I'm in to my Omega's and I'm curious what everyones thoughts are on restoration.
I've put some through Bienne for full restores - they needed it though as they had gone through a hard life..
I'm seeing quite a few on here that have had the full treatment including dial and hands etc, but when seeing photos of the original dial it looks to be in great shape.. perhaps some fading but acceptable.
Then I see older speedmasters where people are VERY keen to get one with the original dial hands bezel (with associated dots above/below).. much like Rolexes people want the watch as close to original as possible.
I guess Omega return all the original parts so nothings lost if they're kept safe..
What's your thoughts? I've put 3 voting options and I'm keen to know what the general consensus is..
depends on the watch,I believe Bienne will only do a full restoration, as stated on the Omega site,STS will do as much or little as you want,untill the age of hands dial etc stop you enjoying looking at the watch I prefer to not replace those parts but would if I felt they needed it,I would then send to Bienne.
Defo depends on the watch...
As long as you have good communication and include clear instructions of the work you want done Omega Bienne will only carry out the work you specify much like STS. If you just send the watch with no instructions, they will obviously service / restore as per the usual process, hands are part of the standard service process.Originally Posted by jegger
Agreed there i wouldnt spend loads on a restoration if the watch didnt warrent it :)
If it was an original dial hands etc, i would have to keep them standard for sure, but the rest of it thats a different matter,
have the full works done and request the priginal parts returned with the watch so it can be returned to as good as old whenever you feel the need for alittle vintage.
Cheers,
Ben
..... for I have become the Jedi of flippers
" an extravagance is anything you buy that is of no earthly use to your wife "
Depends on the watch,i was happy for my Omega megaquartz(32) to get full treatment at STS but i think i'd be keener to preserve the character of a vintage Constellation cal 5xx.
Looks like a pretty equal split at the moment with Full Bienne Restoration just leading..
I understand what you mean by it depends on what watch..
The thing I keep thinking is, over the next 10-15 years people will no doubt go the same way they have with the early moon speedys/rolexes in wanting an untouched vintage piece.. i guess if you keep the parts safe you're ok, but people lose parts or sell them separately etc..
Thanks for your input guys, interesting its so even between the 3 options..
When I had my MKII Speedmaster restored at Bienne a few years ago I was given an itemised list of parts they recommended needed replacing. It was entirely my decision what to proceed with.
Choosing between STS and Bienne depends on the case imho.
Bienne use a lapping machine to get cases as close to original factory finish as possible. So if your watch has a starburst grain like the MKII Speedmaster, I'd thoroughly recommend Bienne.
STS hand finish cases to a good standard. However they can't match the precision of a lapped case and sometimes lose edges and round off profiles a little. They're good but if you put a STS case next to a Bienne case the differences are obvious.
Here's a review I did a while back.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=46130&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=Bie nne+V+STS
In both cases ask for the replaced parts to be returned - it's a relatively simple and inexpensive procedure to replace dials and hands - and you have the best of both worlds. HTH and any questions just ask.
Cheers,
Gary
Full treatment for me. I have seen some cracking examples particularly on Flighmasters.
Anybody experience of dial restoration with either STS or Bienne,my MQ dial was fine but i've just got a 30t2 and am pondering options.
I know this is going a bit off track so my apologies if it's considered a hi-jack.
Seeing as it's often been said that it depends on the watch I thought I'd throw in an actual example.
I was tracking this one for it's last hour last night but it quickly went over my perceived value. (I was interested up to AU $400)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/OMEGA-Speedma ... 336edd0925
Think it's a 1972/1973 from the serial number - early stepped dial anyway.
I think the current Bienne/STS service/restoration on an 861 movement watch is CHF 560 or GBP 390 (without bracelet).
Factoring in the service, tachymetre and a bracelet how much lower than the standard going rate for one of these would you go to consider it a worthwhile project.
What would be the "worthwhile" factor for you? Restoring to your own standards?
I suppose again all the options are valid.
Full Bienne
Partial Bienne
Keep wabi sabi - but service
Would you touch the example watch at all for any of these options? (not necessarily at the achieved price)
I haven`t voted, despite my love of vintage Omegas; I`ve owned plenty and currently have 7.
Although I haven`t used STS, I`ve talked to them several times about watches and the service they provide. I really can`t see any advantage in sending a watch to Bienne, waiting months for it restoring, then paying a high price, when STS can do exactly the same work to the same standard. Somehow I think there's an elitist/feelgood factor/mystique about 'sending it to Bienne'. I`m not disputing the standard of restoration, but I think it's a bit OTT in many cases. With the strength of the Swiss Franc, plus shipping costs etc, it's always going to be the more expensive option.
Clearly, a lot depends on the type and value of the watch in question. It may be advantageous or desirable to keep an existing dial and hands, even if they look somewhat aged and tired. It's also a matter of preference. However, if that's the case then what's the point in sending it to Bienne....or even to STS? To me, the advantage of STS or Bienne, compared to any other a competent repairer/restorer, is their access to parts which are not generally available....such as dials and hands for certain models.They also have the specialised machine to refinish certain case designs; the heavily-grained sunburst patterns found on many vintage Omegas can't (as far as I know) be correctly produced by anyone else. Again, if there is a wish to retain 'Wabi' (a term I absolutely loathe) and NOT have the case refinished, then there's no point in using the two most expensive specialists :?
Excluding the points I`ve raised, any competent repairer should be able to restore a vintage Omega. It only gets tricky when replacement dials or specialised case finishing is required. Omega parts are still generally available to all repairers (even amateurs like me) although this might change in the future. However, there is one small problem; Omega vintage parts have become ridiculously expensive over the last 2 years....a new balance for a cal 550 or similar is now £350 from Cousins whereas it cost around £60 5 years back. A new barrel, arbour and mainspring assembly is around £75....rotor posts are no longer supplied separately and a rebuilt weight/post assembly (exchange basis) is close to £100.
Clearly, the cost of thoroughly restoring a tired Omega vintage movement has become prohibitive.....but that's where STS have an advantage. They are obviously sitting on large stocks of new or good second-hand parts and, consequently, can offer a thorough movement restoration at a reasonable rate with a 2 yr guarantee. I`ve just been quoted £320 inclusive to overhaul a late 60s Seamaster day-date (cal 752 ) with a damaged balance. This will include a new crown, crystal, seals, replacement balance plus other parts, and case refurbish (which it doesn`t really need). Dial and hands are perfect so that's not an issue. Given the current parts prices, and a 2 year guarantee, this sounds like a fair deal; this is a watch I plan to keep long-term and, despite the fact that the watch is probably worth no more than £400 I`m tempted to bite the bullet and spend the money on it.
For a watch that is unlikely to need new parts, or dial restoration/replacement, I`d still be inclined to use a good independent repairer and save some cash. This is particularly true for lower value models that don`t justify big expenditure and I may well service this type of watch myself. However, if restoration to 'as new' is required then I`d go for STS. I`d only deal with Bienne as a last resort if STS couldn`t supply obsolete parts.
That's my take on restoring vintage Omegas. Shame that the parts prices have now become crazy. Be V. CAREFUL buying those £150 ebay bargains.
Paul
Thanks,thats very helpful its easy to get pulled in by cheap looking e bay bargains only to have to spend same again or more (as i have found out).
Great post walkerwek1958, understand where you're coming from, I guess each watch has a different path when it comes to restoration, plus you have sentimental value along with 'grail' to consider.. sometimes its not always financially the right idea, but the result is worth more to the individual.
BUT, I must say that from what I can tell Bienne prices are the same as STS, you do have postage but thats not really going to cost much.
I think the decision to use STS or Bienne comes down to the watch, if its a case that can be refinished in sunburst (or starburst) then it almost makes it worth sending to Bienne.. STS's work looks great, but I don't think I could go that route if the case needs doing.
The choice to use STS/Bienne or a local watchmaker is down to the movement really, how complicated and how far gone it is.
I've not found the wait too bad, I think my Speedmaster MK II took 3 months to be completed, very happy with the results.
The main thing I'm curious about is will we see peoples views on vintage Omega's shift away from service dials and hands etc?
P.S I checked the Omega site earlier and I'm 99% sure its changed fairly recently? the prices used to be in swiss francs but its now in GBP?
If there's a true bargain then why not buy and restore if you then get a completed watch at a good price? I've taken a few risks in my time, some good some bad, but its worth a go if you're confident it is a bargain.
In general I agree with you Paul especially on the criminal prices Omega now demands for part but I'm going to pull you up on a few of points. Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to defend Bienne or indeed justify using them.
1. When I have my Speedmaster restored I got quotes from STS and Bienne, they both gave me exactly the same quote. I admit that it cost a little extra to send it to Switzerland but not that much more. STS are the UK's official Omega vintage watch specialist and as such have to adhere to Omegas price structure that is clearly stated on their website.
2. My extremely good and very honest local Omega certified watch maker took a keen interest in my Speedmaster project and asked to view the watch once it was returned from Bienne. He took some time to closely scrutinised both the watch and the parts that they'd replaced. He was amazed at how thorough the service was and said they'd replaced parts that showed just a modicum of wear that would probably last for a few more years easily. He also said that the parts alone would have cost him more to source more than the total sum of the Bienne restoration (at the time it was £295 inc replacement dial and handset).
3. Bienne turnaround time varies on the calibre and I guess availability of parts. However with relatively common movements like the cal.861 they work pretty fast. Mine took less than 6 weeks, from me sending it off to having it back on my wrist and that included a delay on my behalf, so not too shabby really considering the thoroughness and workmanship.
Cheers,
Gary
if you needed to send the watch back under the guarantee to Bienne.anyone know what the turn around would likely be? I have used STS for guarantee work and had the watch back in a week,I understand Bienne can be quite a long wait for a sevice,I wouldn't mind waiting on the service but would want any repairs done a lot faster.
Sorry for staying a bit OT for this one, but it is close to the subject: I have used both STS and Bienne and are happy with both, but when STS is stating the part is not available (in my example it is a NOS bezel for a Speedmaster LCD) is it correct to assume that this part is not available anywhere in the "Omega system" or would I have another answer if sending it to Bienne? In short: Do these big Omega service centres co-operate in any way or do they hold their cards close?
regards
Terje
was just going off the Omega site where it stated only full restoration work will be carried out but glad to know that isn't the case.As long as you have good communication and include clear instructions of the work you want done Omega Bienne will only carry out the work you specify much like STS. If you just send the watch with no instructions, they will obviously service / restore as per the usual process, hands are part of the standard service process.
Just a few points to make on this:-
1. Don't presume that Bienne will send old parts back if you don't ask for them. I got none with my Speedy.
2. Based upon my recent experience you can plump for the Bienne job, wait 5 months and then find that your original hands have been damaged when removing them. Frustrating when you had a perfect dial and handset. Apparently, this can be a problem with chronos.
3. You can send your watch to Omega UK by RMSD and request they send it to Bienne. This way you won't pay international postage and they don't take any money until the job is done.
HTH
I included instructions but nothing regarding parts back, they were just returned anyway.. including the shattered crystal (not sure why they bothered sending me that..)
There's always chance of damage unfortunately, I guess they're as careful as possible.. but some of the hands are probably tough to get off after 30 years..
I think the advice is, if you use Omega UK, make sure you hammer home that you want it to go to Bienne for the work, else it will definitely go to STS.
Good post and advice, thanks!
I sent my Speedy Pro off for service with the specific instructions not to change the hands or the dial. It came back with a nice new crystal and pushers but otherwise looking pretty much how it was previously - which was exactly what I wanted.
Ive had it for 40 years and I did not want it coming back looking like a new watch.
I had my MK II Speedy serviced at STS recently, and had an original set of hands and dial fitted (not original to the watch due to damage, but with a suitable amount of patina).
My main reason for using STS was the reasonable price vs time span, however I must admit I didn't look too deeply into Bienne. Overall I am very happy with the finish - admittedly the lapping isn't as defined as the Bienne version, but it is there, and looks very nice. The movement was given a full service, and was returned with 'a bag of bits' - its been running pretty steadily at +4 so I'm happy with that.
To answer the original question though, I'm all for the service and overhaul, but unless otherwise absolutely necessary, I want to keep the dial and hands, and a sense that it is the age it is.
Ash
Did you send through Omega UK or direct to Bienne.
Good to hear they followed the instructions you provided, provides some reassurance that they do listen!
It all depends on a) the watch, b) your bond with it and c) the worth of the watch versus the price they charge.
I have an Omega quart that does not run (however, once in a while it moves, i take a picture of it and when i look a week later, the seconds hand has moved). Refurbishing the quartz will cost more than the whole watch is worth. Since my bond with this particular watch is low, i will not send it for repairs. If however it belonged to my father or grand father, i would have it repaired.
Nothing wrong with using either Bienne or STS. In my experience STS can be more helpful than Bienne, and are absolutely easier to approach and talk to. I find it best to always explain what you want and also what you dont want and you should be fine, no matter who you talk to. Ok accidents can happen and hands can look good but old lume can fall out when they are removed, not ideal for anyone but it does happen. Like all watchmakers, Bienne doesnt get the collectors thing as well as STS do and so likes to return a watch to you that is 'as new', which is nice, but an as new sm300 or speedy pro can look like it was built up from new parts last week ala the watchco watches, so be careful what you wish for, certainly if you prefer and wish to retain the older look then explain that is what you need. STS are more on board with this than Bienne, but Bienne can do it when pushed. Interestingly STS have been able to save and reuse hands I thought were gonners and they will tackle watches that Bienne will not, especially with electronics and quartz and they do amazing work on those.
Full treatment
For sure STS are your only option for the megaquartz side of things..
As per the results, its still close with an equal split across the 3 options.. which leaves us with the same understanding that no one route is preffered by all..
I've had 2 big overhauls which included everything, but I think moving forwards I'm going to make a concious effort to investigate if the existing parts can be cleaned/restored.. down the line I think its going to be wiser to retain the existing age and parts.. especially if its a long term investment/keeper.
Great post - very informative! Cheers!
Only just seen this thread and some very interesting points, I think both Bienne and STS will give you an excellent quality of service and I have never failed to be impressed by the results achieved by both. As Jon and Gary etc state Bienne have the edge on case refinishing without a doubt due to their possession of lapping equipment but I personally prefer the hand finish unless it is a pilot line case (SM120C etc)
I have always used STS (for about 50 watches so far), in part because they are round the corner from me and over the year I've built up a great relationship with them and in part because of their attention to customer service, something Bienne and indeed swatch UK could really do with taking a leaf out STS's book over. I have always without fail found STS superb to work with, especially their Service Manager Simon who take special care of customers with 'vintage' requirements, every time I have tried to deal with swatch I have found them rude and pompous!
The knowledge base in STS is outstanding, especially if like me you are an Omega quartz nut, they will also still service many models that Bienne will not. The set up at STS is very impressive, using the same equipment Bienne use (with the exception of lapping machines etc) and their facility is larger than you would think! I must admit I also love to go in just to look at their impressive 'museum collection' on display in their reception behind some very heavy duty cabinets :D
Sadly swatch have become a little too big for their boot's (IMHO) in recent years and their increase in parts prices really do reflect this, what it does mean is that far too many very rare watches are now lost to parts bins and ebay because it is not financially viable for the owner to have them serviced, very sad.
I noted a couple of peoples comments on dial restoration, most places in the UK use Beals or Sony's, both are very good, I have had a couple of dials for my MQ stardusts restored at Bienne but you are looking at £500-£600 + VAT for the service which is crackers.
Anyway, thats my two penneth! Merry Christmas
Tom
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
