F1 - the Spanish Grand Prix

[Backward point]

Are you there, Peter? Ok, I'll get this one, then. :wink:

The first of a decreasing number of European Grands Prix, and as usual it's the chance for the teams to show off their new Paddock palaces. From what I've seen on Sky so far, Mercedes have produced a spectacular symphony in glass and unobtanium for the comfort and delight of the team and their sponsors.

Of lesser importance is the fact that all of the teams, with the exception of HRT, had three days of in-season testing at Mugello, two days of which weren't rained off. Opinions as to the value of the Test varied from Ferrari who, predictably, felt that it was vital in order to try some much-needed upgrades, to McLaren, who didn't trouble Messrs Hamilton and Button and instead used Oliver Turvey and Gary Paffett, their reserve drivers. As noted, HRT didn't bother at all, and used the time to move house. FIA President Jean Todt visited the new HRT base last week, presumably to ascertain whether or not they are actually a serious team.

Expect upgrades to most cars this weekend, and the only measure of importance will be who has made their upgrades work better than the others.

The ever-increasing speculation over the likely successor to the increasingly haunted-looking Felipe Massa continued apace during the break between Bahrain and Spain, with the latest candidate being Maaak Wibbah. Maaaak is on a rolling one-year-at-a-time deal with Red Bull, who will be looking o promote Daniel Ricciardo or Jean-Eric Vergne to replace him in time. The question of whether either will be ready for 2013 remains, and this week's rumour has it that Maaaaak may have re-signed for next year.

More anon.


Regards

Ian

[PeterM]

Hello Ian and thanks for getting us started :wave:

This could be an interesting weekend. I read that most teams felt the Mugello test was always going to be a bit of a waste because the track doesn't resemble anything like the tracks in the race calendar. I suppose they would just have tried out new bits on a back-to-back comparsion to check whether the effects were as predicted from the windtunnel and CFD.

As for Maaark :lol: (even JB calls him that) RB would be foolish to not re-sign him for 1 more year IMO. There's no way, bar any miracles in the middle of the year, that the new boys at TR will be able to fill his shoes any better. If they don't re-sign him then he could easily step into the Ferrari and they would be up a certain creek.

As for the GP, I read that Sunday has a chance of rain and temperatures will drop. Clearly that means that tyre performance will change between now and then, so whatever they do now will be quite different on the day. This could really mess up the McLarens in particular.

Renault/Lotus still look good but, as you are only as good as your last race, Vettel should be favourite at this stage...?

[hogthrob]

Alonso going well in practice, so far.

Interesting fact: Ted Kravitz's real name is Theodore Slotover.

[Backward point]

Alonso quickest in FP1, Button in FP2. Not much to read into either session, and one suspects that Alonso's time in FP1 was a bit of showboating to put a couple of thousand more on the gate for Sunday. The Ferrari still looks a bit of a handful from the onboard shots, unlike the Lotus or Red Bull.

The most obvious visual upgrade from any team is McLaren's new nose, which they tried at Mugello, and was used by Button in FP1 and both drivers in FP2. On the Sky commentary Crofty and Ant were pondering why the McLaren doesn't look as well planted through the middle section of the circuit as it did during the pre-season test, which is indeed strange. The new nose is a nod to the fashion of the hideous duck bills seen elsewhere on the grid, but not as pronounced or hideous as others. The Mercedes and Lotus noses look particularly ridiculous from the onboard cameras.

A few "offs" during the session, as well. The circuit has become rather "old-school" as it has gravel traps instead of the "get-out-of-jail-free" asphalt run-offs, so don't expect any Bahrain-esque bullying tactics this weekend, as it's Monaco next and nobody wants a five or ten place grid penalty there.

As far as predicting form for the race goes, it's anybody's guess. Nobody stands out as being consistently quick, but Lotus could score well.


Regards

Ian

[PeterM]

Anyone learn anything from Free Practice 1-3... because I'll be jiggered if I did :scratch:

[hogthrob]

Anyone learn anything from Free Practice 1-3... because I'll be jiggered if I did :scratch:

Vettel favourite for pole?

[gregbuc]

So Vettel fastest ahead of the Williams in FP3, followed by Kobybashy in the Sauber. Doesn't exactly show any consistency. Hamilton was 1.6 seconds slower than JB, the Ferraris and Raikkonen's Lotus not looking too hot either. Basically we've learnt nothing as far as I can see!

Looks like the veil might get lifted during qualy, but Webber did say yesterday that some drivers may sit out Q3 in order to save tyres for the race. So even then we might be none the wiser. Have to say, I'm loving this season so far, you never really know what's going to happen.

[hogthrob]

What a strange grid; should make for an interesting race though. Three drivers chose not to set a time in Q3 - more fuel for the argument that tyre preservation is paramount this year.

Pos 	No 	Driver 	Team 	Q1	Q2	Q3 	Laps
1 	4 	Lewis Hamilton 	McLaren-Mercedes 	1:22.583	1:22.465	1:21.707 	17
2 	18 	Pastor Maldonado 	Williams-Renault 	1:23.380	1:22.105	1:22.285 	14
3 	5 	Fernando Alonso 	Ferrari 	1:23.276	1:22.862	1:22.302 	15
4 	10 	Romain Grosjean 	Lotus-Renault 	1:23.248	1:22.667	1:22.424 	14
5 	9 	Kimi Räikkönen 	Lotus-Renault 	1:23.406	1:22.856	1:22.487 	13
6 	15 	Sergio Perez 	Sauber-Ferrari 	1:24.261	1:22.773	1:22.533 	14
7 	8 	Nico Rosberg 	Mercedes 	1:23.370	1:22.882	1:23.005 	17
8 	1 	Sebastian Vettel 	Red Bull Racing-Renault 	1:23.850	1:22.884	no time 	14
9 	7 	Michael Schumacher 	Mercedes 	1:23.757	1:22.904	no time 	15
10 	14 	Kamui Kobayashi 	Sauber-Ferrari 	1:23.386	1:22.897	no time 	14
11 	3 	Jenson Button 	McLaren-Mercedes 	1:23.510	1:22.944		13
12 	2 	Mark Webber 	Red Bull Racing-Renault 	1:23.592	1:22.977		8
13 	11 	Paul di Resta 	Force India-Mercedes 	1:23.852	1:23.125		14
14 	12 	Nico Hulkenberg 	Force India-Mercedes 	1:23.720	1:23.177		13
15 	17 	Jean-Eric Vergne 	STR-Ferrari 	1:24.362	1:23.265		11
16 	16 	Daniel Ricciardo 	STR-Ferrari 	1:23.906	1:23.442		11
17 	6 	Felipe Massa 	Ferrari 	1:23.886	1:23.444		12
18 	19 	Bruno Senna 	Williams-Renault 	1:24.981			8
19 	21 	Vitaly Petrov 	Caterham-Renault 	1:25.277			8
20 	20 	Heikki Kovalainen 	Caterham-Renault 	1:25.507			8
21 	25 	Charles Pic 	Marussia-Cosworth 	1:26.582			8
22 	24 	Timo Glock 	Marussia-Cosworth 	1:27.032			8
23 	22 	Pedro de la Rosa 	HRT-Cosworth 	1:27.555			6
24 	23 	Narain Karthikeyan 	HRT-Cosworth 	1:31.122			4

[PeterM]

A strange grid indeed and IMO unenjoyable to watch.

These tyres are really getting on my nerves TBH - far too peaky to suit parc ferme conditions. Either broaden the range of the tyres' working temperature, or allow more set up changes on the cars.

For once I think I'm with Schumacher :?

[scarto]

For crying out loud. This sport might as well be re-named 'Tyre strategy'...it's all they blinking go on about. I've loosely been following F1 for a long time and never have tyres been spoken about than in the past few years. Why can't it just be about the racing?

[JeremyO]

Wholeheartedly agree, IMO the whole tyre thing is a travesty.

Ridiculous to have to use two different compounds in a race, if one is optimum then the teams should be able to use that throughout the race.

But it's not about the racing any more, is it? It's all about the money.

Am most upset that we are losing it on terrestrial, I for one will not subscribe to Sky Sports just for F1.

[TikTokTrev]

I agree with the 3 posts above....what I'd like to see is the drivers hurtling round at top speed throughout qualifying and the race itself, with the fastest driver/car combo coming first.
The current regs mean that the quickest way to the flag on Sunday seems to be to cruise round conserving tyres from quali onwards, with the most 'conservative' driver on top of the podium.

[gregbuc]

The tyre argument has been going on for years in one form or another. When there was tyre competition it wasn't fair, when the rules were changed to one set to last an entire race it wasn't fair. When Bridgestone were on their own it was boring. When Pirelli are told to spice things up it's not fair. F1 and sport is never fair (unless you're winning of course). I agree that tyre management isn't the most exciting thing in the world but we have had incredibly interesting races, loads of overtaking and four different winners.

Personally I'd love to see them do a lot more work on getting the downforce levels down and returning to a situation where mechanical grip rather than aerodynamic grip was the main ingredient. That should let cars travel closer together, lengthen braking distances, give more opportunity for the "last of the late brakers" to do some overtakes and hopefully give us more driver influence than machinery influence.

In the end, tyre preservation is just another skill that a driver needs. In the past you had to take care of engines, brakes, clutch, gearbox etc. Now all that stuff is bulletproof. So do we now consider it boring that drivers don't have to manage these aspects as much?

[Reeny]

It's a bit like Jackie Stewarts description of LeMans - the slowest car wins.

The turbo days were the same,
When they didn't have enough fuel to run at full boost all of the race, and only used the max available to overtake.

Should be a good event tomorrow.

[gingerpaul]

Good job Maldonado. Great to see a Williams on the front row again.

[gingerpaul]

I'm also looking forward to Kimi and Seb charging through to the front. Actually, mainly Kimi. :D

[JeremyO]

Just another thought about the tyre situation, it's ironic that three drivers in the top ten of final practice failed to set a time because, we are led to believe, they prefer to conserve the tyres for the actual race.

Maybe those who qualified outside the top ten will have a race advantage, we will see.

[jez]

Penalty for Hamilton , back of the grid :shock: . Low Fuel I think.

[JeremyO]

Just noticed that, poor planning, if not incompetence, by the team to run that light on fuel.

Bet Button is now wishing he'd been involved in the recent testing too. Seems madness not to use the guys who are actually going to drive the cars after the upgrades have been made.

[jez]

Just noticed that, poor planning by the team to run that light on fuel.

Always amazes me how teams with so much money and brains can mess up like this :shock: . Have to agree on the tyre issue , all getting a bit silly now , quali 3 was a joke

[Rob]

Just noticed that, poor planning by the team to run that light on fuel.

Always amazes me how teams with so much money and brains can mess up like this :shock: . Have to agree on the tyre issue , all getting a bit silly now , quali 3 was a joke

It's pretty obvious that you want to run on as little fuel as you can get away with....there's no point carrying excessive fuel as Brundle would always say that each kilo of fuel was worth x tenths of a second.

[jez]

It's pretty obvious that you want to run on as little fuel as you can get away with....there's no point carrying excessive fuel as Brundle would always say that each kilo of fuel was worth x tenths of a second.[/quote]

I agree, but pointless if you don't have enough fuel to comply with the regulations and are heavily punished .

[Rob]

It's pretty obvious that you want to run on as little fuel as you can get away with....there's no point carrying excessive fuel as Brundle would always say that each kilo of fuel was worth x tenths of a second.

I agree, but pointless if you don't have enough fuel to comply with the regulations and are heavily punished .[/quote]

Yeah but they're trying to get as close to the optimum level which is just enough to get back to the pits plus the mandatory amount required for a fuel sample....for what ever reason he must've used more than he should've done...perhaps the outlap was too fast...who knows.

Whoever said it was incompetence is being a bit harsh

[benny.c]

According to the Beeb it was incompetence:

"The fuel rig guy put the rig on, but he had the handle set to drain fuel. He discovered his mistake and switched it to put fuel in the car. But as a result he didn't put as much fuel in it as he should have.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/18047760

[downstream]

Technically the penalty wasn't for low fuel, it was for failing to return to the pits.

Dropped to the back of the grid is far too harsh though. They should have scrubbed his Q3 times and made him start 10th.

They clearly weren't trying to cheat - he was 0.5 seconds faster than anyone else. He could have carried a full jerry can around with him and still qualified first!

[~dadam02~]

Dropped to the back of the grid is far too harsh though. They should have scrubbed his Q3 times and made him start 10th.

^^ This. Seems a bit extreme to push him to the back of the grid.

[Matt.D]

More to come on this I think, all commentators were expecting Hamilton's Q3 time to be deleted. Another liegate on the cards?

[downstream]

Good job Maldonado. Great to see a Williams on the front row again.

+1

I don't agree with the penalty given to Lewis, but it's great showing for Williams. ESP on Sir Franks 70th

[third time lucky]

Happy birthday Frank!

Very harsh on Lewis.

[hogthrob]

So Maldonado is on pole? :shock:

I've thought a little more about the three drivers who didn't set Q3 times. Perhaps they looked at who was in 11th and 12th (Button & Webber), considered where they realistically thought they could qualify, and concluded that the benefit of an extra set of unused soft tyres (like Button & Webber will have) outweighed the small improvement in grid position they might achieve.

TL,DR: they might have set a Q3 time if Button and Webber weren't directly behind them.

[Dazzler]

Force Majeure

GLOL :lol: :lol: :lol:
Nice try using that one

[oldandgrumpy]

Bet poor old Rubens is feeling pee'd off in Sao Paulo. He endured the worse period in Williams history, for Maldonado to put it 2nd (1st)

He's a gentleman, so I'm sure he's pleased for his old team but still. :?

[bassboy]

Just another thought about the tyre situation, it's ironic that three drivers in the top ten of final practice failed to set a time because, we are led to believe, they prefer to conserve the tyres for the actual race.

Maybe those who qualified outside the top ten will have a race advantage, we will see.

Isn't it about time that points were awarded for qualifying positions?? At least then (you would hope) everybody would get out on the track in Q3 and try to put a good time up instead of just a sector or two if they bother at all??

And I know rules are rules but Hamilton being pushed to the back of the grid is a joke!!

Just my two cents worth:))

[Backward point]

Strange goings-on in F1. Three drivers in the Top 10 don't set a lap time to conserve tyres - there's clearly something wrong with the rules. The fact that for the first time this season we have a two-step gap between tyre compounds (the hard compound is the Prime this weekend, the Option is the Soft) meant that the Soft would be treated like an old-fashioned Qualifier, and would be discarded at the earliest convenience during the race. More importantly, it also means a greater set-up compromise.

The FIA laid down certain criteria to Pirelli in an attempt to spice up "The Show" following the race in Canada a couple of years ago when, due to changeable weather and high tyre wear the race was unpredictable and deemed to be sufficiently exciting as to form the blueprint for the provision of excitement for the delight of the viewing masses, thereby avoiding the disenchantment which was gaining momentum due to the increasing unpredictability of races.

I'm not sure that I agree entirely with Herr Schumacher, a man who's golden era was at a time when races were flat-out sprints between pit stops, with little or no overtaking. The combination of tyre management becoming an important part of race strategy, and DRS allowing more overtaking means that Qualifying assumes a lesser importance than during Michael's heyday.

I'm actually starting to feel sorry for Lewis Hamilton. His own team seem determined to wreck his Championship chances. Poor pit stops and general incompetence are not what we expect from McLaren. The decision to move him to the back of the grid instead of just scrubbing his Q3 time is also too harsh, although it will be interesting to watch his progress through the field.

And it's good to see Williams making such good progress, as well. I have, in the past, considered Pastor Maldonado to be no more than a rent-a-driver, but he did a good job in what was a very strange Qualifying session. He's not the most refined driver out there, so expect him to go backwards during the race, but an excellent effort nonetheless. And Alonso again transcended his machinery. I wonder what he could achieve should Ferrari eventually give him a car worthy of his ability.

With several drivers out of position on the grid, we could be set for a memorable race.


Regards

Ian

[adrianw]

It's Spain McLaren should withdraw both cars and tell them to stuff it.




I don't know if this thread has spoilers so haven't said what happened

[PeterM]

Woke up to the Hamilton news, but suspected something like this might happen.

As much as I am an F1-buff I don't know what penalties were available to the Stewards. But there's obviously a difference between deliberate cheating, a cock-up, damage and force-majeure; so there should be a difference in the "penalties" that are available to be applied.

Obviously with half a second gap, there would have been enough for roughly 2 more laps at full-pace (more than 3 laps probably if you cut down to 4 cylinders and poodle around).

Draconian stuff, but then common sense rarely prevails. F1 rules are often a blunt instrument.

Whilst I agree with a lot of Ian says above, I don't think what Schumacher said can only be interpreted as going back to the old days of shorts sprints, but I do think we have gone a step too far this year with the tyres.

To repeat what I said in a previous post, if the tyres are going to be on a knife edge, and you can't make more tyres available, then the only other option is to reduce some of the parc ferme restrictions, so teams can dial in their cars more... that will achieve the same variables but still allow people to find a compromise that will allow close racing.

This is all a bit too mickey mouse to me and just hope (against hope) that the track will somehow be much easier to pass on than it ever has been in the past.

Oh and the reason why pole position is so important here is not so much the lack of overtaking, but that the first 2 corners nearly always results in some sort of argy-bargey, so everyone tends to be less aggressive and contact opens up the pack.

Final comment - as much as we Brits have a soft spot for Williams, there is no way that Maldonado is at the front on merit. If I had to explain this to a layperson, I would be faintly embarrassed.

[adrianw]

So if you don't go out its ok, but if you go out and something isn't right you get a penalty,

It must be me!

[scarto]

Whichever way you look at it , McLaren made a blunder and Lewis gets the book thrown at him again. How those irrational, jeering Spanish fans must be loving it.

Come on Lewis!

[Backward point]

Apparently the FIA introduced a rule which states that a car must carry sufficient fuel for an out lap, a timed lap and an in lap, plus one litre for a sample. Which, ironically, was introduced after Canada in 2010 when Lewis Hamilton set pole, but was told to stop the car on his in lap in order to ensure that the regulation one litre was available to be sampled.

In which case, it's clear-cut. Even though the penalty seems excessive and if Hamilton had not bothered to go out in Q3 he would be starting from 10th.

On the matter of awarding points for Qualifying, I couldn't agree more. But (and I'm willing to sell this idea to Bernie) on the basis that grid positions are subsequently awarded by the drawing of lots. This way, the drivers (and teams) will be rewarded for qualifying, but we won't be in a position of starting races with the fastest cars at the front. With the advent of DRS enabling overtaking, this would spice up the race, while also providing a spectacle on Saturdays during qualifying.

The grid for today's race has several drivers starting further back than they're used to, so we should see a decent race. Hopefully.


Regards

Ian

[JeremyO]

Just another thought about the tyre situation, it's ironic that three drivers in the top ten of final practice failed to set a time because, we are led to believe, they prefer to conserve the tyres for the actual race.

Maybe those who qualified outside the top ten will have a race advantage, we will see.

Isn't it about time that points were awarded for qualifying positions?? At least then (you would hope) everybody would get out on the track in Q3 and try to put a good time up instead of just a sector or two if they bother at all??

And I know rules are rules but Hamilton being pushed to the back of the grid is a joke!!

Just my two cents worth:))

Not sure I want to see points awarded for qualifying but would like to see points for fastest lap as in days of yore.

There I've given away my age now!

[baz osti]

Just another thought about the tyre situation, it's ironic that three drivers in the top ten of final practice failed to set a time because, we are led to believe, they prefer to conserve the tyres for the actual race.

Maybe those who qualified outside the top ten will have a race advantage, we will see.

Isn't it about time that points were awarded for qualifying positions?? At least then (you would hope) everybody would get out on the track in Q3 and try to put a good time up instead of just a sector or two if they bother at all??

And I know rules are rules but Hamilton being pushed to the back of the grid is a joke!!

Just my two cents worth:))

Not sure I want to see points awarded for qualifying but would like to see points for fastest lap as in days of yore.

There I've given away my age now!

Points for Qualifying is a ridiculous idea as the advantage is given on the grid for the quickest as we all know.
An extra few bonus points for the quickest lap of the race is a good idea IMO.
I like the new tyres and the impact it is having on the teams. This is the best start to a season for a long time and some of that is to do with the tyres and associated strategy used with them.

Looking forward to today's race and will be interesting to see what happens to the no shows from Q3.

[Jeremy67]

F1.com live timing not working again, there's a surprise!

[minkle]

Well done Williams! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Surprised by Maldonado!

[GraniteQuarry]

Yesss! My FantasyF1 will get a much-needed boost :D

Well done to him! Nice pressie for Frank too.

[WORKSIMON]

Fantastic, really enjoyed it :)

[JeremyO]

Happy with the result but still really do not like it that the drivers have to manage tyre degradation at all.

Still, 4 weeks off for me now as I think Monaco GP is a farce, purely for show and not a proper race at all IMHO.

[PeterM]

Well that was pretty shocking and a sad end to a great day for Frank Williams and his team.

Some brave men fighting that fire. Hope no-one has been hurt badly :(

[jez]

I cant be the only person who did not think Maldonado could win . Well I've proven wrong again :) . A very mature drive , keeping a hard pushing Alonso behind , so well done to him . The Williams looked very well balanced , and good on the tyres. Good to see them back up front . Great day for Frank.

[grey]

Happy with the result but still really do not like it that the drivers have to manage tyre degradation at all.

Still, 4 weeks off for me now as I think Monaco GP is a farce, purely for show and not a proper race at all IMHO.

A few years ago many people would have agreed with you, and many also thought that 911s with engines at the back, and Morgans built round ash frames were silly, but all three are still with us. And apparently most of the F1 drivers like Monaco, whereas a few years ago I understand many of them thought Monaco an anachronism.

Given that it's all rather farcical, which woud you prefer? As racing on public roads has largely been banned, we're left with fast UK circuits like Silverstone (largely courtesy of Herr Hitler) or Mickey Mouse circuits largely courtesy of the Poisoned Dwarf. Surely we should celebrate the existence of Monaco and the Australian and Canadian circuits?
g

[andy tims]

I cant be the only person who did not think Maldonado could win . Well I've proven wrong again :) . A very mature drive , keeping a hard pushing Alonso behind , so well done to him . The Williams looked very well balanced , and good on the tyres. Good to see them back up front . Great day for Frank.

Indeed – I thought he’d crack under pressure, Maldonado coped very well. Let’s hope he can go on from this.

Even though Lewis' penalty seemed OTT, McLaren are making far too many mistakes this season - great result from that grid position.

Kimi did well too and on a slightly different strategy might have won.

WTF was Schumacher doing?

Terrible to see the fire – hopefully those injured are not badly hurt. I don't understand why the proper fire tenders were so slow to arrive?