Reply With QuoteA bit on th pricey side for a Citizen.
Has anyone seen these watches? They look really well made, but I always wonder about the quality of Japanese bracelets.
http://www.hodinkee.com/?category=Citizen
A bit on th pricey side for a Citizen.
Love the look, but if Grand Seikos are a hard sell to people who associate Seiko with 20£ watches, the Citizen will have even more of a problem
I've never heard anyone complain about the bracelet on the quartz Chronomasters, which look similar. Why worry about Japanese bracelets?
I think they will be excellent if what I have seen of their Singnature Eco Drive watches are anything to go by, watches however is so much about the 'percieved prestige/image' of a brand that it will be difficult for them to break into this market, I wonder how they will compare with the higher end Seiko models?
I've seen these. ( The linked article is over 2 years old ). I compared with the Grand Seiko and preferred ... the Seiko. There wasn't much in it, but Seiko has better history with autos in my opinion, and their dial work is unsurpassed at the price.
I prefer the Citizen quartz over the equivalent Grand Seiko. The 10 year VIP warranty on the Citizen quartz is good, and includes 2 free service checks ( not free services - anything needing doing is chargeable ) in that time. I'm not sure if it's the same on the autos, but I'd expect so.
Paul
The design is pretty much the same as the equivalent Grand Seiko models but without the history behind it. Crucially, the Citizen only has a 42 hour power reserve, whereas the Grand Seiko has 72 hours - which means you can leave it unworn over the weekend and pick it up, still running, on the Monday.
Thanks for that, they do seem to be priced better than the GS, if I have worked it out correctly they should sell for just over £2KOriginally Posted by Tokyo Tokei
Less than £2K I'd think. Remember Japanese watches ( inc. GS and The Citizen ) are all discounted 25%~30% from list at retail.
Paul
You can buy GS in Japan for just over 2k, I did.
I've read some good reviews about that watch, but since it is that expensive, I would rather buy a GS even if the Citizen is a great watch.
Looks very nice but 37mm is to small for me.
$3,000 (US dollars ?) , I cannot see them catching on, very strange decision to make them so small, a mid-size so for both sexes ?
i think i'd need to see one up close or at least some real decent pix & an unbiased review, if the movement is any way comparable, then its a bargain comapred to a GS (but i doubt it would be a favourable comparison - don't know why)
Hi CH
Can you explain why you, "wonder about the quality of Japanese bracelets"?
Thanks,
Alex
On every Japanese watch I've handled the quality and feel are way below their Swiss counterparts.
i replaced the bracelet on my citizen for a leather strap. the bracelet would just fall apart as one of the pins just would not hold it together anymore, and that was probably about 2 years after i bought the watch when the bracelt started to malfunction. however that was 20 years ago give or take.
it wouldn't be an issue for me if i bought another japanese watch with a bracelet now, whether it is a seiko or a citizen.
Really too expensive for me, I would prefer to go the GS route if I was going to spend that amount of money on Japanese Watch.
It's a classic size for a classic design sports/dress watch. that size hasn't done Grand Seiko or Rolex or Omega any harm with comparable models. Of course if you are used only to oversized divers then it will seem small but remember there is no wide bezel so it's mostly dial.
Correct. There is not a cat in hells chance that I would part with my money for one or for a Grand Seiko
You can't have handled too many high end Japanese watches then. Seiko's beads of rice bracelet found on the SBGW035 in particular is a work of art; the photo below details watch and bracelet.
Consider that, effectively, seven pieces make up one link, each piece in the link individually hand polished and then secured with screws...
...I've found that Grand Seiko bracelets feature quality on par with Audemars Piguet.
At the other end of the spectrum, the bracelet on this £150 watch...
...is a match for that on my brothers Superocean in terms of construction. OK it doesn't have the same lustrous finish, but with solid end links and screwed links, at this price point their isn't a Swiss brand that can compete.
The GS bracelet may well be of a certain quality, but it's fugly as hell, I've handle the citizen bracelet and it does not equal any Breitling that I've ever bought, and I've had several.You can't have handled too many high end Japanese watches then. Seiko's beads of rice bracelet found on the SBGW035 in particular is a work of art; the photo below details watch and bracelet.
Consider that, effectively, seven pieces make up one link, each piece in the link individually hand polished and then secured with screws...
...I've found that Grand Seiko bracelets feature quality on par with Audemars Piguet.
At the other end of the spectrum, the bracelet on this £150 watch...
...is a match for that on my brothers Superocean in terms of construction. OK it doesn't have the same lustrous finish, but with solid end links and screwed links, at this price point their isn't a Swiss brand that can compete.
I've never seen or handled a Seiko bracelet, from any of their range, that I have liked or thought felt expensive - never mind AP expensive. I would say my Breitling bracelet could be a lot better though ;)
It's just a matter of time...
Hi Om,
I don't want to sound like a Seiko troll or Japanese product acolyte because I'm not, I'm a watch lover first and foremost, but this objection I find across the watch fora toward high end Japanese watches is, well, odd.
I'm sure I'm like most of you here in that we've trawled through the watch shops in the West End or wherever it is you live and handled offerings from every maker out there at many differing price points. Or you've been lucky enough to meet the brands involved and seen the working practices etc and seen the craftsmen who create such products at work first hand.
Based on this, it's clear to me that Grand Seiko in particular holds it's own (and often exceeds) that on offer from brands battling for a specific buyer at this elevated level in the market. I'll concede that image is key at the elevated price levels GS operates in and for many, the image of Seiko and Japanese products as a whole is, shall we say, poor and that that breeds a contemptuous attitude toward the country's products, especially products pitched at the pricer end of the market.
But when the Japanese focus on excellence there's not many countries and industries within those countries that can live with such a fastidious level of detail, design and expertise applied by our friends from East Asia.
Best,
Alex
Alex,
It's this "fastidious level of detail and design" that is their undoing, your GS example is a perfect example of this, with the result you end up with a bracelet that looks like it has been designed by a committee.
For me the best bracelets are strong, simple designs that will last, here's my Pam on the new style bracelet, it's incredible secure, The Seiko offering looks too fragile and does not look like it would not stand up to much wear and tear.
That beads of rice bracelet is lovely!You can't have handled too many high end Japanese watches then. Seiko's beads of rice bracelet found on the SBGW035 in particular is a work of art; the photo below details watch and bracelet.
Consider that, effectively, seven pieces make up one link, each piece in the link individually hand polished and then secured with screws...
...I've found that Grand Seiko bracelets feature quality on par with Audemars Piguet.
At the other end of the spectrum, the bracelet on this £150 watch...
...is a match for that on my brothers Superocean in terms of construction. OK it doesn't have the same lustrous finish, but with solid end links and screwed links, at this price point their isn't a Swiss brand that can compete.
Well that's just, like, your opinion man. In my opinion, all modern Breitlings looks fugly and tasteless...
The GS is a beautifully engineered piece -a true testament to the attention to quality and materials which is massively undervalued by those not in the know...
Hi CH,Alex,
It's this "fastidious level of detail and design" that is their undoing, your GS example is a perfect example of this, with the result you end up with a bracelet that looks like it has been designed by a committee.
For me the best bracelets are strong, simple designs that will last, here's my Pam on the new style bracelet, it's incredible secure, The Seiko offering looks too fragile and does not look like it would not stand up to much wear and tear.
Taste is, I'm sure you'll agree, subjective; "...everyone thinks they have the prettiest wife at home" said Arsene Wenger a while back or words to that effect.
I wouldn't place a sport watch like your Panerai in the same bracket as the GS above, but if you look at something like the SBGE001 or as we've discussed before the GS diver which fit the same profile, the build quality is outstanding and the longevity is, to my mind beyond reproach considering my own experience with vintage Seiko watches (I'm sure Neil C of these here parts will agree on the vintage front).
Let's also not forget that up until 10 years ago, Panerai was an "upstart" niche brand, so to suggest that Seiko has a way to go before meeting the fashionable Italian brand in terms of build quality and longevity is a touch naive.
And you'll also find King Seiko's (the period equivalent to the SBGW035 above), Weekdaters, chrono's, Bellmatics et al from the 1960's still around and in excellent mechanical condition, keeping excellent time, which is a testament to again the longevity and that fastidious level of design I was banging on about earlier.
Best,
Alex
Last edited by Fatpants; 29th January 2013 at 23:19.
Lately I've been comparing the bracelets of the GS quartz with that of the Omega Aqua Terra quartz, which wears the same bracelet as the midsize chronometer, the Skyfall watch - so certainly a decent modern Omega bracelet (really must get that camera out soon!). At first I was nervous of the lightness of the GS bracelet, and impressed by the super heavy weight solidity of the Omega. Then I gradually realised that the GS sits perfectly and is incredibly comfortable, while I'm still adjusting links on the Omega trying to find a good fit.
Tomorrow I hope to finally crack the fit after another visit to the AD, but I'm starting to question my first impressions, as the GS is one of the most comfortable watches I have ever owned. The slightly raised centre links are very subtle, and the Japanese clearly made a light bracelet for a reason. We'll see if I can get the Omega to fit without a few lumps caused by the butterfly clasp, and I suspect I may end up with a looser fit than I would wish. Obviously this is all a factor of wrist size, and I'd suggest the GS probably works better for those with a smaller wrist.
As for ruggedness, the Omega seems extremely sturdy, and might win if the watch has a very hard life with a lot of impacts. But I'm not going to jump to conclusions on that, ask me in ten years.
Overall, from a workmanship point of view there's very little between them. The GS movement is clearly vastly superior, running at +3 seconds a year so far, with instant date change, while the AT fights back with independent hour hand adjustment. As for arguing over the quality of the workmanship and finishing, I think it can get a little silly. Frankly in this price bracket, I'd expect manufacturers to be capable of making a bracelet and a case with some polishing and brushing that fits and doesn't fall apart. Even my kettle has nice brushing on it. In summary, the GS is better because it's light, and the Omega is better because it's heavy. So which has the best bracelet? Well, the Oysterquartz has, obviously...!
Last edited by Itsguy; 30th January 2013 at 01:09.
I don't think you should worry about panerai as a brand, i certainly don't. Im more worried about how well these seiko bracelet will hold up after a period of time, i will be able to look and these tomorrow when i visit the ad but from what ive seen in the past they are flimbsy when compared against some others in the price range.
And that bracelet from the Italian fashion brand looks suspiciously similar to the Seiko Monster bracelet....Alex,
It's this "fastidious level of detail and design" that is their undoing, your GS example is a perfect example of this, with the result you end up with a bracelet that looks like it has been designed by a committee.
For me the best bracelets are strong, simple designs that will last, here's my Pam on the new style bracelet, it's incredible secure, The Seiko offering looks too fragile and does not look like it would not stand up to much wear and tear.
Bracelets my arse!
The fact that the links are not huge and fat, and the clasp enormous, doesn't alter the fact that these bracelets are very well made.
Don't you worry cap, they will outlast you, and a few siblings.
I've handled both GS and Chronomaster bracelets and they are just as well made as any of the big Swiss.
And, with all the flipping, what do we care about long lasting bracelets???, the watch will be flipped before even a tiny scratch has managed to appear on the scratch-proof case............
Daddel.
Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!
There's no question that they are lighter than the thick, solid links of an Omega AT, which is a reasonable point of comparison, but it's debatable if weight itself is a good thing. They do feel a little like the Rolex Oyster bracelets of the 60s, which turned out to have an alarming tendency to stretch and dent if the watch had a hard life, but I wouldn't be surprised if in 2013 the Japanese had learned to overcome these 50 year old issues, and make a bracelet that's reasonably light without it disintegrating. After wearing the GS, you do wonder if the AT needs to be quite so heavy - it has actually made my wrist ache on occasion. There's no doubt it will withstand a life of extreme sports and hand to hand combat, though the GS is perhaps intended to be a little more dressy.
It might be worth defining the criteria we're using to judge a watch bracelet. Fit, finish, comfort, style, ruggedness, and longevity are all relevant, while weight could be a plus or a minus. In the case of the GS vs AT, the finish may be slightly ahead on the GS, with a subtle variation in the brushing that's very appealing, though there's not much in it and it's really a matter of taste. The Omega achieves a flatter clasp, though at the expense of a double butterfly that tends to cause lumps if your wrist size necessitates a half link, so the GS may also win there. The lightness of the GS, together with soft rounded edges also puts it ahead on comfort. Style is a matter of taste, the AT is thick and manly, the GS is subtle and refined, I'd call it a draw. On ruggedness and longevity, I'd have no doubts whatsoever on the Omega, as I have a mid-70s solid link Seamaster that's clearly taken a few knocks to the bracelet with very little complaint. These designs certainly inspire confidence. But I'm not jumping to conclusions about the Seiko - you may be right, but I would really want to see how it holds up 20 years down the line before equating light with flimsy. How long have these latest GS designs been around? What does experience tell us with previous generations? I'd be interested to know.
Oh - and as for the OPs Citizen, it seems GS and Citizen are competing head to head on specs in the Japanese market, with the Citizen quartz actually being ahead in terms of offering a perpetual, with adjustable hour hand, that's even more accurate than the 9F. But while that's more or less the perfect spec for a high end quartz, I just couldn't do it. Stylistically, and in terms of having some brand heritage, the GS just seems more convincing. I guess we've more or less got used to the idea of high end Seiko, but it's back to the beginning again with Citizen for me. I know I'm being just as shallow as the people who automatically write off Seiko, but there it is - it will be a very long time before I can get used to the idea a Citizen logo on my wrist. Guess I'm a brand snob after all!
Last edited by Itsguy; 30th January 2013 at 11:49.
Nothing wrong with admitting being a brandsnob.
As long as not every attempt for a high-end watch by a brand not known for high-end watches is automatically being received as to expensive, less quality etc.
Healthy discussion about the specs and it being worth the money for those specs are good.
Daddel.
Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!
These Citizen watches ( and the GS ) are aimed at the affluent Japanese male. The sort of well-dressed, discreetly successful businessman who drives a luxury Japanese car, owns a Panasonic television, a Denon hi-fi, a Sony laptop, a Sharp fridge and a Toshiba rice cooker. The key is, Japanese. All those references to katana ( swords ) and zaratsu finishing are an appeal to the Japanese sense of craftsmanship and history.
A more direct advert I saw quite recently ( for Seiko ) simply said "perfect (size) for the Japanese". A not so subtle dig at the over-size Western watches that can look daft on the ( generally ) smaller framed. It's irrelevant to compare ( say ) a Panerai to The Citizen. Like comparing a Jeep Cherokee to a Lexus. Of course the bracelet is thicker. It's not a discreet watch, like the Jeep is not a discreet car. The GS and The Citizen offer the affluent Japanese purchaser a bit of luxury, refined craftsmanship and history that is all home-made, with Japanese levels of service at time of purchase and subsequently. The recipe is not intended to travel, though many outside Japan also appreciate it.
I think Citizen, if they weren't aiming these solely at the Japanese, would do well to put their super quartz module in a high end diver. They have the history, lots of current divers use Citizen watches, and they clearly have the technology. The foreign market loves a chunky diver, and the WIS lot would be all over the HEQ.
In the meantime, these subtle models remain mainly a Japanese thing.
Paul
Hi Alex
SBGE001 is a good one to use for a comparison, as you have named it in your previous post - I felt that the bracelet and clasp felt cheap and the one point that let the watch down for me. & note I have still placed this watch in my top 10.
I am not denying the bracelets are better than some and the clasp better than some - but the comparisons being made are not justified in my experience. I am no brand snob - I do have a preference for 2 particular brands, however I am fully aware of their failings. But I have owned and still own a lot of brands including Seiko, Grand Seiko and Seiko Spring Drives - they aren't cheap Jap crap but there is something missing for me and it isn't Swiss soul!
It's just a matter of time...
After a cup of tea at the AD my Omega bracelet issues are completely resolved, so I'll have to eat my words. It's an excellent bit of kit both on land and under the sea, and will clearly survive fight scenes and car chases while still impressing the ladies at the casino, for decades to come. As Tokyo Tokei suggests, the GS will most often have to survive a long meeting and ten hours in front of a computer, followed by a gruelling commute on the Tokyo metro and looking good at dinner with the boss. No doubt its (slightly less delusional) owner would prefer a lighter bracelet that's built for comfort. I'm probably in the 'you know where you are with solid links' camp, but I'm happy with both in their different ways and don't see a quality issue on either side. As for the OP's Citizen bracelets, I don't have a clue, sorry for the thread hijack! But let's face it, TZ can't resist a GS argument, if it was a discussion about sushi it would probably end there.
Last edited by Itsguy; 30th January 2013 at 20:48.
Thanks for the response,
obviously everyone has differing ideas on what determines quality and craftsmanship; as for "soul", that's not something I go for in any sense of the word - I find the concept fatuous, but that's just me.
Best,
Alex
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