who told me the watch movement was really dirty, full of hair, probably tinkered with by an amateur and the date issue was caused by a couple of screws which were loose.
I was quoted 350 euro for a full service and fixing the date + cleanup of the case & crystal. I know this is not cheap but this quote is not what I need advice on.
My question : i do not believe the date issue happened during transport nor do I think the sellers description was correct and fair, on the other hand I like the watch, price was fair if it didn't have the issues (570 euro). Also sending it back for a full refund will set me back approx 170 euro : shipping cost to me and back to Australia, shipping cost to and from my watchmaker, a little charge for the quote and import duty I paid (could probably be claimed back but that will probably cost me some time, effort and annoyance dealing with the customs people)
So do you think it would be fair to ask the (profesional watch-)seller to pay some of the cost of having it fixed, and how much would you ask him (100-200 euro ?) he did say service history was unknown so probably should only have to pay for the date issue...?
As he stated " all functions working fine" and "clean movement" then the watch clearly isn't as described and you have proof from your own watchmaker (in writing preferably).
You are therefore entitled to be compensated a reasonable amount in order to put you in the position you expected to be in. You can claim a partial refund through eBay in the dispute resolution centre. It's in the sellers interest to negotiate an amicable amount as eBay are almost certain to find in your favour.
If you decide to return it, he has to refund your postage too. You're only liable for one way postage, sending it back to him. I'd ask for a significant part of the service cost that's fair first, then return it if its not forthcoming.
Having just serviced a Lemania 5100 (aka Omega 1045) there are a couple of points to watch, that can be expensive. The day/date mechanism is supported on a plastic piece which is prone to cracking. It is expensive to replace (£186) and I suggest the OP ensures his watch repairer has checked this. How do I know this.....I`ve just fitted a new one.
The other problem is harder to find. One of the wheels has a plastic/nylon pinion which wears and burrs. Replacement is £70......had to fit this too!
Apart from these problems the rest of the movement is quite a nice design, easy to work on. I don`t think there are any other specific problem areas.
I would definitely be looking for some money back on this if the day/date doesn`t function correctly; it could be an indication that the support piece is cracked.
Paul
I think part of the costs of returning it have already been made, shipping to the watch repair guy and the quote. I assume you will have to pay those either way.
I've just gone through a dispute over the last 3 weeks, won't go into the minor details ........
Watch was listed as mint etc, pictures etc , won this on auction.
Arrived , packaged superbly and sent via RMSD, when I opened it there was a significant scratch on the crystal leading into the bezel, shock , horror , mad etc ............ Obviously not / far from mint !
Opened an Ebay dispute / resolution straight away , works on a chat system , kept everything polite as possible , stated exact facts etc.
After doing some digging turns out he had bought the watch on a previous auction listing a month earlier and copy and pasted the pics onto the new auction listing !
So he'd bought it , damaged it , tried to shift it back on !
He did try it implicate me by saying I'd dropped it when I'd opened it etc , but once I mentioned the copied listing ( all by using the resolution centre ) he went quite.
Had to wait 13 days before ebay intervened , they sent me fully paid postage labels to send watch back & I was issued with a full refund last Friday.
I've been on ebay since 2001 , 100% feedback , bought and sold , bought many watches and on this occasion I was bitten but ebay were superb in my defence but I had evidence.
Be carful , not everyone is a crook , my advice check feedback listings.
Just to be pedantic here, you can request a partial refund, but the seller does not have to agree to this, and can instead insist on the watch being returned for a full refund - in which case the buyer is liable for the postage for sending it back (unless it's one of the rare cases where PayPal provide a pre-paid label).Originally Posted by Dave+63
Some sellers are reluctant to agree to partial refunds, as there are a lot of scammers out there who will invent a small problem with an item, in the knowledge that PayPal will almost certainly find in their favour, and then use this to request a partial refund.
Some great advice here. I'd pursue the partial refund.
Gray
Get a partial refund.
Under PayPal's rules, with a SNAD (Significantly Not As Described) dispute the seller is not required to pay for the return shipping (which needs to be done by a tracked method - this can be expensive for international returns!)
As the watch only sold for €570, I would be surprised if the seller will be willing to give a €350 refund towards servicing it. Given that the initial listing misrepresented the condition of the watch, I suspect that he is much more likely to require the watch to be returned (at the buyer's expense), and then to re-list it on eBay - perhaps with a slightly more accurate description. If he really wants to play hardball, he could even reject the return, on the grounds that the buyer's watchmaker opened it and therefore it may not be in the same condition as when it was sent out. Hopefully it won't come to that.
Hi all,
Some great advice so far, I am currently on holidays, but as soon as i get back I'll contact the seller regarding a partial refund, first by mail then paypal. I agree that a full refund would be nice but the quote from my watchmaker was not split into fixing problem and the full the service so I 'm not sure how much each is. I will keep you posted on the outcome..
It's funny that I am normal the one people turn to when they want to buy something online to review the add & seller and now I got so excited that I completely overlooked the 'sold as is' red flag....
It's certainly sharp practice on the seller's part, no question about that. However, he's claimed that he didn`t know when it was serviced last....so the buyer should reasonably have expected to pay for it servicing. That's usually the way it works out with old watches.
For me, the key point is whether the watch has damaged parts or not and whether it's going to cost more than a regular service. The fact that the date isn`t working would worry me and I`d be asking the repairer whether he'd established whether the date support piece was broken or not.
350 Euro isn`t cheap for servicing one of these; I think the OP needs to agree with the repairer what this covers and whether it includes all replacement parts. I would be charging around £125 + parts, but I`m in a minority because I always quote parts separately.
Paul
I agree that the service was to expected, I only didn't expect the service to be needed upon arrival of the watch. The date is something that should have been mentioned and that is the part that I would like the seller to pay for, + maybe a little extra for deliberately mispresenting the watch, he appears to be a profesional watch seller....
Be careful what e promises. I received the wrong item some time ago, a mistake obviously. Seller promised via eBay pm that if I returned the item she would then ship correct item and refund me for return shipping. I returned the item and then she simply refunded the original amount. I was out for the return shipping an had nothing.
Raised a claim and even though they could all read this they did not intervene stating that there seller rating wouldn't ale care if more people complained. She confirmed even that I had just lost the return shipping.
In hindsight I would have been better off just keeping the wrong item and not shipping back.
Lesson: stick to hard ebay rules not a promise via eBay pm.
So I contacted the seller by email explaining the situation to which he immediately reacted by opening an ebay case offering me full refund (purchase + one way shipping cost), I denied the full refund and opened my own case requesting a partial refund. This opens a messaging session, I can only close the case by accepting his full refund or stating that the case was solved to my satisfaction. We messaged back and forth but could not agree so now I have to wait 3 business days to escalate and have ebay make a decision...
To be continued...
His side sounds fair enough to me to be honest - though push for both ways postage maybe. I can't see that you can demand a partial refund if he is offering you the option to either keep it as is, or return to get your money back.
He has started communicating again now so that is good.
Just to summarise the way I see it :
If I send the watch back to Australia for the refund of the purchase + one way shipping I will have lost 125 euro (estimate, a bit less than the original estimate : -shipping AU to me) + I will be taking the shipping risk.
35 euro : my import duties (which probably can be recovered but I will have to spend considerable time and effort dealing with Belgian customs officials)
30 euro : shipping back and from my watchmaker : to have him take a look at what is wrong
30 euro : registered shipping to Australia (estimate)
30 euro : watchmaker time spent diagnosing (estimate, probably a bit high)
The problem occurred because the seller, who is a professional watch seller, did not describe the watch correctly, because he was sloppy or because he wanted to make a quick easy buck.
I am not expecting the service to be refunded but I should be able to put the watch in the state in which it was described without any loss for me.
I used to think I am rather 'ebay-savvy' (285 feedback 99 % as a buyer) but will have to pay more attention to red flags ('as is') and ask more questions upfront confirming state. Still think ebay is not to bad for from a buyers point of view.
Again this will not ruin my day, even if I get nothing out of this, it's a hobby and I expect to put some money in it but it's about the principle...when I sell something I always describe it as accurate as possible and even describe it 'down' (if that makes sense)
Sorry to say this but you know you won't get watchmaker inspection cost back and import either. Only original fee and one way shipping. You can probably file for a refund on import but that might be more hassle ten it is worth.
Ethically you are right though but these are the eBay rules and I try to always keep those in te equation. An eBay deal should be really good to possibly cover for some extra charges. I use ebay mostly for new stuff.
open an ebay dispute , you may see a better outcome if you do that
I had my watchmaker split the costs into service and fixing of the date issue (300 & 60, excl shipping and vat) and had the seller refund 70 euro for fixing the date issue and thus bringing the watch into the state of the description.
If any of you have any issues with ebay sellers, good to know is that as soon as I opened a claim his paypal account appeared to be blocked, which did put some pressure on him.
Attached the sellers picture of the watch I bought, on it's way from my watchmaker to me after having the date fixed, crystal and case polished and fully serviced..
Last edited by bnootens; 30th July 2013 at 16:56.
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