Quote from March 2013:What I missed in the message above from March were the RMSD-specific Ts&Cs. I did in fact look for them back in March but I didn't look very hard since I intended to come back to the issue in more depth (but never got round to it).Originally Posted by markrlondon
Thank you to clemenry over at http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...=1#post2969721 and http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...=1#post2970401 for providing a link to the current RMSD Ts&Cs, dated 23rd April 2013 (http://www.royalmail.com/sites/defau..._April2013.pdf).
The current RMSD Ts&Cs remove the ambiguity that Royal Mail's 'General Terms and Conditions' dated 14th January 2013 and 'The Royal Mail United Kingdom Post Scheme 1st January 2013' introduced with respect to RMSD compensation. In other words, it is now clear that (as before when I began this thread) Royal Mail will NOT pay out ANY compensation for loss or damage to an item worth more than £2500 that is sent by Royal Mail Special Delivery.
Note that Royal Mail's 'General Terms and Conditions' and 'The Royal Mail United Kingdom Post Scheme' have been updated since I wrote the message in March but the fact remains that the RMSD Ts&Cs remove any possible ambiguity.
Here are the details:-
'Terms and conditions for Royal Mail Special Delivery Guaranteed by 9am purchased at Post Office® branches' dated April 2013 (actually introduced on 23rd April 2013) available at http://www.royalmail.com/sites/defau..._April2013.pdf (and linked from Special Delivery™ – for guaranteed, next-day delivery of urgent mail and valuable items.). These state:
In other words, the RMSD Ts&Cs specifically exclude any loss or damage compensation where "the posting does not comply with the provisions of this agreement and the scheme". If the sender breaches clause 4.3 (which states that any item whose value is more than £2500 is prohibited) then RM will therefore not pay out any loss or damage compensation in the event of a claim. This confirms the situation and removes the apparent ambiguity introduced by the RM general Ts&Cs and 'Schemes' back in March.4. Your obligations
[...]
4.3 You must not post any package under this agreement which contains
any item whose value is more than £2,500 or if the contents are a
prohibited under the scheme.
[...]
5. Liability and Compensation
5.1 In the event of loss of or damage to an item, our total liability
under this agreement will be limited to the maximum amount of
compensation paid for by you having regard to the weight of the item
and the fee paid, or the market value of the item at the time the cause
of action arises, which ever is the lesser sum, unless the posting does
not comply with the provisions of this agreement and the scheme.
Note that Royal Mail Airsure and Royal Mail International Signed For do not seem to have separate Ts&Cs and so the apparent ambiguity still remains for these services. I will (hopefully) examine Airsure and ISF in more detail in the new year, and will write to Royal Mail for final determination on the issue if necessary.
I have updated relevant earlier messages to reflect this information.
Edits:
1) 18th December 2013 at 19:56: Updated text.
2) 22nd December 2013 at 06:08: Fixed typo.
Last edited by markrlondon; 22nd December 2013 at 07:08. Reason: Edited: See list in message.
I must confess to not knowing this detail. I, like others, assumed that if anything gets lost or damaged then £2500 was merely the most they'd pay out. I'm just glad I know this now- but I have posted at least two watches worth well over the limit and got away with it. I can't believe I'd be so daft, in hindsight.
Parcelpro is surely the way to go if a f2f is out of the question.
I don't think it's so daft, really: It seems natural to me to assume that if you have paid for £2500's worth of cover then that is what you'll get, even if the item is worth more.
Agreed.
Thanks Mark, I remember sending an explorer II to someone on this forum and it was delayed in transit. For an hour or two we thought it was lost but it thankfully turned up a day later. I'd have been sick as a parrot if I'd had to make a claim and it'd been rejected!
I agree that sounds reasonable, but it actually works a bit like car insurance, and it does make sense: if you fit fancy alloy wheels to your car without telling your insurance company, and it was nicked, they would be within their rights to deny your whole claim.
It might seem natural to assume they'd just pay up the value of the car minus the extras you'd fitted, but they would argue (and would win in court) that you make your car more nick-able by adding those extras, and they should have been told and have been able to charge you an extra premium to represent the extra value plus the extra risk. So you had violated the contract.
Thanks for keeping us updated, Mark.
For reference: A useful snippet about Royal Mail tracking by colin t:
< http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...85#post3116285 >
For less valuable watches.... Didn't RM's international service (Airsure) used to be £500? I looked today as I have to send a watch to Germany for repair and it seems the max is now only £250...
http://www.royalmail.com/business/he...ing-an-account
Yup, you're right: The limit was £500 for most countries (although some countries were lower). However, after the most recent rearrangement of services, it seems that Airsure and International Signed For have been replaced by 'International Tracked & Signed', 'International Tracked', and 'International Signed'.
It seems that the new 'International Tracked & Signed' service is an improvement in terms of features over both Airsure and the old International Signed For (it effectively combines the two old services' sets of features) but RM have reduced the maximum compensation level down to £250! Very disappointing. Were they losing money on high value claims, one wonders?
As an aside, the page you linked (which I note is linked from the 'International Tracking and Signature services (Formerly Airsure® and International Signed For™)' page at http://www.royalmail.com/parcel-desp...tracked-signed) claims to be the 'Summary of compensation for contract services' (bold added by me). This is a bit confusing because the page that links to it is for non-contract (i.e. walk-in, non-business customers). Nevertheless, I expect that the compensation limit really has been reduced for non-contract/non-business customers too.
Before using the new 'International Tracked & Signed', 'International Tracked', and 'International Signed' services it would be wise to check their Ts&Cs in detail to make sure that valuables (such as watches, jewellery, etc.) are covered at all. Remember (for comparison) that the equivalent Parcelforce services specifically exclude all valuables from compensation. At some point I'll read the new Ts&Cs and post my findings here but don't hold your breath. ;-)
I am aware that this thread need some major updating. I'll do so in due course.
I used mbe.co.uk yesterday and couldn't be happier with the service. Pricey, but they're able to insure up to 25k.
That would be very helpful - especially in light of the discussion on this thread: http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.php?317292
Yeah it appears I was misinformed, I'm sure RM have changed their wording but none the less I was incorrect.
I just want to be sure about this. If you send a 4k watch at the max RM level (i.e. 2.5k) then add the additional 1.5k using the consequential loss cover from RM they would pay out in the event of it getting lost?
If this is the case then why do they set the limit at 2.5k in the first place?
The additional cover is for Consequential Loss, which has nothing to do with the value of the item being sent - it's there to deal with the consequences of the item not arriving on time.
An example might be a contract which has to be with the counterparty by 1pm the next day. Now the actual sheets of paper which the contract is printed on have no intrinsic value, but the consequence of the contract not arriving on time might be that the counterparty concludes the deal (perhaps the sale of a house) with somebody else, and you are out of pocket because of this. This Consequential Loss would be covered by the additional insurance premium.
The Terms & Conditions for RMSD do not allow its use for items worth over £2,500. If you did send a £4,000 watch through RMSD and it went missing, you would get nothing back (and, specifically, you would not get the first £2,500 back - which is what this thread is all about) unless you had taken out insurance through a third party.
OK thanks for the clarification!
Yup, it's on my to do list. :-)
Thanks for posting this. There really is a lot of confusion over this matter including, it seems, from Post Office staff.
I'm now bricking my pants...
posted my Panerai to RIS on Friday. Post office guy asks what the item is worth, so I say £5000 and he goes on to say I need to pay for consequential loss cover to £5000...which I accepted and thought nothing of it.
Now the watch has not arrived with RIS I have read this thread and realised I actually have ZERO insurance and my watch is missing
Didn't he ask what it was, they normally do? At that point they should have informed you weren't covered.I'm now bricking my pants...
posted my Panerai to RIS on Friday. Post office guy asks what the item is worth, so I say £5000 and he goes on to say I need to pay for consequential loss cover to £5000...which I accepted and thought nothing of it.
Now the watch has not arrived with RIS I have read this thread and realised I actually have ZERO insurance and my watch is missing
Hope it turns up though, what does tracking say?
nope he just asked what it's worth, I said about 6k and he said I can either have insurance for £5k or £10k - I went for £5k.
Last tracking update was Saturday 05:01 ON ITS WAY TO KENTISH TOWN PDO
RIS have confirmed it hasn't arrived today.
Which service did you use? Doesn't sound like Royal Mail Special Delivery, as they only cover up to £2500 and I'm pretty sure that the PO guy would know that.
Hopefully you're using a service which does actually have £5k of cover, and you'll be able to get that much back.
I send 50+ specials per day, quite a lot of ours have been delayed over the last week or so (since Black Friday), due to volumes I'm guessing.
Specials are so heavily secured and policed in the Royal Mail network we have never seen any go missing domestically.
When it does arrive, make sure you get your money back because they missed their delivery promise.
There is consequential loss insurance up to £10,000 - maybe this is what was paid for?
Correct, but I wasn't told what it was. It was special deliverynext working day by 1pm.
It's reassuring to hear there have been SD delays. With any luck it will show up tomorrow and I can claim back the £18 cost
Fingers crossed.
They should ask, but there's degrees of interpretation/understanding between PO staff - as evidenced by the 'consequential loss' recommendation.
R
Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.
It annoys me that they now ask what's in the parcel – that's my business, and if it was anything contra, do you think I'd tell you anyway? I also don't like having to state that I'm sending a watch worth £xxxx when there's a queue of people behind me, and a £6k watch is going to be far more tempting to 'lose' than some Christmas pants.
That's why I love having Parcel Pro, so I don't have to worry about stating the extra value or what's inside for 'insurance'.
They ask what's inside as they're after batteries and presumably will still do so.
Ye, its usually for batteries. When you tell them it's a watch they often say they cant send batteries, then you tell them this watch doesn't have batteries and they sometimes look at you like you have a magic watch!
I'm more inclined to think that they ask you what's inside so they can try and upsell. Every time I've posted a watch I've been told that jewelry is not covered and that I'll need RMSD for any kind of compensation. Despite the definition under jewelry being "watches - the cases of which are made wholly or mainly of precious metal". They never ask if it's made of gold or silver though, just tell me it is jewelry and not covered and I should get RMSD. I now just tell them that the parcel contains stainless steel and other non-precious metals.
I usually say "timing instrument". I feel like it's advertising the fact that it's something worth pinching if I call it a watch
Ouch!
He totally misled you if he sold you consequential loss insurance. It is worthless for any item of intrinsic value, such as a watch.
Furthermore, as you now know, the RMSD compensation only goes up to £2500 and is worthless for items valued for more than that.
First of all, don't worry. It will probably still turn up. Be patient.Now the watch has not arrived with RIS I have read this thread and realised I actually have ZERO insurance and my watch is missing
If it turns up late, remember to put in a claim for the RMSD postage value. It's not much but it's easy to do and you will be due this back.
If it doesn't turn up after the timeout period (I forget what this is for RMSD, I think it's about a week) then put in a claim for the value of the watch anyway. They won't pay out more than £2500 under any circumstances but you might be lucky and get the £2500.
Also investigate your home insurance: You might be covered. The watch is still your property whilst it's in the post.
Furthermore, if RIS asked you to send the watch to them they might have bulk insurance on watches being sent to and/or from them. Enquire with them about possible insurance. The RMSD receipt is proof of posting in case of an insurance claim. I hope you took detailed photos, too (as is always wise before sending the watch off for repair or service).
Last edited by markrlondon; 6th December 2016 at 01:04. Reason: Fixed Rolex/RIS confusion
(a) RMSD has optional consequential loss insurance. This goes up to £10,000 if I remember correctly and is for items that have no value in themselves but whose loss can be costly. An example would be a contract whose loss or delay would have financial consequences. The consequential loss insurance provides cover for the financial consequences; however, it is worthless for items of intrinsic value in themselves.
(b) There is no Royal Mail or Parcelforce service that provides £5000 of compensation cover for items of intrinsic value. None at all.
(c) A lot of people, including Post Office staff it seems, get confused about the nature of consequential loss insurance.
(d) From what I've seen and heard, many Post Office staff don't really understand the limits of their own compensation services. They commonly recommend RMSD for items worth more than £2500 and also recommend Parcelforce services for 'valuable' items (whereas Parcelforce offers no compensation on any service whatsoever for items defined as 'valuable', which includes watches).
I just say "no batteries" and that seems to satisfy them.
In fact lithium batteries inside equipment (such as in a watch) are allowed (if the package is properly labelled) but Post Office staff often seem to forget this or not be aware of it.
Let's not discuss batteries further in this thread, though. There are some other threads where I examined the (confusingly complex) battery rules in detail. :-)
I also checked into consequential loss insurance and was told that it was for things like documents etc that would have a financial implication if they didn't get there on time - contracts etc. It wasn't for additionally insuring an actual item, so I agree with Mark I don't think this insurance would be appropriate to a watch.
I have sent and received watches worth well over £2.5k by RMSD (taking the risk) and had no issues yet, one was late and I got my money back.
Hope the watch turns up.
They will be rather baffled if the OP does. ;-)
R
Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.
Rolex don't have such insurance?
It certainly exists, for what it's worth.
No I assume ralphy ment Rolex would be uninterested in Richemount return issues.
DOH!
Now fixed the error.
Thanks both. :-)
Hi Jimyu
firstly I bet your awake even now its a horrid feeling I have been there - it does happen but usually resolves itself it did for me after sleepless night.
when it happened to me i rang the 'world' in PO and found out some interesting stuff primarily
the RMSD system works very well 'Monday to Friday' or put a different way for items posted 'Monday to Thursday' - for delivery Tuesday to Friday. essentially there is limited Saturday service due to staffing which means the respective managers of each depot have to ensure the item gets to its final destination on Saturdays for items that were posted (accepted) on Fridays.
this sometimes means if Manager was having one of those Saturdays (CBA) the RMSD systems usual efficiency can be err 'patchy'.
it will no doubt still be in the system and then pop back up and arrive at final destination (often without further tracking updates)
if it helps there are 2 Track & Trace options this one can be more accurate
https://www.royalmail.com/track-your-item
Still no sign of the watch, or any update to the tracking.
I checked my home insurance wordings and I am covered for:
Loss or damage to your contents when they are temporarily away from your home anywhere in the world.
However, I am not covered for;
Unattended items – loss of or damage to items not in the care, custody or control of you, your family or an authorised person.
So the question is whether Royal Mail is an authorised person but there is no definition in the policy documents!? I expect it's not covered :(
Personally I'd say that RM is an authorised person -- they are very commonly authorised by people to take care of their property and (usually) move it around safely.
Anyway, there's still time for this to turn up. Royal Mail don't consider a RMSD package to be lost until about a week (if I remember correctly) after it was due.
Last edited by markrlondon; 6th December 2016 at 16:05.
I posted two highish value items from our local post office recently , both by signed for delivery and both went missing.
Never got an answer on both items , just lost in the system.
I don't use that post office anymore.
One of my concerns with RM, is that the signature does not even have to be that of the recipient. I've had numerous instances of the postman himself signing for a delivery and then just placing the package in an unsecured public mail box in a communal building complex. This has included delivery of speedmasters etc. RM website states that even for RMSD, it doesn't have to be signed for by the adressee, just the recipient which to me is worrying enough, let alone the postman pretending to be the recipient.
Must admit some of the corner shops with post office counters scare me when posting watches.
A few years ago when I was over, I posted a few Omegas that were under the 2.5K RM SD insurance terms etc however some young "geezer" served me (only person in the shop) and of course I had to declare value and contents. Was scary for a few days until delivered!
Nowadays I try to always go to a proper Post Office.
My mate was trying to convice me to use my hotels concierge to post out a Rolex last time I was over so we could go out on the town quicker!! :)
Ah yes, using these for such things is very uncomfortable, isn't it.
Some years ago my local main Post Office (almost always incredibly busy, often with queues out the door and round the corner) was threatened with closure, apparently for being not being busy enough. It would all be ok though, we were told, since the Post Office functions would be moved to the local Food Giant store. That would be the Food Giant store that closed soon after this plan was discussed.
Happily the Post Office is still there but who knows what they will decide to do with it in future.
I posted a scarf I sold on sales corner to a poster 2 weeks ago - didn't turn up and left me £15 out of pocket (as I refunded the buyer)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Did you claim for it with RM? Even if you didn't send it by RMSF you might have a claim on standard post as long as you had a certificate of posting.
I've spoken about this in the recent past to our local Post Office owner, who I know fairly well. He's had a post office for around 20 years, and he's never had a RMSD item fail to arrive. He is aware of it happening to others, but it's rare enough for it to be 'spoken of' among posties. A day or two's delay is another matter...
Standard mail, even 'signed-for', is an entirely different matter, and I don't send anything via that route that is of any significant value or I wouldn't be happy just to cough up to refund the buyer. Spirit of the forum, and all that...
Mark is spot on regarding what PO class as missing and it is a 'week' so hang on in there painful though it is.
now then a tip sorry if it seems churlish but
if you are selling a watch with a value at say £ 3'000 via RMSD, as discussed at length you are not covered at all unless you obtain separate insurance /indemnity.
however
if you split the watch into 2 packages head (£2500) and the bracelet (£ 500) and send 2 RMSD's you are covered for each item individually.
yes it costs more and buyer has to assemble but hey at least you have recourse
Indeed.
However, there is one caveat to this method. If you read the various Ts&Cs very carefully, you'll see that the £2500 compensation is the maximum payable on all packages sent by RMSD on any day! Thus, if you use this method, it is important to send the packages on different days. Or, if you send them on the same day, then send them in different transactions at the Post Office such that, if one goes missing, it is not obvious that you sent more than one RMSD package on the same day. Yes, I know, this is ridiculous but it's the way RM want it.
Last edited by markrlondon; 6th December 2016 at 16:47.
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