Hybrid cars - what do you know? (advice needed please)
What is the general opinion on Hybrids in 2013?
Apart from zero road tax and exemptions from congestion charges, are they at a good level now to be considered a good alternative?
Any pros and cons?
Specifically (not me personally but family) might be considering a Lexus C200h . Any experiences with this model and any rivals to consider?
Thanks.
Personally, I have to smile when I get in my car - I see nothing on the hybrid market that would do that (not even on running costs or if it is v fast for a short distance).
They are not very carbon footprint friendly at the moment due to the batteries but that may change?.
Very dependant on requirements and wants - I'll wait until I am 70 for the hybrid unless there is a massive advance in technology before then..................................
Last edited by Chris_in_the_UK; 6th March 2013 at 22:57. Reason: Carbon footprint comment
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Load of nonsense IMO, lugging around a load of expensive hi-tech weight for little gain other than politics - just wait till they're eight years old and nobody'll touch them as they need a new cellpack at £5k!
I bought my wife a Prius. Bloody lovely. Fits 5 (with luggage), automatic, has a dash board out of a starship, reversing camera, self parking, One of the best incar audio systems I have heard, which includes a hard drive! and so on.
Best of all - zero tax, 50+ mpg irrespective of traffic condition, Chicken shit servicing costs, and best of all it's "cool" with the other mums.
She is happy and I can keep my 911.
Happy days
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Plenty of old Prius around over 10 years old. Plus they now recycle the batteries so I am told.Originally Posted by GraniteQuarry
I was in Milan a couple of months back and they use them as taxis - image the life of an italian taxi
Failing that - a golf blue motion.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
And we get to the real reason
Only credible reason in my book.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Lots of rubbish being spouted on here, I'm on my second Lexus hybred, the first one was an RX400 now I have an RX450. I had the first one for 7 years, it never missed a beat, went like a rocket, was faster than a 3litre X5 sport and a 535 estate, did everything it was supposed to and returned 36 mpg average, however I drove it. I decided to replace at with 150000 miles on the clock, services were about £150 a pop, because of the energy harvesting the discs and pads last forever, mine wee changed at 80000, not bad for a two tonne car.
The new one has more toys and the transition is now seamless, you really can't tell, it also returns 36 mpg average, they claim 44 but that's rubbish.
I had a CT200 for a couple of weeks recently, I couldn't get it under 65mpg, and I tried very hard, it handles brilliantly has lots of toys, the dash display is impressive, but it's not fast, I'd say it was a tarted up Prius, which isn't a bad thing.
All of the environmental stuff I see written about Hybreds seems to assume the cars only last three years, it's a very convenient way to do the calculations, the battery technology is reliable and the cars last as long as anything else on the road.
When Toyota developed the technology the other car manufacturers treated it as a joke, now they all produce or are developing Hybreds.
Yeah, and the next hybrids won't be lugging around a half tonne of lead. Current ones are a poor technical solution to a non-problem, but hey ho some buy into it good for you.
Only when nuclear fusion comes on-line will true eco cars be with us.
The Batteries In the Rx weigh about 40 kilos, I think the Prius ones weigh 25.5.
They don't seem any more economical than diesel or even many petrol engines. The manufacturing process is said to be not particularly environmentally friendly. So the economic / environment argument doesn't seem to hold much weight, unless artificially boosted with tax concessions. As far as just being a car, I drove a Prius and found it like all small Japanese cars. Control feel much too light, no driving feedback, almost "video game" lack of feel. I'm sure it will be very well screwed together, although I have yet to see a Japanese car at any price that has an interior comparable to the Jag/Merc/Audi class. Plastic everywhere, nasty soft buttons, and a depressing lack of overall design thought.
There are no consumer diesel cars in Japan ( not even taxis - they run on LPG ) and hybrids are popular. I wouldn't worry about buying one from a longevity or fitness-for-purpose view. There are zillions of them in Japan, old and new, and it is becoming a popular taxi too. I suspect the Japanese makers see diesel and petrol engines as "old-tech" and are happy to leave the Europeans and Americans to push these while they get a head start on the "future". When they got started on that path more than a decade ago, it must have seemed like it, but today's petrol and diesel engines make the arguments ( in the absence of artificial incentives ) for hybrid now less than compelling. There are electric charging stations all over Tokyo now, so I think the future vision for Japan is electric ( no hybrid ) transport and the domestic industry is all over this.
They say that Toyota's business plan goes forwards 300 years ...
Paul
The technology in the batteries is still not there and the cost of replacement is extremely high for what you get. A long life renewable resource is needed and to be honest hydrogen is the source scientists need to be playing with.
Heard something similar when I worked for Toyota way back when the Prius came out - that when the battery pack eventually goes, it would be uneconomical to repair.
Even with the lack of diesel cars here in Canada - I wouldn't have a hybrid if you paid me
So about the same price as a gearbox for a midsize BM, Audi or Merc
I'm not a huge fan, but the right Hybrid under the right circumstances makes excellent sense. Take a look at the new Lexus IS300h that's just been announced. I'm seriously considering one as my next company car (was otherwise planning a diesel 5 Series) which will justify me getting something 'interesting' for the weekends. 99g/km CO2 and about 220bhp, plus the F Sport doesn't look bad at all IMO. It's cheap to run on the company and the tax for me would be almost nil. I do about 25k miles per year too (personal, not company mileage) which means that with the fuel benefit included my total cost for the car and all my fuel would be about £100pm. Hard to turn down! But would I buy one as a personal vehicle rather than on the company? No.
I would go for one if I was in and out of the congestion zone every day, but modern small turbodiesels (and turbo petrols!) are just soooo good now that otherwise I don't see the point. You'll get an average of 55mpg+ combined from a focus ecoboost or leon TSI or similar (in that size category), and many of them are zero or 20 quid a year tax anyway.
I have had a few Toyota Prius not really very pretty but once you get the hang of them there are ok to drive, never had any problems with the battery's in fact the first one I had was 2 years old and done 80k the buyer was local to me and its still going strong!!
I had this one come in a couple of days ago
I took it home and its a much nicer drive than the Toyota £10 yearly road tax, 65mpg and no congestion charge !!
I love my Prius. Effortless to drive, 65 mpg and 10% BIK tax. Wouldn't have anything other than a hybrid now.
I've heard a lot of good things about the Prius. Only thing is, the shape is pretty unattractive (how's that for an oxymoron?) , even after the facelift of a few years ago. Not sure why companies don't seem to be investing in decent design for their hybrids - is it deliberate?!
The Lexus C200h though is quite nice-looking:
Charging stations seem to be all over the place these days. How practical is it having a hybrid car with the need to charge it every so often?
But be careful if you are thinking of getting one for the congestion charge exemption.
I believe this has now changed and it's purely based on the c02 levels.
You don't have to charge hybrids. The charging stations are for EVs.
We looked at the CT, however as it had only just come out you could not get one for under 19K.I've heard a lot of good things about the Prius. Only thing is, the shape is pretty unattractive (how's that for an oxymoron?) , even after the facelift of a few years ago. Not sure why companies don't seem to be investing in decent design for their hybrids - is it deliberate?!
The Lexus C200h though is quite nice-looking:
We picked up a 2.5 year old T5 Sprit (with everthing except leather) from a Toyota Dealer with less that 20K on the clock for £13K.
Remember its only the wifes car so no need to go mad .
She really loves it as a replacement to her Volvo V50 (2.3 petrol) - partly because the Prius as actually quicker, partly because she was getting about 30mpg and partly because it was costing her about £500/year in servicing and partly because her tax was about £260.
Serious no brainer for the wife, who does not keep a crap about steering wheel feedback, over steer or understeer, etc as long as it goes and stops.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Well I have got one of these, the 1st hybrid , Honda 2001 Insight . only about 200 in the country. Everything is aluminium weighs 750kgs. . Still the lowest CO2 of all .Best mileage is 93.5mpg over 530 miles - in france, germany motorways last summer. Lifetime mpg over 80000 mles is 73.4mpg.
~a future classic IMHO .
There are a lot of misconceptions about hybrids. However, the total life environmental impact is most definitely lower than a comparable petrol vehicle:
I've driven a CT200 and, basically, it drives like a (reasonably) sporty luxury hatchback. I've also driven the Peugeot 3008 Diesel hybrid (very nice) but have reservations re: buying a french car.The Argonne National Laboratory ran a side-by-side comparison of hybrid and conventional vehicles over their entire life cycle, which includes vehicle production, vehicle operation and the energy required to produce fuel for both cars. If you assume that both vehicles travel 160,000 miles (257,495 kilometers) over their lifetime, the conventional vehicle requires 6,500 Btu of energy per mile compared to 4,200 Btu per mile for a hybrid. That higher energy input results in far greater lifetime greenhouse gas emissions for conventional vehicles compared to hybrids, more than 1.1 pounds (500 grams) per mile compared to 0.75 pounds (340 grams) per mile [source: Burnham et al].
I've also had an RX450h and a GS 450h for a few days - both lovely.
I'll get a hybrid when I can afford one that has a large enough boot (My current car has 430 litres) and that doesn't compromise me too much on performance and luxury. This is solved with the new model GS (465 litres) but they are still too new to be an option for me. The new model Prius is nearly there (when specced up) but is a bit "pedestrian" whilst the CT200 has a smaller boot.
My advice would be to go for it.
Cheers,
Battery is expensive and needs to be replaced every x years.
As I said - a lot of misconceptions:
The important bits (essentially) are that a Prius with 200000 miles on the clock performs so nearly as well as one with 2000 that the difference is not noticeable (try that with a conventional car!) and that a replacement battery would be $2600 or less (from Toyota) or $500 for a salvaged one.
Cheers,
I had a joke with a woman Prius driver in Waitrose car park a couple of years ago- we parked next to each other- me in my Carrera 4s, we got out together and our eyes met....ooh I said "eco friendly" she said ,instantly grabbing the moral high ground, "hmmph bit more so than THAT"
Noticed her at the fish counter later, buying her fresh Tuna steaks, air freighted from Mauritius
ps I heard that the total life cycle costs don't make sense due to the deep-mined heavy metals for the cells from Canada having to get to Japan????
Goat
Last edited by GOAT; 7th March 2013 at 16:08.
From the quoted source ( which was very interesting ) :
PaulOur vehicle-cycle results revealed that the production of materials accounts for a majority of the energy use and emissions associated with all the vehicles.
The energy use and green house gas emissions that result from vehicle production and disposal of advanced-powertrain vehicles (Hybrid and Fuel Cell) may be greater than those for internal combustion engines because of (1) the use of energy- intensive materials in the fuel cell system, and (2) the increased use of aluminum in both the Hybrid and Fuel Cell
Well I have got one of these, the 1st hybrid , Honda 2001 Insight . only about 200 in the country. Everything is aluminium weighs 750kgs. . Still the lowest CO2 of all .Best mileage is 93.5mpg over 530 miles - in france, germany motorways last summer. Lifetime mpg over 80000 mles is 73.4mpg.
~a future classic IMHO .
Agree with the future classic!
Farther in law has a prius, he got it for tax reasons, he likes it enough but I cant say I am a huge fan might be nicer to drive than be a passenger in.
Mine has adaptive radar cruise and quite literally drives itself. Parks itself too. Not the car for people who love "motoring". But for those of us who just find it a chore, brilliant.
Rather than a hybrid an extended range electric makes more sense (like the Chevy Volt and Vauxhall Ampera).
You get your first 60 miles or what ever it is on full electric and there after the petrol engine cuts in to charge the battery. No "range anxiety" that you get in full electric cars and if you do trips under the range of the battery then you need never use a drop of fuel
I've driven a Chevy Volt quite a bit and it was really different to drive (very quiet) and it was very difficult to tell when you switched from full electric to cut the petrol motor in (which you can do at any time you want). Because it was so quiet it felt ever so refined and the electric motors give it bags and bags of torque.
I was sceptical before I drove one but was instantly won over by it.
Found a photo of the one the gf had for a bit (with my weekend toy)
Last edited by triumph coupe; 7th March 2013 at 20:20.
Not a hybrid ( so what am I doing posting on this thread?) but I liked the idea of an electric car for my wifes everyday wheels as she does minimal mileage and it would be ideal. Her Colt was in at Mitsubishi for a service and we had a look at the funky little car they do.... £30K!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!
Taking the wee-wee somewhat!
electric/hybrid would be ideal for us, but the cost/lifespan just doesn't add up to an economy petrol car.
Here's mine, in traditional holier-than-thou white.
The pius PriusHere's mine, in traditional holier-than-thou white.
SWIMO is kick ass Silver
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Possibly the most substantiated point ever made on TZUK. 10/10.
"Bite my shiny metal ass."
- Bender Bending Rodríguez
A new battery for Porsche is x + £200 (inc VAT) just put it into perspective
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Is that the Cayenne S hybrid, Technology under licence from ToyotaA new battery for Porsche is x + £200 (inc VAT) just put it into perspective
Try driving one you need kidney pads, there bloody awful,I've heard a lot of good things about the Prius. Only thing is, the shape is pretty unattractive (how's that for an oxymoron?) , even after the facelift of a few years ago. Not sure why companies don't seem to be investing in decent design for their hybrids - is it deliberate?!
The Lexus C200h though is quite nice-looking:
Lexus got together and said "Ok guys we build luxury cars, lets build a crap one.
fiddly girly gear lever, stupid display changes colour when under acceleration (says POWER) on screen no gear changes like a rev and go, could have fooled me, battery's crap lasts for about 2 mins then dies, leaves you dead in the road and you have to restart, the suspension bone shaker, get me back into my 430.
Last edited by Fords; 8th March 2013 at 16:58.
I`ve never considered a hybrid. I don`t do much mileage and I drive a Jag XF 3.0 diesel which isn`t cheap to run, but I enjoy it a lot.
I`ve been a passenger in a Prius and I was mildly impressed; a former work colleague owned a high-spec one (for which he paid a lot) and he sung it's praises.
I would be looking at the total cost of ownership over a 5-6 year period, including depreciation. If that stacked up I might consider one if my priorities were different and I was doing a lot more miles. Somehow, I think I`d end up with a Golf 2.0 diesel but that's just a gut feeling!
Until the economic argument for owning one adds up, people won`t be swayed. The technology's pretty impressive........but does the 'cost of ownership' equation add up? I`d be worried about depreciation; waht are they worth 6-7 year old cars and how do the values compare to a similar sized diesel car?
I don`t have a beard, I`m not eco-friendly and I don`t live on lentils and beans; I`ll stick to the Jag for now........even though it 'likes a drink', a factor I have in common with it.
Paul
It certainly does if you're a company car driver — 10% BIK instead of 40%.
The Vauxhall Ampera / Chevrolet Volt seem to be the most promising.
Yet I think I'll wait for a diesel-electric. I assume that when the internal combustion engine does kick in it runs at a constant speed to charge the battery which suggests that a suitable diesel would be yet more efficient.
Mike.
If most of your trips are less than the range of the battery (and most people's trips are) it would not matter... no fuel used ;)
Mercedes have recently unveiled the new E300 which is a 2.2 litre diesel hybrid. It'll be available in saloon and estate versions which will have plenty of space and excellent fuel economy (the E220 does over 50mpg anyway). It's going to be about £40k though so about five grand over the E220.
Particularly if one has no interest in cars and are happy to drive the dullest thing on the planet....
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Or you could have a perfectly lovely golf diesel at 13% BIK - it's not a case of Prius or 40% :)
Diesel's strictly for taxis, trucks and tractors. Filthy fuel. No thanks.
And the inferior 'carbon footprint' of your Prius?
Man, are you a Hollywood Star?........
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Diesel wins Le Mans!
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