Not really bothered
Not really bothered
Omega f300 - so smooth :D
What I do mind is the hour hand drift on my Calibre S. Took it off after a day's wear. Picked it up at 7am the next morning and the watch was reading 3am. A common problem with the Calibre S apparently which if I had known about I may have had second thoughts about buying one.
New movement for an Omega 2264 is only $100 from Ofrei, plus fitting costs - rather less than an auto, and better than selling a watch due to irritation...Originally Posted by china
Bought this wall clock over the weekend, put the battery in and if not hitting the mark annoys you on your wrist imagine what its like at 5 times the size. But whats worse is the proportional increase in ticking!
So it was quickly replaced with this complete with sweeping second hand :D
i like that lower one!Originally Posted by rgee
If the 'slack in the gears' theory holds up, placing the watch face down should eradicate the error...or at least produce a change.
Despite being a confirmed mechanical watch fanatic, I think quartz movements are brilliant! Buy a good quality watch with an ETA-derived jewelled quartz movement, run it till the battery fails, get a new one fitted at a sensible price (NOT the prices quoted by Omega etc)......do this every few years. I reckon a good quality ETA jewelled movement will probably run for 15yrs provided dirt or water doesn`t get in; if anything electrical fails it's an easy job to replace the circuit and they're relatively cheap to replace.
Even if the lubricant starts to dry up in the movement, the watch will kep running but (theoretically) will consume it's battery faster; the minimum voltage at which it will run will increase due to friction, that's the test that's used to show that he movement needs stripping and reoiling.
Anyone wanting a nice watch with minimal maintainence costs would be well advised to get a quartz......but FFS don`t get too anal about the second hand not quite hitting the markers.... :roll: .
Think I`ll jack my car up tomorrow, synchronise all the wheels to make the Jaguar logos all coincide...then park it carefully to get them all lined up correctly because that'll look nice......then I'll line up the crowns on all my watches to get the logos looking right.......then I`ll iron my underpants.
Get real guys, it's not important.
I have two analogue quartz watches at the moment - the Citizen Skyhawk and the G-Shock analogue pilot. The Citizen hits the marks nearly all the way round the dial but the G-Shock hits them spot on 100% of the time. The G-Shock does feature some pretty impressive electronics just for controlling the hands.
I love the video of The Citizen. The minute hand actually moves visibly every second. Pretty impressive engineering.
I've never even checked, so I guess that means it doesn't bother me :)
That would drive me insane.
I twitch if the minute hand isnt bang on the marker when the seconds hit 0 so the seconds hand being out just wouldn't work for me.
Despite my somewhat flippant comments on this (I`d had a drink or 2 when I posted :drunken: ) I`m starting to get puzzled.
I can understand a constant error. I can understand being different from one side of the dial to the other (dial's not quite central)..........but I can`t understand how the watch can vary at random :? Doesn`t sound logical to me.
I`m in the process of rebuilding my very first quartz movement job and I`ve sussed out how they work etc......but I still can`t understand how the behaviour can vary.
I`m getting drawn into this and I`ll now be giving it some thought....seriously, I`m not joking. Hopefully someone more knowledgable than me can cast some light on this?
Only my theory based on the understanding that Quartz watches are generally driven by stepper motors....
Step motors generally have a rotor with a number of soft iron pole pieces bonded onto the shaft. The rotor turns because its pole pieces will always assume the path of minimum reluctance between the pole pieces of the energised stator coils on the housing. When the stator coils are energised in a specific sequence the rotor will rotate in a series of discrete steps stopping at each point of minimum reluctance until the next stator coil is engergised. The rotor therefore rotates in a series of steps (hence the name stepper motor) that are controlled in number by the construction of the motor and in a time sequence that is controlled by the time intervals between the coil energisations.
However the key thing to understand about stepper motors is that when they are stopped with a single phase energised there is actually zero torque acting on the rotor. Therefore any tiny variations in friction or inertia will always result in an over or undershoot in the stop position and because the rotor is exerting no torque the hands that are driven by it will simply stay in that place until the next phase is energised to drive it to the next stop position.
If the rotor stops in an undershoot or overshoot at one position it will then have more or less distance to go to the next stop position which will in turn influence the position it stops at in the next position. This continues around all of the stop positions and will result in the hand missing the markers in a pretty random manner.
Therefore in my opinion all step motor driven watches will have this characteristic to some extent
but the rotor is a permamagnet, and so will always strive for the same position in the stator, I believe?Originally Posted by GRK
Imho, its due to gravity and the weight of the seconds hand. Theres play in the gears and weight of the hand, which means that between 12-6, it might overshoot the indices by a little, while on the way up, 6-12 it will hit them perfectly, assuming you hold the watch vertical with 12 up. Turn it 180 degrees and result is opposite.
Lay it on the table and it should hit every index perfectly if properly applied :) YMMV as cheaper calibres have much more play than more expensive ones. It will also be much more evident on watches with large dials and therefore longer seconds hands.
I agree with 77ER re. the permamagnet (they are the devil's own job to refit due to the magnetism :twisted: ) but I don`t agree re. the gravity effect on the hands.
I like Grant's explanation re. the working of stepper motors but I don`t think it applies to watch movements.
In a quartz watch the coil energises and creates a magnetic field around the magnet, a small rotor with a pinion meshed to the movement wheels, for exactly 1 second. This causes the second hand to move in a discrete step. Somehow the quartz crystal controls this v. accurately.......I don`t understand that bit.
The quartz crystal will do it's clever stuff accurately aand precisely, so I can`t see how the 'randomness' can occur :?
But we all know that it does :D .The quartz crystal will do it's clever stuff accurately aand precisely, so I can`t see how the 'randomness' can occur :?
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
Geartrain slack, too, I believe. Easier to see this in a quartz vs. a full mechanical, because in a mechanical, the geartrain is under constant load (one reason why the bits are much bigger in a spring-powered watch). Not just slack in terms of having wide tolerance, in which the stepper could turn a few degrees and the hands not move at all, but also slack in that as soon as the stepper motor stops its little once-per-second fandango, the entire drivetrain is inert with no power going through it at all. However, the inertia of the second hand can cause overshoot - and sometimes you will notice the hand overshoot by a needle's width and then spring back to where it should be. I would attribute this to the effect of the magnet on the stepper, which "brakes" the second hand.Originally Posted by walkerwek1958
Some expensive quartz movements from Japan have a damping mechanism on the second hand to reduce the visible "error" that results.
...but what do I know; I don't even like watches!
Sorry for being imprecise, I was trying for a simple explanation :lol: . There are a number of types of step motor but generally there are two basic types, a variable reluctance type (VR) and a hybrid type. The VR is cheap and cheerful, generally has less steps per rev, and has only iron pole pieces in the rotor. The Hybrid type has both a permanent magnet and soft iron pole pieces in the rotor, it also tends to have a lot more steps per rev. The magnet on the rotor is designed to give some holding or restoring torque at the detent position but the torque is minimal compared to the motive torque supplied when the stator coils are energised. When the rotor stops the small restoring torque will try to centralise it on the marker but the larger motive torque from the stator coil will be zero and the stop position will be therefore be influenced by variable factors such as friction and/or gravity. When the rotor is moving the torque from the magnets on the rotor actually act against the motive torque from the stator coils (a bit like the clicks on a bezel) therefore the torque from the rotor magnets has to be left relatively small hence the tendency to sometimes miss the markers due to friction, gravity, etc.Originally Posted by 744ER
Complicated things stepper motors :) .
Im not sure i fully get your explanation, but im certain any variation in where the hand stops happens after the rotor pinion, i.e play in gears/friction/gravity... simply knocking a halted quartz chrono against the palm of your hand will show you the play in the chrono hands, moving them visibly out of zero position, on for instance the ETA 251.471.Originally Posted by GRK
Seems like a useful and informative post - thanks for that.Originally Posted by GRK
...but what do I know; I don't even like watches!
Lots of very interesting comments.
I have to say that from my own somewhat limited experience, I find that if I have a watch that hits the markers, it seem to stay that way, and vice versa.
Not really seen a lot of drift to speak of - maybe it's too small to easily observe?
The Seiko I am wearing now (an old kinetic) was spot on many years ago, and still is.
This would mean that the effect was dependent on physical orientation but, in many cases, it is not.Originally Posted by 744ER
I think there are a variety of causes and we should not over-generalise.
Differing symptoms may have differing causes: Misplaced or not quite evenly printed dials, poor stepper motors, gravity/orientation, gearing slack, backlash, and so on.
All of the above or any of them in different combinations can potentially produce difference symptoms.
In my experience with this type of mismatch moving the watch to a different orientation makes no difference. But I accept that it could make a difference in some cases.Originally Posted by 744ER
This is my experience too.Originally Posted by Routers
Just refitted the hands to my quartz Omega today; haven`t set it running yet, but I really couldn`t care whether the hands hit the second markers or not!
Fitting a second hand is so bloody fiddly, there's no way you'd have 4-5 (or more) goes trying to get it bang on the markers...........life's too short.
It's a good thing I don't really care about it also as the seconds hand goes nowhere near the markers on my new PRS-18Q :lol:Originally Posted by walkerwek1958
It's not that big a deal to me either, but my JDM Citizen PMD56-2952 has some sort of mechanism (? 'Perfix' is the name) to keep the second hand centered all the time. It's not to do with the radio-control, since mine doesn't pick up the signal from Japan that often.
I'm sure that most of you will be aware of the 9F calibres from Grand Seiko but this page is a good read if you haven't already seen it. http://www.grand-seiko.com/manufacture/9f-quartz.html
Their explanation for how they keep the seconds hand spot on mentions using a regulatory wheel borrowed from high end mechanical watchmaking.
I'm lucky enough to have two watches with the 9F62 inside and they are quite unlike any other quartz I've owned, and not just because of the accuracy. The seconds hand seems to move very slightly more slowly at the tick and is absolutely solid and precise in it's placement. I must confess that the incredible attention to detail in the design and execution leaves me wondering if this is much more the definition of haute horologie than the products of Patek and the like.
It's not quite a perfect movement by the way. It has no independently adjustable hour hand and no perpetual calendar as per The Citizen. It does mean you get the cheap thrill of checking how little it's deviated every 6 months when the clocks change though :)
I have had two Omega seamaster quartz over the years, both had this problem, after the initial fury about it and going back to the AD to enquire about and being told it is common as they are mass produced, i accepted it and swopped for an automatic, no problem then :lol:
Can`t resist another addition to this thread:
Just got my Seamaster pre-Bond finished and working this morning. Refitting the second hand is v. fiddly and there's no way I`d attempt to get it bang-on the markers, or fanny around having 3-4 goes at getting it right; once it's on it stays on!
Was pleasantly surprised and hugely amused to see that it's hitting the markers bang-on, despite no attempt by me to get it right :D
After all I`ve said about it not being important......maybe it is after all!
Well there's been some clever programming on the TimeFactor's iPhone app. Have a look at these shots of the PRS-18Q...
Gravity on an iPhone?
Well, I know pretty much nothing about the insides of watches but from a purely common sense point of view one would imagine that somewhere in close proximity to the second hand on a quartz watch there is a small toothed wheel with 60 notches and every second this wheel moves 1/60th of a complete revolution. In my experience there is commonly a marked difference in how much the second hand is out of alignment with the markers depending on which part of the dial it's at but that this difference is repeated exactly ad infinitum without exception. This would be the case if the toothed wheel (perhaps someone would say what it's called) simply didn't have it's notches cut at precisely equal distances.
And yes, misalignment of the second hand v. markers really annoys me. I don't regard that as being pedantic - the markers are there for a reason, the hand is there for a reason, it is pretty much accepted that time to the second is described in whole seconds and not, for example, 9 14 and 5 and a third seconds. It is, after all, the primary function of a watch to tell the time and one that doesn't get its second hand pointing at the right spots is singularly failing in that duty.
Look, if it's that hard for some companies to do it right then leave it off, even go the whole hog and make one handed watches.
I always assemble my customers watches with the second hand bang on the markers, no matter how many attempts it takes!
Bit late adding in to this thread, but this has always tickled me. I collect Seiko 7A38's - 15J quartz chronographs.
The watch featured in this 1986 Seiko TV advert is a 7A38-7120:
Watch the sweep hand in the last 10 seconds. Just about sums it up, doesn't it ?
The second hand market is still expensive anyway, unless if you find a bargain...
For instance, I've spotted a zenith rainbow once for £1200 and I was stupid enough not to go for it. In a week, was sold though. I'm not surprised
My Casio Edifice is in alignment all the way around, each and every time. So it can be done.
A Seiko movement (in a fashion watch, so not fitted by them) is off by different amounts around the dial and these do not vary between rotations. I guess the makers do not know or care about this issue but at £100 I wouldn't make a fuss. But if I had an Omega that did the same I would be pretty cheesed off. And I would be even more cheesed off by an Omega AD who told me it was a common fault caused by them being mass produced. I'd want to know why the watch cost more than £100.
Didn't worry me until I read this thread. Now my OCD has kicked in and I'm checking all my watches.
- - - Updated - - -
Didn't worry me until I read this thread. Now my OCD has kicked in and I'm checking all my watches.
Obviously the insanity of being a WIS has finally got to me.
i checked my prs10 broadarrow for three minutes after reading the first post and it was spot on the markers. 15 minutes later and it is now hitting the middle of the seconds graduations. I am now staring at it from different angles having placed it flat on the desk and every few minutes the alignment drifts in and out.
Conclusion - I think I need to get out more or buy a watch without a second hand.
(now spent 30 minutes on this - what a waste of time)
Fairly new to the watch scene. How much drift are we talking about here? Is it slightly off the markers or is it way off?
I have two CWC G10s, one unissued from new in @ 2004, one issued from 1984, and the seconds hand on each hits the markers bang on, every tick.
It all depends where you're stood. Parallax errors
Just checked my 2 BFKs . Both are very slightly off at times , I guess it's just a little play in movement
My tuna is bang on the markers every time