I finally fell into the trap after years of successful trading :/
When I opened the parcel, it took me one second to spot that it's a cheap ripoff. Afterwards I noticed that the pictures must have been taken off Chrono24.
Therefore I think that the seller is 100% aware of the "scam".
What's the best way to settle this?
Ebay states that I should contact the seller first. So I guess I'll send him a neutral email, stating the facts - resist the temptation of any insults and hope for his understanding?
How does the return process work? He should give me the address which is registered with his ebay/paypal I suppose? Then I return the thing via "signed for"?
And at what point should I open a case in the resolution centre?
Many thanks,
(a gutted) Al
Last edited by Anaxarch; 1st May 2013 at 19:01.
Nightmare.
First thing to do is as you say - polite email to the seller stating facts and asking for a full refund. Once you have your refund, return the watch - and not before.
If they get nasty, open a dispute. You should be OK if you paid by PayPal, just don't return it until you have the cash back!
I'd open the case straight away...
Paypal should protect you, fingers crossed
Just be friendly and business-like. No need to yell and insult, despite the seller being a scammer.
If you've paid through PayPal you'll enjoy very good protection. You could even give them a call to help you through the steps. PP usually opens up a dialogue enabling the seller to give his side of the story (which will inevitably be nonsense, as the watch is fake). If he doesn't offer the refund straight away you can escalate it into a claim.
He might ask for the watch to be returned, then you will have to ship it back (be sure to check with PayPal what kind of shipping confirmation they accept! Some shipping companies do not offer sufficient confirmation that it has actually been delivered to the right address, e.g. they'll only list the postcode or city).
All in all you should be protected, as eBay/PP tend to look after their buyers much more than their sellers.
+1Originally Posted by Kozzy
Email the seller and if he's uncooperative, open a claim. Ebay will decide in your favour and the seller will be forced to take the watch back. Just follow the advice about delivery confirmation. It's quite important.
What watch was it? Any photos?
Once I received a replica watch from ebay and when I opened a dispute at paypal, they asked me for a written letter from an AD stating that the watch was a fake. The ADs where not very cooperative...
Thanks guys, that makes me feel a bit better.
We're talking about a Patek Calatrava from the 90s and as you can imagine not a pity amount... I saw the auction fairly late, one day before the end - there were already 30-something bids. Sent him an email, didn't get a reply. Due to the short description and no history of him selling valuable items before, I've got to admit that I had a bad feeling from the start.
Nevertheless I took a bit of a punt because the pic seemed to be alright and he had more than 100 pos feedback.
After I won the auction, I asked him for his number to ask some questions regarding the history and of the watch. He didn't give it to me until I said I wouldn't pay until I had talked to him. I clearly should have stuck to this plan because he didn't pick up the phone. Just sent me some texts, saying that it's 100% authentic and that I could have it checked upon reception and if not satisfied return it bla bla bla.
This shouldn't have satisfied me but I was in a rush to get this watch in time for my dads birthday. So I paid... Big mistake.
Interesting thing is: I just googled his phone number which lead me to a gumtree advert from 2 days ago in which he sells the same watch for the same price I paid, but this time with the real pictures of the replica (he must have bought an entire batch of these that filthy...).
I've sent him a polite email now and will also open a case with Ebay, regardless of his reply.
DON'T buy from ebay if you've got the slightest note of suspicion. I got stung big time for my naivety. NEVER believe in the goodness of Ebay sellers if there's a box you can't tick!
Best,
Al
Open a PayPal dispute immediately. One of the options for the reason for dispute is that it's a fake.
The one time this happened to me, I was refunded in full within 24 hours.
I didn't have to return the item, which makes sense, because the seller will only put it up for sale again.
With Paypal dispute you mean the claim via resolution centre in Ebay, right? Not via the Paypal website?
Thanks,
Al
Paypal dispute immediately (through PP).
If you open the dispute in eBay (not PayPal), then it's up to the seller to prove that it's not fake.
If you open dispute in PayPal, then you, as the buyer will have to prove that it is fake, probably through a letter (on headed paper) from a PP AD, which is something that they may, or may not, be willing to provide.
If you do need to send the watch back, you must send it by a tracked (not a "signed for") method.
Have a look at http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=3554595
^^^^^
This makes it deliberate fraud, I would contact the cops, he may have 100's of them
I agree - this appears to be a criminal enterprise and should be treated as such.
Damn, I opened the claim via Paypal now... not sure if I can also open one in Ebay? Hopefully I can find an AD who's willing to provide me with proof.
Will also report that Gumtree ad to the police.
Regards,
Al
Sad story....
Just don't make a mistake and close your PayPal dispute as you will not be able to open it again.
It doesnt have to be an AD i have used a letter from a watchmaker in the past, as long as it confirms the watch is a replica paypal will find in your favour and make you sign and return a declaration that you have destroyed the watch, they will then refund
I believe if over the value of £150 it has to be both tracked and signed for.
Last edited by jegger; 1st May 2013 at 18:11.
Aren't they in the same group?
Try this on eBay: go to <Customer Support><Resolution Centre> and choose the relevant option under "I bought an item". Then follow the each step ... it generally starts with messaging the seller (as you have discussed above). I'd keep all messages on the eBay system so that they are visible to eBay staff. Using their resolution centre starts a the clock on the dispute procedure, so keep an eye on how long things are taking to get sorted.
I'm lucky and have managed to get things sorted very amicably so far ... but it sounds as thought you've found a dealer that not so good. It would inform the rest of us if you could point him out ... or simply tell us the number of the item you bought.
+1
I hope that you can get this sorted.
Regards,
Bob
I wouldn't send it back to the seller, if it goes anywhere you should send it to the police - if they want to take on the case they'll want the evidence.
If the seller requests it back let him know it's with the police and he can contact them for its return. That might help you speed up the resolution.
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/...unterfeit.html - click on the link to report a listing selling a counterfeit/fake item, and then fill in the item number in the empty field provided.
As you've already bought the item, you'll need to open a case, which can be done through your Purchase History in My Ebay, on the left, then select More Actions on the right, of the item bought, and choose Resolve a problem.
Read and follow each step carefully, but you can go back before finally submitting.
I wouldn't engage with the seller first - just go straight through the Resolution Centre to make sure you get reimbursed.
If not already done so with Paypal, having started there, they may redirect you to resolving the matter through eBay's RC, and if you paid with a credit/debt card as opposed to bank account linked, you have recourse through that if the amount is over the £100 threshold to fall under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act.
I'll let you research that bit yourself.
If under £100, then you can instigate a chargeback through the card provider, in which they'll send you some paperwork to fill out, to help them make a decision.
Not sure how that works on private individuals, as opposed to businesses, but I'm guessing the item was over the £100 mark, so this mechanism is a moot point in this instance.
Okay, I haven't opened an Ebay case - but stuck with the Paypal case (Ridiculous that there are these two options in the first place).
Been in touch with the seller and he is innocent of course. Even got a certification of authenticity. Haha, right - so why didn't he mention that in the auction? He kept spamming me with text messages, also calling ME a scammer!!! Can you believe it...
He was even bold enough to write (exact wording): "2 thousand save the children fun will be missing out on also shame all around" and "the watch is beautiful and it would have suited you". Pathetic.
Long story short, he wants me to return an AUTHENTIC Patek under the normal returns policy. I even received an email from Paypal, saying that they decided the claim for the following payment in my favour and giving me the details about the returns process. But I thought if I return it, he will most probably claim that I haven't returned the item he sent me in the first place.
I then called up PP customer service and the guy told me to ignore the previous e-mail.... Fake items won't be returned, but need to be destroyed (as someone one here had already pointed out correctly). So basically if I hadn't called in and wouldn't be member of such an awesome forum, I might have been tempted to send it back straight away and possibly sealed my fate.
He then sent me another e-mail, asking for additional information:
"To continue with our investigation, we need documentation that verifies the
item you received is not authentic. This document must come from an
unbiased third party, such as a dealer, appraiser or other organisation
(other than yourself) that is qualified to assess the item’s authenticity.
The document must specifically state how this item differs from an
authentic item. The person or organisation evaluating the item must also
explain how they determined the item is not authentic.
The document must also be on letterhead that includes the name, address and
phone number of the business or organisation."
I will try to get this done tomorrow morning. Will keep you posted.
Best,
Al
Last edited by Anaxarch; 1st May 2013 at 18:57.
What saddens me though is that many reputable and sincere sellers probably get scammed this way. Buyers simply claim to have received a fake and take a newly purchased replica to a dealer to get it authenticated. As long as PP usually judges in favour of the seller (which I hope they do for my own sake in this case)...
Best,
Al
If he's selling fakes as a business, ring trading standards as well, if palming them off as genuine on fleabay.
If it's within a few hours drive I'd take it back personally. :-)
Best of luck with it. Hope it gets sorted out.
Good things are moving along quickly for you, lucky too you are in London where you shouldn't have to much trouble finding someone to give you the paperwork you need...bet it's still not that easy even in London.
Scumbag, its all I can call these type of sellers. If I sell anything on ebay I always video it working as well as videoing serial numbers as well. I am confident that paypal will come down on your side. Unfortunately there are dodgy traders on that site. Good luck, keep us informed.
Steve
sorry I know we are not meant to bring this up, but as paypal have sided with you and just need to hand in the paperwork for a full refund, I'm going to ask about the elephant in the room, how come you can list all the telltale signs that this was a con and seem to have know them at the time not just after purchase but still went ahead and bought? I'm not asking to twist the knife, just trying to understand what these con artist already seem to know, that someone will bite even with a few red lights going off in their head.
Good luck, paypal dont give you much time to get things sorted .
good luck and thanks for the warnings. be sure to check things out properly before buying on ebay. i bought a few watches off ebay in the past but had always spoken to the seller first. Buy the seller before the product!
It's not always obvious. The fake I bought was from a seller with good feedback, that showed the manufacturer's pictures of the genuine article. The price was not a mega bargain, just one of the best when comparing among the twenty or thirty sellers listing it.
The watch that arrived came in a genuine manufacturer's box, even. But when I opened the box the word FAKE flashed into my brain within the first half second.
PayPal refunded and eBay closed the seller account, both within 48 hours. I was asked not to return the watch, but was not asked to provide proof of destruction either.
Best of luck getting the letter, I hope it all goes well for you.
I can understand people getting conned, what I'm unsure of in this case is why he carried on with the purchase when even he himself lists a whole load of reasons that suggested this was best to walk away from.
As said I'm trying to understand what it is in our nature that makes us ignore our instincts.
I'm only asking this for clarification, but are you truly looking for common sense...on a watch forum?
Because it's a place where people have developed an instinctive response to suppress their instincts.
Sorry to hear this. Must be a very stressful thing to go through. Hope you get it sorted soon. The joys of eBay :(
Happened to me twice in the last 2-3 years, if it was through eBay, it's very easy and straight forward, absolutely no worries, you will get your funds back.
Would you mind sharing the item ID , I'm curios what the seller wrote in the description. Also, most likely a newish seller, right ? No so many feedbacks ?
Oh, and did you pay via PayPal or something else ?
Luckily for me, I had absolutely no issues about getting my funds back from eBay/PayPal, they didnt even ask for much proof or anything like that , in one case the seller had actually disappeared just as I opened the case ("no longer registered"), the other did not respond to my "I received an item not as described" , waited 4 days for case to be closed, got my refund.
Unfortunately, I also got stung via a PayPal gift to somebody on WUS once, after payment never replied , was not completely new either on those forums. That's why it took me a while when I started concentrating my watch interests here on tz-uk as most people use PayPal gift yet obviously there's generally a more close-knit community that you begin to trust.
Actually, compared to most other ways of acquiring a watch, eBay is rather safe I'd say, especially for the buyers, not so much from the sellers side, unless you always use international tracking accepted by them which sometimes isn't worth the trouble on lower value items. Plus there are the scam-buyers who simply lie and then eBay/PayPal, in their quest for 100% buyer satisfaction doesn't give much of a rat's a$$ for that of the seller's...
I would agree with that if the ebay cons were limited to just watches, I guess it's a case of playing the odds and thinking it won't happen to me.
It just got me thinking, when the OP listed all his concerns but still proceeded with the purchase, I've done similar, had concerns but went ahead but that was me as the seller LOL even when I sell I worry, but not so sure I could when so much money as this is involved, the biggest red light in this case was asking for a phone call but settling for a text.
There is always paypal to fall back on, so that must play a part in why people proceed when they think they shouldn't, for all of ebays faults at least paypal's refund policy is a safety net for the buyer but as the OP says, the poor seller is then left open to the con artist.
Really ? So I sell a watch to you on Ebay and you claim its fake.Paypal would refund you no questions asked and close my account and you keep the alleged fake watch .
I am fairly confident that its not how it worksbut I would be interested in how you did this
Well, it depends, in this case there were probably other things taken into consideration most likely other complaints against the seller that determined the outcome.Really ? So I sell a watch to you on Ebay and you claim its fake.Paypal would refund you no questions asked and close my account and you keep the alleged fake watch .
I am fairly confident that its not how it works
Signed for either way - I had Paypal refuse to pay out on a case they found in my favour because I hadn't got proof of delivery...
It wasn't much and the PO covered it as a lost item, but that won't happen with a valuable watch...
M
Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
If this were me I'd open a dispute with Ebay/Paypal stating that the watch is a fake, wouldn't even bother to contact the seller.
Ebay/Paypal frown upon fakes/replicas though it does leave you with an issue as the onus seems to be on the buyer to get get confirmation that it's a fake, which might cost you, depends how friendly you are with your local AD.
Why would I do the above rather than contact the seller, because once it's been confirmed that the watch is a fake Ebay/Paypal wont' ask for the watch to the returned to the seller, they ask for the watch to be destroyed, which is when you get out your camera and the post here :)
Maybe I just have a mean streak but when somebody takes me for a ride I'll always do my best to return the favour, will also teach the seller that there are consequences to selling fakes.
I don't understand what you mean by that?
As I understand the rules, under £150 proof of delivery is fine, over £150 it has to be both, proof of delivery, with a signature on delivery.
Proof of delivery does not have to be a signature, a quote from paypal...
"by providing proof of delivery (for items valued over £150, we also require signature confirmation)"
If you are saying your item was less than £150 and you had proof of delivery but no signature, then you should have still been covered, sounds like they got it wrong in your case.
A tracked item, such as Royal Mail's tracked service would be enough for items under £150 as it would state the item was delivered, that service either comes with or without a signature, depending on which option you take.
Last edited by jegger; 2nd May 2013 at 18:51.
Do you have a link to the sales listing?
Went to Patek Philippe / 15 New Bond Street in London around noon to get the watch looked at and certified. Have to say that they were extremely understanding, helpful and more than willing to provide the necessary document. Spent half an hour there while they looked at it from all angles, took pictures, measurements and compared it to an authentic Calatrava 3919 (in the backroom). They will compile everything and e-mail the proof to me on Saturday. Quite relieved already. Hope this will be sufficient to make a case against that guy.
Here's the other Gumtree ad btw (with pictures of the actual replica): http://www.gumtree.com/p/for-sale/pa...ava/1016708932
Haven't reported that to the authorities yet.
Regards,
Al
Good of them to do all that!
Just check the time period they give you to get the proof to paypal/ebay, someone posted on here it was only 3 days, but have since removed that post, maybe it was incorrect hence the removal but best make sure.
Good on PP to support you this way!
Yes, I was a bit scared that they would want me to post it to PP in Switzerland first or something. No fuss at all though. The lady was very nice ;)
PayPal gave me 10 calendar days from the date of their message. I've got til the 11th. But thanks for the warning!
Regards,
Al
Glad this is coming to a positive resolution. Hopefully no-one else gets scammed in the meantime!
Well done ! What's odd is that the seller accepts Paypal on Gumtree...unless he finds a very naive buyer who won't complain, he should know he won't be able to keep the money.
I must say I've seen a few shady auctions on eBay recently on some nice Omega watches at very reasonable prices from sellers with 100+ 100% feedback but for purchases of small meaningless items and sometimes from the same sellers. It was the case for that 18K MQ that got sold several times on eBay and the last time by a guy in the UK. I wonder if some accounts are not compromised and/or resold somehow. The 18k MQ was an obvious scam, but in these cases I've seen recently, maybe it was legit and the price didn't go up because people had their doubts. But yes, as the saying goes you're buying the seller, so if you have doubts, it's best to pass.
Back to the eBay/Paypal claims process, I was under the impression that if you'd paid via Paypal, which is the case most often, then eBay would systematically make you open a claim with Paypal. Don't see why that would have changed recently?
Last edited by webvan; 3rd May 2013 at 07:16.
That Gumtree ad is hilarious. Would someone really part with 4k for a tiny photo with that little info? On a watch, even second-hand, that should be close to 3x that amount?
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