Watch advertising and marketing

[Itsguy]

So you want high-end watch for mid-range money.... true theres a market, called "cheapskates", doesnt sound very lucrative to pursuit... which most watchmakers realised I guess.

Also, what other products that you use/wear 24 hours a day would you expect 50 years life without attention from? And why 50, and not 100 or 1000 years while you're at it. It'd have to be soldered shut cause no seals would last 50 years without drying up.

And whats the point of a perpetual quartz if you have to adjust it once a year anyway? And what if you travel, or daylight savings?

Who'd want to buy a watch at say 30 and wear it until you're 80? Will you even be able too see the dial by then... if you're still alive that is.

All sounds very weird imo. Except the part of no Seiko on the dial, that makes perfect sense.

All excellent suggestions! Not having to adjust for daylight savings or travel would be great. Daylight savings confuses me at the best of times. It's been done of course, but not in a watch I actually like. It is 2012, yes twenty twelve after all, it shouldn't be that unusual. I was expecting flying cars by now, at least a watch ought to know what time it is.

I mention 50 years between services simply because this is what the Grand Seiko 9f is touting. Sounds like I fine idea to me, I have enough mechanicals to service already but I'd still like another watch.

Of course high end cases, bracelets and dials are achievable for mid range prices (let's say £2k or less) using decent quartz, as the mechanical movement is the most expensive part. I suppose I am indeed a 'cheapskate' in that I find £6k for a watch that used to cost £3k just a few years ago, and has £15k of expected services ahead of it, a little on the steep side for a watch. I would love to join you in your jet-set world where these expenses are beneath consideration, it must be fabulous up there!

[Huertecilla]

Of course high end cases, bracelets and dials are achievable for mid range prices (let's say £2k or less) using decent quartz, as the mechanical movement is the most expensive part. I suppose I am indeed a 'cheapskate' in that I find £6k for a watch that used to cost £3k just a few years ago, and has £15k of expected services ahead of it, a little on the steep side for a watch. I would love to join you in your jet-set world where these expenses are beneath consideration, it must be fabulous up there!

Interesting isn´t it that when you express the wish for a high quality modern tech accurate movement in a high end watch you are insultingly called a cheapskate.

Your cost analysis is not only very realistic; that is a LOT of money for a bracelet with a clock that doesn´t match up to even an el cheapo fashion watch teenager wears.
I do not understand why one cannot have a high quality 21st C. high tech movement in a high end watch.

This situation is silly to the extreme if one would project this in automotive perspective and I am personally pleased to no end by the crucial questions put in the ´silicon´ topic:
- Where stops the development of ´traditional´?
- Would 17th C. cutting edge tech watchmakers have used silicon, either in a spring or as a tuning fork, to make their time measuring instruments more accurate if they could have?

Where you are not entirely correct is on the cost of the movements.
The automated mass produced Swiss mechanical movements are not néarly as costly to produce as is implied by claiming all that heritage and craftmenship.
The low production numbers of the 9F calibers together with the hand assemby and - regulation probably makes those more costly than the VERY cost effective mass produced Rolex sports engines.
The mass produced Swinese movements are cheaper to produce still. No way ETA can produce the higher spec. autoquartzes for that. Small wonder that Swatch prefers Swinese automatics over inhouse ETA autoquartz. They can sell the former for a lót higher price with follow-up income from service to boot.

[744ER]

I mention 50 years between services simply because this is what the Grand Seiko 9f is touting. Sounds like I fine idea to me, I have enough mechanicals to service already but I'd still like another watch.

Of course high end cases, bracelets and dials are achievable for mid range prices (let's say £2k or less) using decent quartz, as the mechanical movement is the most expensive part.

So the 9f uses a case thats soldered shut, or how else do they make that claim?

Our definition of high-end obviously differs greatly. No way you'd get what I consider high-end for 2k retail even without a movement....

And a top-spec 2824 costs about the same as ETAs high specced quartz (e20.xxx for instance) so that statement is not necessarily true either.

[Itsguy]

So the 9f uses a case thats soldered shut, or how else do they make that claim?

Our definition of high-end obviously differs greatly. No way you'd get what I consider high-end for 2k retail even without a movement....

And a top-spec 2824 costs about the same as ETAs high specced quartz (e20.xxx for instance) so that statement is not necessarily true either.

Agreed, I'm using 'high end' very loosely here, and it's a vague comparative term at best. High end in high street terms is perhaps somewhere in the middle in reality.

As for movements, it clearly all depends. How many you are making, in house or ETA, 'modified' ETA, vs how many high accuracy quartz, apples with pears.

Nonetheless, the I haven't heard anyone complain about the movement or build quality of a GS quartz, just its relative glamour, so it's clearly possible.

But hasn't this thread wondered some way off topic? Please, someone post some watch adverts and get it back on track!

[744ER]

Agreed, I'm using 'high end' very loosely here, and it's a vague comparative term at best. High end in high street terms is perhaps somewhere in the middle in reality.

As for movements, it clearly all depends. How many you are making, in house or ETA, 'modified' ETA, vs how many high accuracy quartz, apples with pears.

Nonetheless, the I haven't heard anyone complain about the movement or build quality of a GS quartz, just its relative glamour, so it's clearly possible.

But hasn't this thread wondered some way off topic? Please, someone post some watch adverts and get it back on track!

How many complain about any quartz movements really? Its simple cheap as chips technology that rarely fails...

And you're right, lets see some more ads :)

[ralphy]

And you're right, lets see some more ads :)

Some from the past:
















R

[Itsguy]

Ha! 'Widely advertised to the public' - that's a claim you don't see used too often these days. Perhaps Omega should try it.

[Huertecilla]

So the 9f uses a case thats soldered shut, or how else do they make that claim?

The nice thing about quartz tech is that is does not need the spring tension on the gear train.
In the 9F the already freewheeling gear train is driven by two soft pushes instead of one.
This all means that the lubication does not have to be able to withstand ány loaded friction let alone the full powere of the jerkingly braked main spring exerting jerky pressure so it can be tailored to be simply low friction with high oxidation resistance.
Add capped jewels and the gearbox can very simply be made air tight as it lives in WR rated case.
I doubt that they did with the 9F gearbox and it isn´t mentioned anywhere but in the late sixties they filled the highest spec watch cases with nitrogen at ambient pressure to avoid oxidation.

See; no need for soldering anything shut and still get 50 years plus of maintenance free accurate time measuring from modern tech.
Just like modern car engines go a fair bit better and longer than pre-silicon tech without Nikasil, - siliconalloy pistons,- hydraulic tappets, accurate motormanegment etc.

All some wis ask is the same as is normal with cars. That you at least cán get state of the art 21st C. tech in higher end models. Not automatically a time warp back to pre-silica tech when you want a top notch case.
By all means prefer a mechanical if you so wish but why be so vehemently opposed to other wis wanting to be able to buy a high quality made 21st C. tech engine in their high end watch?

[744ER]

regurgitating the same old crap, of no relevance

What rubber seals will last 50 years? Theres more to a watch than the movement.


Either way, the oils wont last 50 years, nitrogen or not, mainspring or not.


And take a good long look at yourself before giving me any advise, by all means.

[Itsguy]

While we're on the subject... (I still have the one on the left).

[seikokiller]

My collage of IWC ad's.

Those are actually refreshing, and clever.

[Omegary]

Some Rolex Oysterquartz ads.





In terms of idea, tone and layout Rolex have been pretty much consistent since the late 60's and this has great paid dividends for them. Let's face it who hasn't seen and been influenced to some extend by a Rolex ad in National Geographical.

I think by sponsoring great sports people, climbers, explorers etc they stole a march on their competitors. Plus you can't argue with the success of their ambassadors, on the whole they're endeavours are truly heroic. In short they have real substance.

The trouble with say Omegas brand ambassador Nicole Kidman is, yes she's a successful actress but there's an awful lot of them in Hollywood. Plus I'd imagine she alienates as many people as she attracts, whereas you simply can't argue about the endeavours of say Reinhold Messner featured in the ads above. Dare I say it Ms Kidman and her ilk seem a little shallow in comparison.

Also the Rolex ads have are a little educational and enriching. So you may not have heard of Reinhold Messner but the headline does enough to intrigue and you read on. You read about his accent of Everest without oxygen, a worlds first, and feel that you've learnt something.

By contrast Omega ads are just a photogenic actor, whether that be George Clooney, Nicole Kidman or Daniel Craig who's been paid a pretty penny to sing the company song.

Cheers,
Gary

[Tokyo Tokei]

[...]I mention 50 years between services simply because this is what the Grand Seiko 9f is touting

Source ?

I've mentioned this once or twice before, but I cannot find a Seiko source for this claim. I include local ( Japan ) printed marketing materials I posess too. Seiko does have a GS Quartz servicing facility, where they offer to service your watch, cleaning and replacing movement parts where necessary, followed by a 16 hour performance check at various temperatures. A facility that wouldn't be needed for another 30 years or so if indeed Seiko GS Quartz has a 50 year service interval.

To get slightly back on topic. This is a claim that only ( non Japanese speaking, as far as I can tell ) WIS seem to repeat, without attribution.

I got interested in where this claim in WIS-land had come from. No one in Japan has ever made it to me, nor have I seen any reference to it. As opposed to say, The Citizen, which makes a huge thing about it's 10 year warranty, with it's special VIP card, and, perhaps notably, 2 services included free in that time. I once posted a link to Seiko's online GS Quartz marketing materials that mentioned the sealed "rotor cabin" and, parenthetically, that this gave the oil used here a theoretical 50 year life. It mentioned nothing about a sealed movement, nor 50 year service life, but I pondered if this was the original source of the meme.

A few responses followed, some even ( a little crossly ) quoting the same link back, "proving" that Seiko offered a 50 year service interval. One poster went further, claiming a "vacuum sealed movement" !

The power of suggestion is sometimes quite strong. A case of the fans doing the advertising for a claim the manufacturer has not made as far as I can tell. Unless someone has a source ?

Paul

[bedlam]

I'm far too clever to be affected by advertising

To a certain extent anything other than a £10 Casio is a luxury product. Even a £20 Casio. However, I don't particularly want to live in a world where a) I only own stuff which is the bare minimum required to fulfill a need and b) my life requires +/- 1s a month accuracy.

I need an analogue watch with a quality timing bezel that I can use in a professional environment daily and that I can dive with. Casio makes that for $15? Where do I get it?

[rfrazier]

Patek and the 'You never own a Patek...' line. Maybe it is the smarmy Ralph Lauren'esque seppo models. The WASP'ish hints of 'Family Legacy'. All very Mitt Romney. I buy Patek because they make the most beautiful and immaculate watches in the World not because I am dodging taxes in Switzerland.

My wife truly doesn't like these Patek ads. (By the way, Romney would have a much easier time if he were a WASP, especially the "P" part. ;))

I seldom look at watch ads.

Best wishes,
Bob

[markrlondon]

Ooops, forgot to add

We use a number of methods to market our watches.

The most important of these is advertising and we are one of the largest watch advertisers in the UK.
[...]

This is Seiko, btw. Who'd have thought it wasn't the sole preserve of the Swiss manufacturers? ;-)
R

Blimey, I don't think I've ever seen a Seiko advert anywhere. I am amazed they have a marketing effrot at all in the UK, and that is coming from a fan of Seiko watches.

I thought that text might have been from Omega, whose adverts I have seen.

[SimonK]

Seiko advertising is usually target-specific. This ad', for example, was aimed at the gay, motorsport market.

[seffrican]

What rubber seals will last 50 years? Theres more to a watch than the movement.

Either way, the oils wont last 50 years, nitrogen or not, mainspring or not.

Rubber seals will not last 50 years, but then rubber is quite rare in watches these days. I think the Vostok Amphibia uses the original design rubber sealing ring, but most modern seals and gaskets are silicone or teflon or some derivative. Many of these materials have operating lives of decades in more demanding applications than watch seals.

As for the oils, again, we have modern synthetic lubes that have storage lives of decades, and the goal anyway is to eliminate the need to lubricate the surfaces. This has been done in several areas of watch technology already.

[Huertecilla]

As for the oils, again, we have modern synthetic lubes that have storage lives of decades, and the goal anyway is to eliminate the need to lubricate the surfaces. This has been done in several areas of watch technology already.

In the GP/JLC 35x ´0 jewels´ teflon no-jewels were used that have proven to be reliable without any form of lubrication for 40 years now. No shattering on impact either.

The 9F family was released 20 years experience with zillions of quartz watches later.

It is now almost two decades later still so about time for the néxt generation high quality analogue quartz setting 21st C. standards.

The only thing preventing this from happening is lack of market because of advertising. Even Seiko is discovering (with SD) that the large margins are to be made through marketing feel better, not better watches.

[ralphy]

Blimey, I don't think I've ever seen a Seiko advert anywhere. I am amazed they have a marketing effrot at all in the UK, and that is coming from a fan of Seiko watches.

I thought that text might have been from Omega, whose adverts I have seen.

Their marketing effort is pretty dire if their UK website is investigated (the last press release was March 2010...) but here's a couple of ads:




They are actually my screenshots as their online images don't download.

2. How are Seiko watches marketed?

At Seiko UK we use a number of methods to market our products.The most important of these is advertising and we are one of the largest watch advertisers in the UK. Our campaigns usually focus on a select few ‘hero’ watches from the current Seiko range. Each watch features in its own advert, yet all the adverts follow a common, recognisable theme.We have a target market of 25-45 year old AB (upmarket) adults. To reach this audience, we place the bulk of our advertsing in fashion and lifestyle magazine titles, such as GQ, Esquire, Easy Living and Elle, and newspapers’ weekend supplements. We also use outdoor and online on a regular basis.PR and promotions are other ways in which we market Seiko watches. We use an external PR agency who present new products to journalists who will then use them in watch features and fashion shoots as appropriate.Once we have made consumers aware of our brand and products through advertising and PR, we have to persuade them to convert this into an actual purchase when they go shopping.A significant proportion of our marketing budget therefore goes into producing the window displays that you see in jewellers’ windows. The displays must be eye catching, reflect the quality of our brand and show the watches to their best advantage, as well as being easy to use for the sales staff in the shops.The key aims of our marketing strategy are to make people positively aware of our brand, highlighting individual products which illustrate the quality and innovation of our product and to leave people positively disposed towards Seiko when they reach the point of purchase.

R

[ralphy]

Source ?

I've mentioned this once or twice before, but I cannot find a Seiko source for this claim. I include local ( Japan ) printed marketing materials I posess too. Seiko does have a GS Quartz servicing facility, where they offer to service your watch, cleaning and replacing movement parts where necessary, followed by a 16 hour performance check at various temperatures. A facility that wouldn't be needed for another 30 years or so if indeed Seiko GS Quartz has a 50 year service interval.

To get slightly back on topic. This is a claim that only ( non Japanese speaking, as far as I can tell ) WIS seem to repeat, without attribution.

I got interested in where this claim in WIS-land had come from. No one in Japan has ever made it to me, nor have I seen any reference to it. As opposed to say, The Citizen, which makes a huge thing about it's 10 year warranty, with it's special VIP card, and, perhaps notably, 2 services included free in that time. I once posted a link to Seiko's online GS Quartz marketing materials that mentioned the sealed "rotor cabin" and, parenthetically, that this gave the oil used here a theoretical 50 year life. It mentioned nothing about a sealed movement, nor 50 year service life, but I pondered if this was the original source of the meme.

A few responses followed, some even ( a little crossly ) quoting the same link back, "proving" that Seiko offered a 50 year service interval. One poster went further, claiming a "vacuum sealed movement" !

The power of suggestion is sometimes quite strong. A case of the fans doing the advertising for a claim the manufacturer has not made as far as I can tell. Unless someone has a source ?

Paul

From Seiko's website:

Q: How often should I have my Seiko watch serviced?

A:Seiko quartz watches are designed to provide a lifetime of accurate and reliable service. However, every two or three years, or when you replace the battery, you should visit a Seiko authorised dealer. They will inspect your watch for any worn parts that may need replacement, check whether it needs lubrication, and whether perspiration or water, dust, etc., have penetrated the case.
Please note that Kinetic and digital watches should also be given checkups in the same way, as they also can suffer from the same effects of perspiration, dust, etc., and may need to be taken apart and cleaned.
Mechanical dress watches will require servicing every 18 months to 2 years. Other mechanical watches between 2 to 3 years. Quartz watches should be serviced every 2 to 3 years.

See; no need for soldering anything shut and still get 50 years plus of maintenance free accurate time measuring from modern tech.

I suggest you identify where that info comes from.

R

[Huertecilla]

From Seiko's website:


I suggest you identify where that info comes from.

R

Why?
It has been done several times. Both on wus, scwf, here. It´s like throwing a stone in quicksand.
You don´t want to know anyway. So don´t.
Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

[zelig]

Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

You seem to be ignorant of marketing.
You seem to fear marketing.
You seem to hate marketing.
Break the chain.

Or maybe... "You don´t want to know anyway"

z

[Daddelvirks]

don't you?

And that every three years, so the claim may be true, but it doesn't offer any benefits.
A cheap quartz watch will run 50 years without maintenance as well, and often has a longer battery life.
I bought A Sewills quartz from Eddie last year, as a beater, it has an ETA 7 jewel quartz with ten year battery life.

Daddel.

[ralphy]

Why?
It has been done several times. Both on wus, scwf, here. It´s like throwing a stone in quicksand.
You don´t want to know anyway. So don´t.
Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

I suggested you check your statement as it is at variance with the manufacturer's own information. The fact it has been 'done' several times on other watch forums is irrelevant - you may choose believe what you read from anonymous people, I'm more inclined to listen to the manufacturer. However, if you could produce evidence to the contrary of Seiko's own then please post it, otherwise you are simply guilty of regurgitating false information - and repetition of a false statement simply compounds the falsehood. So, can you produce it?

Please don't presume to know what I do or do not want to know: it is rather an ignorant stance to take and one that is associated with a closed mind.

R

[ralphy]

R

[744ER]

Rubber seals will not last 50 years, but then rubber is quite rare in watches these days. I think the Vostok Amphibia uses the original design rubber sealing ring, but most modern seals and gaskets are silicone or teflon or some derivative. Many of these materials have operating lives of decades in more demanding applications than watch seals.

As for the oils, again, we have modern synthetic lubes that have storage lives of decades, and the goal anyway is to eliminate the need to lubricate the surfaces. This has been done in several areas of watch technology already.

Well Hytrel is a popular gasket material, long lasting too. I think you know i didnt mean rubber literally? Still nowhere near 50 years.

Moebius Synt-a-lube oils have a recommended shelf life of 6 years, they are used by practically all watchmakers... so dont know what oils you are referring to exactly but I'll bet they are not used in watchmaking.

Oil-free escapements have yet to prove themselves afaik. The Co-axial was meant to use less oil but actually needs more than the normal pallet lever escapement.

[Karl]

http://www.harrybishop.ca/?p=3848

[seffrican]

I think you know i didnt mean rubber literally?

Telepathy module failure, apparently.

[xpatUSA]

Seems like only yesterday when Zilla showed up here with some technical but interesting posts.

This thread certainly explains how he's racked up 8707 posts since then.

LOL,

[Belligero]

Seems like only yesterday when Zilla showed up here with some technical but interesting posts.

This thread certainly explains how he's racked up 8707 posts since then.

LOL,

The more the words, the less the meaning, and how does that profit anyone?

[Itsguy]

As to where this 50 year thing came from, here by the looks of things:
http://www.grand-seiko.com/manufacture/9f-quartz.html
They mention 50 years before it might need additional lubrication, I don't know if that would equate to a 50 year service interval, would anything else wear out first? For me, it could do with a perpetual calendar, like some 8Fs, and independent hour hand adjustment like Omegas. As pointed out earlier, seconds a year accuracy is less potent when you have to adjust the date every couple of months and reset the seconds when you travel.

[Huertecilla]

As to where this 50 year thing came from, here by the looks of things:
http://www.grand-seiko.com/manufacture/9f-quartz.html
They mention 50 years before it might need additional lubrication, I don't know if that would equate to a 50 year service interval, would anything else wear out first? For me, it could do with a perpetual calendar, like some 8Fs, and independent hour hand adjustment like Omegas. As pointed out earlier, seconds a year accuracy is less potent when you have to adjust the date every couple of months and reset the seconds when you travel.

It is in print too in a nineties Grand Seiko book that I have.

This page give an impressive summery of the 9F specs. btw.

The date thing is why I have three 9F61 = no date.

The 5 decennia ´lubrication interval´ gets extra perspective when you realise that quartz watches have been around for just over 4 decennia and the 9F for almost 2.
After only 25 years of quartz Seiko brought out the GS 9F.

When you look at the Omega Marine Chronometer it makes you realise how much development there still is in the concept.
The accuracy of a qco is linear with the frequency and the easily 32K Hertz was adopted as the universal choice because the energy consumption is linear with the frequency too.
Todáy however the rest of the technology has become so frugal and also can solar - or kinetic energy be very efficiently used to compensate for that.
It should be very much possible to produce a maintenance fréé analogue watch improving on the Marine Chrono performance with independant hour hand setting and an accu that needs replacing after several decennia only.
Top it with a nice design backplate with pretty Geneva stripes on it, with an extra pretty hatch covering the accumulator.
If only that would not shoot the SD line in the foot...
Just like Omega taking the 1680 with ETA 252.511 from the program to make the co-ax look better.

[ralphy]

My wife truly doesn't like these Patek ads. (By the way, Romney would have a much easier time if he were a WASP, especially the "P" part. ;))

I seldom look at watch ads.

Best wishes,
Bob

Perhaps your wife might appreciate this one.



;-)

R

[Tokyo Tokei]

As to where this 50 year thing came from, here by the looks of things:
http://www.grand-seiko.com/manufacture/9f-quartz.html
They mention 50 years before it might need additional lubrication, I don't know if that would equate to a 50 year service interval

Exactly. That's the link ( actually, the Japanese source from which that page is a translation ) I posted before as the likely root of the mistake. The cabin around the rotor is to help prevent dust intrusion during battery changes. There is no claim of a 50 year service interval. Others responded by posting the same link back as "proof" of the claim. As I mentioned, people read what they want to read ( vacuum sealed movement, 50 year service interval ) rather than what the words say. Or they just quote what someone else wrote on another forum.

I don't dispute the quality of the movement, nor that it might well last without service for decades. I own an unserviced RiQuartz from the 70’s which is doing just fine. I personally believe most quartz watches will last for decades if not abused. A 10 year battery life, or eco-drive, would also greatly help prevent dust intrusion too. But I can't find a Seiko statement anywhere to verify the oft-cited GS Quartz 50 year service interval claim. Not on their site ( Japanese or English ), in their printed marketing materials, in-store displays, or indeed by any GS sales staff I have talked to.

Odd that such a thing would be not mentioned at all by Seiko, not even in the small print, or on the guarantee, or indeed on the GS Quartz maintenance service web page, if it were true.

As I described earlier in this thread, Seiko do offer a full GS Quartz maintenance service, which takes 2-3 weeks, and includes cleaning and replacement of parts as necessary. Would be unnecessary if they were maintenance free for 50 years. If our wise friend Heurty has a book with a Seiko claim of 50 year service intervals, it would be good to see a photo. Not a challenge, just it would be the first evidence for this claim that I have yet seen.

</horse flog!>

Paul

[Huertecilla]

If our wise friend Heurty has a book with a Seiko claim of 50 year service intervals, it would be good to see a photo. Not a challenge, just it would be the first evidence for this claim that I have yet seen.

</horse flog!>

Paul

What would be the point?
You will no doubt find semantics again.
See it anyway you like; ´50 years lubrication interval´ or ´2 years maintenance battery replacement interval´.
That is irrelevant semantics.

Indisputable is that this movement will run very accurely with extremely low service service attention and near as no wear for ´ever´.
The crúx is that even though in a different, post modern, dimension in respect to main spring loaded movements, this movement is two decades old and technology has moved on since.
The marketed luxury fashion of the anachronistic mechanicals prevents this horological development from resulting in a 21st C. movement: Seiko has not made a 9Gxx but a spríng drive and it sells at a huge premium ....
This situation is simply unthinkable in automotive terms; beyond ludicrous.

[Tokyo Tokei]

So what does the book say ? I can read the original Japanese and it doesn't mention, nor imply, 50 year maintenance intervals. I would love to see a Seiko source, in any language, that offers this. Or alternatively, would like to see people not quoting it over and over again without, or refusing to, offer attribution.

Paul

[ralphy]

What would be the point?
You will no doubt find semantics again.
See it anyway you like; ´50 years lubrication interval´ or ´2 years maintenance battery replacement interval´.

Actually, you stated:

See; no need for soldering anything shut and still get 50 years plus of maintenance free accurate time measuring from modern tech.

There is no 'semantics' here: if you are going to put something up on the forum as fact - when there is clear evidence to the contrary - then back it up with evidence. Or have the decency to admit you are wrong.

That's not semantics, it's credibility.

R

[Huertecilla]

Actually, you stated:
There is no 'semantics' here: if you are going to put something up on the forum as fact - when there is clear evidence to the contrary - then back it up with evidence. Or have the decency to admit you are wrong.

That's not semantics, it's credibility.

R

I still read 50+ year no lube as no mainteance to the gearbox and do not see battery replacement as servicing a watch. I read this as 50+ year service interval.
By all means interprete this differently.
Appearantly some like to harp on a different way of interpreting this to divert from the issue of the topic: That the marketing created fashion in luxury mechanicals is halting progress; that Seiko has marketed a main spring driven anachronism instead of a 9Gxx; reïntroduced a spring loaded gearbox needing 5 year maintenance when 2 decades ago they were at 50 years....
That this is simply unthinkable in cars.

[seffrican]

Can you guys just settle this the simple way, please?

Go out and buy a new GS, post pics, and then report back in 2062 with whether your watch needed a service or not.

Thank you.

[seffrican]

That's a fair point. I certainly don't approve of the lax "Swiss Made" regulations....

As a matter of interest, have you ever compared them to the regulations relating to Japan Made, Made in Germany, Made in Great Britain, etc?

For example, it's been claimed that Seiko's Japan Made models are made in Malaysia and stamped Japan Made for the domestic market, and that there is no regulation preventing them from doing so.

[Huertecilla]

Can you guys just settle this the simple way, please?

Go out and buy a new GS, post pics, and then report back in 2062 with whether your watch needed a service or not.

Thank you.

As you could have júst read I háve three 9F61 engined GS watches one of which is an early one.

Again; this is not the crux in this topic.
Neither is it whether things have the correct seal of origin. By all means open a new topic on it. That would certainly provide customer information.

The point is that advertising influences perception, creates a demand, creates a market and in this case the fashion blocks technical advance of horology.
Derailing the topic to whether or not 50 years no lube means no service or whether Made in Japan means made in Japan, is proving the point if anything.
Seiko itself provides the best example of this by introducing a quartz watch needing 5 yearly gear box oil changes when two decades ago they launched one that needs it only every 50.

[zelig]

The point is that advertising influences perception, creates a demand, creates a market and in this case the fashion blocks technical advance of horology.

Opinion. Not fact.

IMHO, You appear to know very little about markets and marketing.

z

[gentlemenpreferhats]

As a matter of interest, have you ever compared them to the regulations relating to Japan Made, Made in Germany, Made in Great Britain, etc?

For example, it's been claimed that Seiko's Japan Made models are made in Malaysia and stamped Japan Made for the domestic market, and that there is no regulation preventing them from doing so.

I would be interested in knowing the answer to this.
The EU runs the Protected Geographical Indication as a structure within which which a number of countries (most successfully France's AOC and Italy's DOC) have built schemes to legally protect agricultural produce.
AFAIK neither Britain or Germany have gone as far as to protect industrial product in the same way in law as the same way as the Swiss have. Trademark law would apply though but can be more than slightly complex. In any case its hardly well policed.
Happy to be corrected on this.

[zelig]

The point is that advertising influences perception, creates a demand, creates a market and in this case the fashion blocks technical advance of horology.

Some people are satisfied with the performance level of current horology.

Let's take another example to make the point...

You have a chair.
It sustains your weight (core attribute).
It's comfortable (additional attribute).
It's made of wood (or leather).
It looks good (subjective attribute).

Some people still buy learher &/or wooden chairs and will pay a considerable amount of money for one.

Some people want carbon fibre chairs... Even though the extra benefits do not bring any useful improvement in weight bearing, comfort or (subjectively) aesthetics.

Something similar could be said of watches.

Each to their own. Let it lie.

z

[rfrazier]

Perhaps your wife might appreciate this one.

...

;-)

R

I'll ask, but my guess is no. :)

Best wishes,
Bob

[Huertecilla]

Some people are satisfied with the performance level of current horology.

Let's take another example to make the point...

You have a chair.
It sustains your weight (core attribute).
It's comfortable (additional attribute).
It's made of wood (or leather).
It looks good (subjective attribute).

Some people still buy learher &/or wooden chairs and will pay a considerable amount of money for one.

Some people want carbon fibre chairs... Even though the extra benefits do not bring any useful improvement in weight bearing, comfort or (subjectively) aesthetics.

Something similar could be said of watches.

Each to their own. Let it lie.

z

I totally agree.
The last sentence holds a problem in horology.
The equivalent of carbon fibre chairs is not available because marketing the equivalent of wooden chairs is too profitable.

[Belligero]

I totally agree.
The last sentence holds a problem in horology.
The equivalent of carbon fibre chairs is not available because marketing the equivalent of wooden chairs is too profitable.

Have you ever heard of Watchlords? You'd love it there — I'm not even joking. In fact, I bet they'd make you a moderator in record time.

[Karl]

. Let it lie.

z

Meaning what, don't discuss it ?

[Huertecilla]

Meaning what, don't discuss it ?

Meaning I should not rock the mechanically propelled boat with guys yelllin ´cheap soulless chink/-jap/-quartz/-digital tat!´ and respect theír fun.