This is how it all starts

[Daddelvirks]

The case is the easy part, it's the movements which are difficult to get. It could be made with either a Valjoux 7753 or ETA 2894 (current movements) or Valjoux 72 and Valjoux 7736 in obsolete movements. Nothing available at the moment though.

Eddie

If it only came with the Valjoux 72....................oh boy what a cracker it would be...........

Daddel.

[2kilo]

these are not primitive 2d sketches and they cost you a fortune, but we provide our clients this service for almost nothing

hmmm.... I happen to create and visualize point of sale in 2D and 3D for a living, and "photo realistic" these are not, they are OK, average, quickies. One day max to build the model, less if you have the bracelet already done, day rate of £350 in my field, after that changing dials is done in minutes, £60 an hour as per set of amends...

this is high end by tim cooper[way better than me, and expensive]
http://www.behance.net/gallery/3D-Mo...Imagery/250315

[swanbourne]

I am also so sorry that this project didn't work oput with Eddie. I am the manufacturer who proposed this to Eddie and we did everything possible to make it happen. The DD 2047 is such a nice precision movement and a watchmodel with this historical background combined with that movement would definitely been a Jewel in the Timefactors collection. It was not the first project which Eddie and me started but failed to finish. I remember we had 3 in total. I don't think that the country of origin was ever the problem for Eddie to back from these projects ( all of our watches are beeing delivered from Switzerland with country of origin certificate, issued by the chamber of commerce) Very often it was the quantity which was too low or the price which appeared him too high but it turned out that going with other suppliers was at the end much more expensive to him. We are a cooperation of 3 independent companies and we manufacture our own movements as well as complete watches (for highly recognized brands). The renderings which we made these projects cost a certain sum, that is right but in case we get the order we credit the client 50% of that sum. As you can understand from the renderings, these are not primitive 2d sketches and they cost you a fortune, but we provide our clients this service for almost nothing. So i cannot understand why we should make a living by just providing sketches. We are selling watches not sketches.
again, I would have loved to manufacture this model but unfortunately it didn't work out. The movements are no longer available and ordering new movements of the same calibre would be at least 80% more expensive than these ones. Using 7753 and 2894 is also more expensive at lower quality.

I was very keen to proceed with this one but didn't always receive the answers I required to give me confidence. I have never dealt with this supplier before and so I was perhaps being over-cautious but when I'm told that they don't actually own the movements to be used in this watch and they are pushing for me to pay the deposit, I need a more positive response to my question regarding movement availability than "first come, first served". I can't imagine what would have happened if I'd fired off 27,000 euros to Turkey only to discover the movements were no longer available.

I'm not suggesting for a minute that there was anything underhand going on, just stating that this isn't the way I'm used to conducting business. The statement above is the first indication I've had that the movements are no longer available and this statement comes 2 days after I was asked to send the money. If it was straightforward and unambiguous, the payment would have been made. I'm certainly disappointed.

Eddie

[smyrna]

I was very keen to proceed with this one but didn't always receive the answers I required to give me confidence. I have never dealt with this supplier before and so I was perhaps being over-cautious but when I'm told that they don't actually own the movements to be used in this watch and they are pushing for me to pay the deposit, I need a more positive response to my question regarding movement availability than "first come, first served". I can't imagine what would have happened if I'd fired off 27,000 euros to Turkey only to discover the movements were no longer available.

I'm not suggesting for a minute that there was anything underhand going on, just stating that this isn't the way I'm used to conducting business. The statement above is the first indication I've had that the movements are no longer available and this statement comes 2 days after I was asked to send the money. If it was straightforward and unambiguous, the payment would have been made. I'm certainly disappointed.

Eddie

yes you are right eddie. but this was the reason why i always asked you to ask me for availability before sending the money. after you told me that you had no money i just asked you to send 6k to make sure that we reserve the movements for you. we were talking about that project for more than 6 weeks and so far we did not make any commitments to the most essential part of the watch (its movement). we are not the owners of that movements and so i need to ask for availability before i ask you to pay for it. you failed to pay on wednesday and friday. after you asked me to wait till monday, i contacted you on monday and you were asking me to wait until the end of the week. my supplier did the only normal thing by telling me first comes first. i know which kind of business you are used to. the bad experiences you made, you never experienced with us nor with a company from turkey. the swiss and the germans were the ones who messed things up with you. never forget this. eddie, i am so sorry that this didnt work out. i really would have seen this project becoming reality. we offered this to the other client now and he is gonna go for it. but the movements are no longer available. we have to use modified 7750 for them and these cost almost double of the price of the dd s. nd these are by far not as beautiful as the dd s. you can still produce this watch with the 2894 which is available if you do a proper marketresearch.

[smyrna]

hmmm.... I happen to create and visualize point of sale in 2D and 3D for a living, and "photo realistic" these are not, they are OK, average, quickies. One day max to build the model, less if you have the bracelet already done, day rate of £350 in my field, after that changing dials is done in minutes, £60 an hour as per set of amends...

this is high end [way better than me, and expensive]
http://www.behance.net/gallery/3D-Mo...Imagery/250315

wow, your 3d sketches look wonderful. just need one thing to mention, we do not do 3d renderings only. there is a process of deisgning too. we do not simply have something existing converted to 3d. all the construction and design jobs need to be made before converting our construction plan into 3d. you can have a closer look on our website to have an impression of how we work: www.signstimemovements.com
maybe in the future you can do the rendering jobs for eddie

[2kilo]

Sadly not my work but a bloke called tim cooper amazing stuff...

[smyrna]

Sadly not my work but a bloke called tim cooper amazing stuff...

thought it was you because you wrote prices.

[jmeizosopaz]

Absolut design for this Chrono.

[swanbourne]

I'm very disappointed to discover that the design renderings I paid for are now being touted around and it looks like someone else is picking up the project. It isn't dead for me, when I find movements it's still going ahead.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...7318271&type=1

Eddie

[Marios]

^Unbelievable. Presumably he must have paid for the same renders too!

[swanbourne]

^Unbelievable. Presumably he must have paid for the same renders too!

Apparently he has!

Eddie

[gasgasbones]

But if you commissioned the drawings and paid for them don't they belong to you ?

[Palma]

I am very happy to learn that you plan to go ahead with this project when you find the movements for it.

[drhexagon]

I'm very disappointed to discover that the design renderings I paid for are now being touted around and it looks like someone else is picking up the project. It isn't dead for me, when I find movements it's still going ahead.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...7318271&type=1

Eddie

Don't you have any legal recourse?

[swanbourne]

Don't you have any legal recourse?

I have to take a commercial decision whether it's worth it, we're not dealing with the EU here.

Eddie

[trisdg]

But if you commissioned the drawings and paid for them don't they belong to you ?

That's exactly what I was thinking

[AM94]

That's exactly what I was thinking

Reading between the lines, and perhaps I am incorrect, Eddie's comment seems to suggest that perhaps whomever has prepared the renders has sold them twice (once to Eddie and again, if the chap on Facebook is telling the truth, to him)...

[swanbourne]

Reading between the lines, and perhaps I am incorrect, Eddie's comment seems to suggest that perhaps whomever has prepared the renders has sold them twice (once to Eddie and again, if the chap on Facebook is telling the truth, to him)...

That's how it looks at the moment.

Eddie

[lambstew]

Brick Top: You're always gonna have problems lifting a body in one
piece. Apparently the best thing to do is cut up a corpse into six
pieces and pile it all together.

Sol: Would someone mind telling me, who are you?

Brick Top: And when you got your six pieces, you gotta get rid of
them, because its no good leaving it in the deep freeze for your
mum to discover, now is it? Then I hear the best thing to do is
feed them to pigs. You got to starve the pigs for a few days, then
the sight of a chopped-up body will look like curry to a pisshead.
You gotta shave the heads of your victims, and pull the teeth out
for the sake of the piggies digestion. You could do this
afterwards, of course, but you don't want to go sieving through pig
shit, now do you? They will go through bone like butter. You need
at least sixteen pigs to finish the job in one sitting, so be wary
of any man who keeps a pig farm. They will go through a body that
weighs 200 pounds in about eight minutes. That means that a single
pig can consume two pounds of uncooked flesh every minute. Hence
the expression, "as greedy as a pig".

[swanbourne]

Brick Top: You're always gonna have problems lifting a body in one
piece. Apparently the best thing to do is cut up a corpse into six
pieces and pile it all together.

Sol: Would someone mind telling me, who are you?

Brick Top: And when you got your six pieces, you gotta get rid of
them, because its no good leaving it in the deep freeze for your
mum to discover, now is it? Then I hear the best thing to do is
feed them to pigs. You got to starve the pigs for a few days, then
the sight of a chopped-up body will look like curry to a pisshead.
You gotta shave the heads of your victims, and pull the teeth out
for the sake of the piggies digestion. You could do this
afterwards, of course, but you don't want to go sieving through pig
shit, now do you? They will go through bone like butter. You need
at least sixteen pigs to finish the job in one sitting, so be wary
of any man who keeps a pig farm. They will go through a body that
weighs 200 pounds in about eight minutes. That means that a single
pig can consume two pounds of uncooked flesh every minute. Hence
the expression, "as greedy as a pig".

Is anyone going to explain this before I delete it?

Eddie

[lambstew]

Is anyone going to explain this before I delete it?

Eddie

..I thought this scene from the movie appropriate re: the drawing

[swanbourne]

..I thought this scene from the movie appropriate re: the drawing

Not exactly an obvious connection there.

Eddie

[Foxy100]

Unfortunately copyright isn't automatically transferred to you when you buy an image, even if you commission it and tell the artist what you want the picture to look like. So it's not actually illegal for the artist, or whoever owns the images, to sell on the drawings to someone else.

[aldfort]

Eddie - I take it you've complained to Facebook?

Perhaps a few more of the members here might do the same thing?

[aldfort]

Unfortunately copyright isn't automatically transferred to you when you buy an image, even if you commission it and tell the artist what you want the picture to look like. So it's not actually illegal for the artist, or whoever owns the images, to sell on the drawings to someone else.

Actually it depends on the wording of the conract the artist was working under. If the contract makes it clear that he does not hold the rights to the drawing or if he's interpreted the renders from sketches then he or she is in breach.

[Foxy100]

Actually it depends on the wording of the conract the artist was working under. If the contract makes it clear that he does not hold the rights to the drawing or if he's interpreted the renders from sketches then he or she is in breach.

Quite. All I'm saying is that it isn't automatically handed over to whoever is paying for the drawings.

[swanbourne]

Eddie - I take it you've complained to Facebook?

Perhaps a few more of the members here might do the same thing?

I was happy working with him on the design. I accepted that he was working out of Germany and the watches would be made in Switzerland but I bottled out when he asked me to send a shed-load of money to Turkey. Perhaps I should have been suspicious when I sent money to Turkey for the renders but he said that was where the artist worked.

Eddie

[pugster]

cant you just ask the designer? , tbh i find the following quote funny from smyrna 'i just asked you to send 6k to make sure that we reserve the movements for you'.
.....just send 6k , lol , tbh eddie i dont blame you for being cautious when things like that are posted in a public forum :)

[BrianT]

As a newcomer I spotted this thread and started reading it from end to end. I got more and more excited as the project gathered momentum. I kept going and the " must have, don't care" pain increased. Then complete deflation, oh dear what a crying shame. Surely there must be a movement available?

[number2]

As a newcomer I spotted this thread and started reading it from end to end. I got more and more excited as the project gathered momentum. I kept going and the " must have, don't care" pain increased. Then complete deflation, oh dear what a crying shame. Surely there must be a movement available?

+1 this,
Only just read all the way through and up to a page back was waiting for the ''Place your orders here chaps'' section, big let down for me and im sure a let down for TF, but i think you made the right call chief as it began to sound just a bit iffy, anyhow when you find the right movement reserve a white dial for me please.

[swanbourne]

I was never completely happy working with a modular movement because of the issue of the pushers not being in line with the crown. I think I may have found some Swiss non-modular movements with registers at 3, 6 & 9.

Eddie

[Jeroen]

................ I think I may have found some Swiss non-modular movements with registers at 3, 6 & 9. Eddie

Now that would be good news Eddie, I hope this will go well for you

(and we'll see something like this)

[krawl]

I spotted this watch on the Time Factors Facebook page and after not finding on the website for sale, I consulted the forum only to read the thread in its entirety. I hope the project comes to fruition as I had decided that this would be my first chrono. Well, this or a Damasko - two very different looks, but both appealing.
Cheers

[Daddelvirks]

I was never completely happy working with a modular movement because of the issue of the pushers not being in line with the crown. I think I may have found some Swiss non-modular movements with registers at 3, 6 & 9.

Eddie

Well, that's good news indeed!

Daddel.

[silvax]

Hi Eddie,
+1 thinking it´s great news!!
How long does a typical design - refine - prototype - production - start selling process take?
Cheers,
Ricardo

[swanbourne]

Hi Eddie,
+1 thinking it´s great news!!
How long does a typical design - refine - prototype - production - start selling process take?
Cheers,
Ricardo

It's a black art.

Eddie

[Inq24]

I was never completely happy working with a modular movement because of the issue of the pushers not being in line with the crown. I think I may have found some Swiss non-modular movements with registers at 3, 6 & 9.

Eddie

Eta 7753? Great movement but pretty expensive nowadays.

[swanbourne]

Eta 7753? Great movement but pretty expensive nowadays.

You got that right :-(.

Eddie

[watchcollector1]

This is a very exciting project!

Could it have a black 6263 style dial like this one (or failing that the panda version)? Then it would be perfect!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xmfCrC2Ttc...-Old-Stock.jpg

[ROBANNENAGY]

I was never completely happy working with a modular movement because of the issue of the pushers not being in line with the crown. I think I may have found some Swiss non-modular movements with registers at 3, 6 & 9.

Eddie

I have a Sinn with a Valjoux 7750 Tricompax movement, the subdials are arranged 3, 6 & 9, is that the same movement as the 7753?

Also If you go ahead with this, can I suggest the name 'Smiths - Silverstone', I think it has to be named after a UK racing track, also Silverstone sounds classy.

[41northpole]

http://www.behance.net/gallery/3D-Mo...Imagery/250315[/QUOTE]

WOW

Tim

[Qatar-wol]

Also If you go ahead with this, can I suggest the name 'Smiths - Silverstone', I think it has to be named after a UK racing track, also Silverstone sounds classy.

Nice idea, but Silverstone has already been used by Graham.

[Crazytrain]

Nice idea, but Silverstone has already been used by Graham.

Could use Mallory, also a British race track and an (admittedly tenuous) link to Smiths via Everest...

[Rollon]

"Rally" (or "Rallye" [?]) maybe? I imagine that burst of creativity on my part has been used by one and a dozen companies for their race oriented chronos over the years but this watch makes me think Timefactor's own small hole perforated "Rally" strap would be a perfect choice for this one, or my choice were it mine most likely, so why not. Well, not unless it would be a copyright, etc., legal problem for Eddie I'm unaware of anyway.

The watch itself looks like it might turn out so well, if Eddie can get the right movements of choice for it, that you could call this the Smiths "Nascar Special" and even the most sophisticated devotees of classic European motor racing would like it I think.

For whatever subjective reason, the dial face format I seem to find most aesthetically appealing to me is the light tan dial/black subdial/dark blood red chapter ring/black bezel insert version having gold [plated spring steel] hands and gold [plated] hour indice markers, maybe, as with the original Rolex Cosmograph "Daytona" that Learningtofly showed earlier in this thread:

Very much like...

And also for what it's worth, though I might be alone about it, the way this watch has been shown here with the different ways of fonting "Smiths" I seem to like best is as Eddie earlier put up, but with the crowned and stylistically bridge-like curved "Smiths" having "Sheffield" its foundation in place of "England" [exactly as rendered on the recent "Two More Smiths" project thread at: http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...wo-more-Smiths], the red font "Chronometer" deleted, and "England" (or perhaps even "England Rally") moved to atop the hour subdial just below the hands' "axle" where Rolex placed "Daytona" in the same manner.

Eddie

And I probably missed the explanation somewhere earlier, but why is it that this particular PN Daytona homage project's rendered pictures show "Swiss Made" instead of Timefactor's now seemingly standard, but special and I think currently horologically unique, "Great Britain" in its place? I ask because it almost seems to me to be worth going through the same provenance defining manufacture route as the Smiths Military and Speedbird III, etc., if for no other reason than the "Great Britain" at the bottom edge of the dial alone because of its intrinsic value and nostalgic appeal to buyers remembering some great history, horological and otherwise.

[Glamdring]

Probably not an issue for many, but age and eyesight mean that silver hands on white are hard to read. I'd suggested faceted hands.

[AM94]

Also If you go ahead with this, can I suggest the name 'Smiths - Silverstone', I think it has to be named after a UK racing track, also Silverstone sounds classy.

If Eddie decides to go down the motorsport heritage route, might I suggest Brooklands as a suitable name!

The home of UK motorsport (in fact the first purpose built motorsport venue in the world!) and also the UKs largest aircraft manufacturing centre by 1918.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooklands

[ghosty]

great news eddie, get me at the top of the list please, i cant wait!

[swanbourne]

Silverstone is registered (but not to Graham), as is Mallory and Brooklands. Snetterton isn't ;-).

Eddie

[Dazzler]

I think you should work in collaboration with James May on this one. Be great TV.

[ROBANNENAGY]

Silverstone is registered (but not to Graham), as is Mallory and Brooklands. Snetterton isn't ;-).

Eddie

What about Thruxton?